[Jack_]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Ideal world

Real world

Here you are compacting a complex issue into a false dichotomy you've invented, and yet I'm the one that's being idealistic. Funny that.

Originally Posted by Cherie

highlighting that getting drunk can leave you vulnerable whether male or female is not unhelpful

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think the message to everyone, especially young people, of both genders, should just be to be aware of risk and to look out for each other. The idea that "it should be fine to get blind drunk in an ideal world" is straight up bonkers even if everyone was kind and gentle and no one was ever maliciously attacked. The number of young people who end up wandering off alone drunk and get into accidents, or fall asleep somewhere in the freezing cold and die of hypothermia, is shocking.

Look out for yourself, look out for your friends, be at least somewhat sensible, for a myriad of reasons.

I don't disagree, I already said as much. What I do have an issue with is people with a platform perpetuating a narrative that inadvertently fails to address the root causes of sexual assault in the first place, and focuses more on preventative measures for the victim instead of the assailant.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Jack_

So you saw the other thread, and went searching for an article which erred on the side of victim blaming? I see.

It's not victim blaming in the slightest.

A judge warning women to take care when putting themselves into potentially very dangerous situations is no different to advising someone to install a burglar alarm in their home.

Not having an alarm doesn't make a burglary your fault but there are measures which can be taken to look after yourself as a responsible adult.

Getting completely obliterated to the point where you don't know where you are puts you in a myriad of dangers, not just a potential rape.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Here you are compacting a complex issue into a false dichotomy you've invented, and yet I'm the one that's being idealistic. Funny that.





I don't disagree, I already said as much. What I do have an issue with is people with a platform perpetuating a narrative that inadvertently fails to address the root causes of sexual assault in the first place, and focuses more on preventative measures for the victim instead of the assailant.

Personally I think it's rather naive to believe that all or most perpetrators simply require better education. If they don't appear to get it in this day and age it's because either they have an IQ below 80 or they completely understand the wrong they do and simply don't give a flying **c* or actually get a kick out of being a sicko. Some people are just evil.

I also think potential victims need to be aware of that and take some responsibility to protect themselves. Yes women can wear what they want but don't incapacitate themselves with drink at the same time - it's just common sense.

[Denver]

A Rapist is more likely to attack someone who cant defend themselves so why is it so bad to ask people to look after themselves when they go out drinking?

Common sense says be careful and never leave a club alone especially if you can hardly stand

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Sorry but this kind of discourse isn't helpful in the long run and at its heart is actually quite problematic. People should be able to get as drunk as they like without fearing that they may fall victim to being sexually assaulted. The problem is always with those who commit sexual assaults, nobody else - and while I can understand the sentiment that this judge is expressing, no doubt from a good place - what it does is shifts the narrative to preventative measures to be taken by the victim, instead of preventative measures for the assailant, i.e. addressing the root causes of sexual violence.

It's exactly the same as when people say stuff like 'oh don't wear that, you're asking to be bullied' to kids and try and police their behaviour so they don't fall victim. The point should be to stop bullying in the first place, not try and meander your way around it. This works in the very same way.

I'm afraid, I don't see how you think this.

It's not like curing a disease, some people are just evil, some people are brought up badly and it leads them down various paths in life.

But not all sexual deviants will have the same story, or come from a similar place. So, finding the "root cause" of one isn't going to magically eradicate sexual assaults from society.

You can't magically make crime vanish. But there are things people can do to take care of themselves and each other.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think the message to everyone, especially young people, of both genders, should just be to be aware of risk and to look out for each other. The idea that "it should be fine to get blind drunk in an ideal world" is straight up bonkers even if everyone was kind and gentle and no one was ever maliciously attacked. The number of young people who end up wandering off alone drunk and get into accidents, or fall asleep somewhere in the freezing cold and die of hypothermia, is shocking.

Look out for yourself, look out for your friends, be at least somewhat sensible, for a myriad of reasons.

