[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Madelienes mother wasn't present either

Very true Kaz

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Kate is an anesthest as far as I'm aware

GP who trained in anaesthetics

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

GP who trained in anaesthetics

ah thanks Chuff

[Niamh.]

This from Pat Browns book, all this from statements made from Gerry McCann, Kate McCann and one the friends Jane Tanner :

Spoiler:

On subsequent analysis of the main statements, and taking into account the McCann’s very
early insistence that Jane Tanner’s sighting was of the abductor with Madeleine, that could
no longer be sustained. This fact had been recognised by Gerry McCann as early as 1:00am
on 4th May. [1]
The McCanns themselves clearly both accept that the “Window of Opportunity” for an
abduction was small. During one interview Kate McCann said - in a high pitched and
emotional voice - “Yyyeeah, yeah you’re right. It was a very small window of opportunity
but they saw it and then *click*!!!!!! Here Kate makes a clicking sound with her tongue
and a simultaneous downward chopping motion with her right hand. [2]
On 10th May 2007 Gerry McCann made a statement in which he confirmed this, although at
that time he seemed equivocal about the Jane Tanner sighting.
The passage bears repeating in full, for the avoidance of doubt.
“The deponent had had the wrong idea that MATHEW had seen the bedroom shutters closed
when he was there at 21H30, and therefore he thought the disappearance would have taken
place between 21h30 and 22h00, but presently he is fully convinced that the abduction took
place during the period of time between his check at 21h05 and MATHEW's visit at 21H30. It
was not until about 01h00 on 4 May 2007 that he learned through RUSSEL that his partner,
JANE, at around 21h10, saw a man crossing the top of the road with a child in his arms, that
may or may not have been his daughter MADELEINE. [3]
Quite how small was that window and the consequences that follow are examined here.
From their Police statements we learn the following :-
• The McCanns left the apartment to go for dinner around 8:30pm [4]
• Gerry McCann left the Tapas restaurant at 9:04 pm, walked back and re-entered the
apartment. He did a physical check on the children. He saw all three. [5]
Observation 1 : From the absence of any further comment in any of his statements it
must be assumed that the front door, the patio door, the garden gate and the security
gate, and the windows and shutters and curtains in the children’s bedroom, were all in
order.
Observation 2 : It takes one minute to walk at a normal speed from the Tapas bar to
the small gate at the bottom of the outside stairs. It would take around a further 20
seconds to open the gate, climb the stairs, open the patio doors quietly, enter the
apartment and reach the children’s bedroom. [6 ]
• He remained in the apartment for a little time, two or three minutes [7] recording that he
stood in the children’s room “and thought to himself, She’s so beautiful.” and took the
opportunity to use the bathroom. He then left the apartment through the patio doors, and went
down the outside stairs, through the gate and out onto the street. There he met Jeremy
(referred to throughout as Jez ) Wilkins. The two men spoke for a short time, estimated at
between 3 and 4, or 3 to 5 minutes. [8] [9 ] or “only a few minutes” [10]
• Jane Tanner left the Tapas bar at between 9:05 and 9:10 pm. Significantly she times her
own departure at five minutes after Gerry’s [11] She walked past the men whilst they were
talking. She reports seeing the two men [12] although the men state they did not see her.
[13]
• Immediately after passing the two men Jane Tanner states that she saw a man carrying a
child along the road across the top of the street, from left to right. The child was being carried
flat, across the forearms, and Jane Tanner saw its feet, which were towards her. She then
continued to her own apartment. [14]
• Gerry McCann then returned to the dining table in the Tapas bar. This time is given as
between 9:10 and 9:15 pm [15]
Working purely from the statements of Gerry McCann, Jeremy Wilkins, and Jane Tanner,
and adding the time as we proceed we can estimate the following -
Gerry McCann left the Tapas bar 9:05 pm
Arrived at gate at bottom of stairs 9:06
Climbed stairs, entered apartment and went to bedroom 9:06.30s
Looked at children and had “proud father” moment 9