Yes I agree 100% clearly i would never ever victim blame but as a mother of a 16 year old girl I spend my time warning her to stay with her friends etc etc luckily for me she doesnt drink so far but i would be terrified if she did that she'd end up in a vulnarble position

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

It's not victim blaming in the slightest.

A judge warning women to take care when putting themselves into potentially very dangerous situations is no different to advising someone to install a burglar alarm in their home.

Not having an alarm doesn't make a burglary your fault but there are measures which can be taken to look after yourself as a responsible adult.

Getting completely obliterated to the point where you don't know where you are puts you in a myriad of dangers, not just a potential rape.

Ah, situational crime prevention. Beneficial in many ways but has its drawbacks too, such as displacement over reduction.

What you highlighted actually buttresses my argument. Preventative measures such as these don't actually address the causes of crime in the first place.

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Personally I think it's rather naive to believe that all or most perpetrators simply require better education. If they don't appear to get it in this day and age it's because either they have an IQ below 80 or they completely understand the wrong they do and simply don't give a flying **c* or actually get a kick out of being a sicko. Some people are just evil.

I also think potential victims need to be aware of that and take some responsibility to protect themselves. Yes women can wear what they want but don't incapacitate themselves with drink at the same time - it's just common sense.

And I think its naive to reduce all criminals to such a false dichotomy (seriously what is people's obsession with this...the world is not black or white you know) as 'they're a moron innit' or 'they're a sicko fam, just evil!!!'. It's not exactly that straightforward. If they don't appear to get what in this day and age? This is such a simplistic argument to a very complex problem. We're talking about omnipresent and pervasive discourses of objectification and victim blaming, perpetuated both through the media and in everyday language, that exist in conjunction with other issues such as toxic masculinity and the making of women as vulnerable subjects.

This is not something that can be solved overnight, nor am I suggesting it can. It requires a total rebuilding and reconstructing of society from the ground up. There are plenty of things we can do in the meantime, like improving sex education so that it's not just a simple biology lesson but also encompasses relationship issues, including consent and respect for another person's body. Or reiterating that someone who is comfortable expressing their sexuality through the exposure of their body is not necessarily promiscuous, nor are they an object, nor are they fair game. The media is guilty of a lot of this. There are also inevitably things that we can do that haven't been thought of yet. But while ever we refuse to do this, and instead bury our heads in the sand and reduce the issue of sexual violence to a mantra of 'this is what you must do to not be assaulted', we will solve nothing. Again, that's not to say I don't see the value in looking after and out for yourself - particularly when intoxicated - in fact I expect most people do it without even thinking about it (I know I do). My problem is with the perpetuation of this notion by people with a platform, in particular a judge. By all means look out for yourself, but we should be shifting the conversation to one of 'how can we stop people from committing acts of sexual assault in the first place? What societal causes can we address and how do we change these?'

Originally Posted by Marsh.

I'm afraid, I don't see how you think this.

It's not like curing a disease, some people are just evil, some people are brought up badly and it leads them down various paths in life.

But not all sexual deviants will have the same story, or come from a similar place. So, finding the "root cause" of one isn't going to magically eradicate sexual assaults from society.

You can't magically make crime vanish. But there are things people can do to take care of themselves and each other.

Sorry, the 'born or inherently evil' thing isn't really something I subscribe to - for the most part at least. The rest of your post I do in many ways agree with, and you'll see this evidenced in my response above. It is a complex issue, and no not all crime can ever really be eradicated, but I do think it can be seriously reduced through means that we don't yet do since as a society we're obsessed with retribution.

I can't actually believe I'm entertaining this thread given it was started to provoke a reaction. I actually think a lot can be learned from the TED talk of the woman and man I posted in my thread earlier, and indeed applied to this thread. I don't recall her at any point prescribing her intoxication as a cause of her rape, and the discussion centred around the man's once-held belief that he had a right to her body, as perpetuated through the media and his sense of his own masculinity, which is in many ways the point I'm making.

Anyway, given the threads today I've done a little bit of reading from a couple of the sources on this list. Here's an interesting one:

http://www.thehinducentre.com/multim...i_2677620a.pdf

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Ah, situational crime prevention. Beneficial in many ways but has its drawbacks too, such as displacement over reduction.

What you highlighted actually buttresses my argument. Preventative measures such as these don't actually address the causes of crime in the first place.

They're not meant to.

What? Are people not supposed to take measure to protect themselves and their loved ones whilst waiting for our world's criminals, perverts and general psychopaths to get the education they desperately need?

No. We can't solve crime overnight, we can't magically prevent disgusting sexual abuse, but what we can do is try and not put ourselves into situations that make it easy for things like this to happen to us.

Not putting yourself in a situation where you're face down in the gutter, can't move, can't remember your own name, in the middle of nowhere is not victim blaming. It's called common sense, responsibility and maturity. Rape isn't the only potential problem in cases like that.

Just as much as I'll lock my doors and windows at night, until of course all of the world's thieves, burglars, cheats and lowlives have read the "How to be a decent human being" pamphlet sent out by the local council.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Sorry, the 'born or inherently evil' thing isn't really something I subscribe to - for the most part at least.

That's all well and good.
What I meant was, not all criminals, perverts, deviants and psychos problems can be traced to a bad childhood, an abusive parent, trapped in addictions or bad education and can be remedied. Some people are just bad, know full well right from wrong and choose wrong anyway.

You can't eradicate wrongdoing and evil acts from the world. It's impossible.
So whilst it will always exist, there are things people can do to protect themselves.

How that can be twisted into some form of "victim blaming" is preposterous.

[jennyjuniper]

Originally Posted by Firewire

Yes I think to be safe women should be banned from drinking alcohol because otherwise they'll just get raped and that's not fair on the taxpayer

Now you are just being silly. No-one is saying that women shouldn't drink at all, just that they shouldn't make themselves vulnerable and getting paraletic makes anyone vulnerable.

[arista]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

No they just reported it as first news item on Radio 2 after pick of the Pops (3 pm)so I googled it as it sounded controversial and I had made the Mattress girl thread before your one, which I have not looked at yet i am afraid.

Yes LT and it was on all News TV and all other radio
as well

[arista]

"It's not like curing a disease,
some people are just evil,
some people are brought
up badly and it leads
them down various paths in life. "



Bang On Right Marsh

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Ah, situational crime prevention. Beneficial in many ways but has its drawbacks too, such as displacement over reduction.

What you highlighted actually buttresses my argument. Preventative measures such as these don't actually address the causes of crime in the first place.



And I think its naive to reduce all criminals to such a false dichotomy (seriously what is people's obsession with this...the world is not black or white you know) as 'they're a moron innit' or 'they're a sicko fam, just evil!!!'. It's not exactly that straightforward. If they don't appear to get what in this day and age? This is such a simplistic argument to a very complex problem. We're talking about omnipresent and pervasive discourses of objectification and victim blaming, perpetuated both through the media and in everyday language, that exist in conjunction with other issues such as toxic masculinity and the making of women as vulnerable subjects.

This is not something that can be solved overnight, nor am I suggesting it can. It requires a total rebuilding and reconstructing of society from the ground up. There are plenty of things we can do in the meantime, like improving sex education so that it's not just a simple biology lesson but also encompasses relationship issues, including consent and respect for another person's body. Or reiterating that someone who is comfortable expressing their sexuality through the exposure of their body is not necessarily promiscuous, nor are they an object, nor are they fair game. The media is guilty of a lot of this. There are also inevitably things that we can do that haven't been thought of yet. But while ever we refuse to do this, and instead bury our heads in the sand and reduce the issue of sexual violence to a mantra of 'this is what you must do to not be assaulted', we will solve nothing. Again, that's not to say I don't see the value in looking after and out for yourself - particularly when intoxicated - in fact I expect most people do it without even thinking about it (I know I do). My problem is with the perpetuation of this notion by people with a platform, in particular a judge. By all means look out for yourself, but we should be shifting the conversation to one of 'how can we stop people from committing acts of sexual assault in the first place? What societal causes can we address and how do we change these?'



Sorry, the 'born or inherently evil' thing isn't really something I subscribe to - for the most part at least. The rest of your post I do in many ways agree with, and you'll see this evidenced in my response above. It is a complex issue, and no not all crime can ever really be eradicated, but I do think it can be seriously reduced through means that we don't yet do since as a society we're obsessed with retribution.

I can't actually believe I'm entertaining this thread given it was started to provoke a reaction. I actually think a lot can be learned from the TED talk of the woman and man I posted in my thread earlier, and indeed applied to this thread. I don't recall her at any point prescribing her intoxication as a cause of her rape, and the discussion centred around the man's once-held belief that he had a right to her body, as perpetuated through the media and his sense of his own masculinity, which is in many ways the point I'm making.

Anyway, given the threads today I've done a little bit of reading from a couple of the sources on this list. Here's an interesting one:

http://www.thehinducentre.com/multim...i_2677620a.pdf

I think pseudo-intellectuals in this field get too caught up in the language of action rather than action itself, wearing their intellectual brains out with writing volumes of theoretical rhetoric leaving little time for anything else.

[Cal.]

She could have said it in a different way but I think some of what she's said is true. Women aren't to blame for getting raped when they're drunk obviously, but it's just a caution that you are more vulnerable whilst intoxicated. I don't see it as a 'you're not allowed to drink because a man might rape you' - just making sure women don't accidentally put themselves at risk when they have been drinking.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

They're not meant to.

What? Are people not supposed to take measure to protect themselves and their loved ones whilst waiting for our world's criminals, perverts and general psychopaths to get the education they desperately need?

No. We can't solve crime overnight, we can't magically prevent disgusting sexual abuse, but what we can do is try and not put ourselves into situations that make it easy for things like this to happen to us.

Not putting yourself in a situation where you're face down in the gutter, can't move, can't remember your own name, in the middle of nowhere is not victim blaming. It's called common sense, responsibility and maturity. Rape isn't the only potential problem in cases like that.

Just as much as I'll lock my doors and windows at night, until of course all of the world's thieves, burglars, cheats and lowlives have read the "How to be a decent human being" pamphlet sent out by the local council.

Well put.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Sorry but this kind of discourse isn't helpful in the long run and at its heart is actually quite problematic. People should be able to get as drunk as they like without fearing that they may fall victim to being sexually assaulted. The problem is always with those who commit sexual assaults, nobody else - and while I can understand the sentiment that this judge is expressing, no doubt from a good place - what it does is shifts the narrative to preventative measures to be taken by the victim, instead of preventative measures for the assailant, i.e. addressing the root causes of sexual violence.

It's exactly the same as when people say stuff like 'oh don't wear that, you're asking to be bullied' to kids and try and police their behaviour so they don't fall victim. The point should be to stop bullying in the first place, not try and meander your way around it. This works in the very same way.

I agree with this but at the same time..I guess it doesn't help to be careful. Yes people should be able to get drunk without worrying someone will attack them...but thats not the world we live in so exercising caution is a good idea.

Anyway, its not like the judge could have just said 'men, don't rape'. No attention at all would have been given to that

[Livia]

The Highway Code say "give way to pedestrians at all times". Cars aren't allowed to run you over... but that doesn't mean to say I'm going to wander across the A13 at rush hour. People don't do that because although someone running you over is illegal, it could happen.

Similarly, women must take responsibility for their own safety when it comes to rape. They can go out, get drunk, fall over with their skirt up round their waist, all those things that somehow, some people think should be their right... but make sure you are with mates, that you have a cab booked... don't get caught out and left alone. Take steps to ensure your own safety because PREVENTION IS BETTER THAN CURE. This isn't victim shaming, it's taking responsibility.

[Lostie!]

It's pretty ridiculous that we're now at the point where simply reminding people to take precautions in potentially dangerous situations is now being twisted into "victim blaming". No where did she actually suggest drunk women who are raped are to blame for what happened to them but let's not let that get in the way of a good spot of self-righteous moral outrage.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Lostie!

It's pretty ridiculous that we're now at the point where simply reminding people to take precautions in potentially dangerous situations is now being twisted into "victim blaming". No where did she actually suggest drunk women who are raped are to blame for what happened to them but let's not let that get in the way of a good spot of self-righteous moral outrage.

Well said.

[jennyjuniper]

Originally Posted by Cal.

She could have said it in a different way but I think some of what she's said is true. Women aren't to blame for getting raped when they're drunk obviously, but it's just a caution that you are more vulnerable whilst intoxicated. I don't see it as a 'you're not allowed to drink because a man might rape you' - just making sure women don't accidentally put themselves at risk when they have been drinking.

Exactly. If you know you are going out and will probablćy be drinking a lot, then make sure you are not alone etc.,

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Lostie!

It's pretty ridiculous that we're now at the point where simply reminding people to take precautions in potentially dangerous situations is now being twisted into "victim blaming". No where did she actually suggest drunk women who are raped are to blame for what happened to them but let's not let that get in the way of a good spot of self-righteous moral outrage.

agreed. this is yet another insane end product of a vile offshoot of a perverted form of feminism. its reached the point where they encourage women to get so smashed they may get found dead in the road but no one dare warn them of their stupid behaviour just in case in offends a feminst

[user104658]

Originally Posted by the truth

agreed. this is yet another insane end product of a vile offshoot of a perverted form of feminism. its reached the point where they encourage women to get so smashed they may get found dead in the road but no one dare warn them of their stupid behaviour just in case in offends a feminst

TBH this is why I think the rhetoric does need to shift away from "You might get raped!" to reminding young people that if they get themselves that level of drunk, and don't sensibly stay in groups looking out for each other, absolutely anything could end up happening to them. A whole array of awful things. Sexual assault being one of them but not even the most common. Plenty of them don't even involve other people at all... everyone in the world could be gentle, nice, helpful sorts who would never harm a fly and people would STILL be at risk with reckless drinking habits. Haven't there been at least three or four fairly high profile incidents quite recently of young people falling into rivers drunk and washing up dead?

The idea that "it should be fine to do whatever you want because no one should be out to hurt you" is misguided for those reasons... as well as simply being sadly unrealistic. The VAST majority of people you encounter - even the "dodgy seeming" ones that people tend to be wary of - are actually not out to hurt anyone... but there are a small number who are. And there always will be. There is no way to tackle it. It's not a matter of education. These attacks don't happen because the perpetrator "wasn't aware that what they were doing was wrong" - the idea is insane - the perpetrators simply, in that moment, do not care.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

TBH this is why I think the rhetoric does need to shift away from "You might get raped!" to reminding young people that if they get themselves that level of drunk, and don't sensibly stay in groups looking out for each other, absolutely anything could end up happening to them. A whole array of awful things. Sexual assault being one of them but not even the most common. Plenty of them don't even involve other people at all... everyone in the world could be gentle, nice, helpful sorts who would never harm a fly and people would STILL be at risk with reckless drinking habits. Haven't there been at least three or four fairly high profile incidents quite recently of young people falling into rivers drunk and washing up dead?

The idea that "it should be fine to do whatever you want because no one should be out to hurt you" is misguided for those reasons... as well as simply being sadly unrealistic. The VAST majority of people you encounter - even the "dodgy seeming" ones that people tend to be wary of - are actually not out to hurt anyone... but there are a small number who are. And there always will be. There is no way to tackle it. It's not a matter of education. These attacks don't happen because the perpetrator "wasn't aware that what they were doing was wrong" - the idea is insane - the perpetrators simply, in that moment, do not care.

agreed , sadly its another insane form of political correctness / feminism that has simply wiped out common sense and basic communication

[Marsh.]

Why are you bringing feminism into it? It's nothing to do with it.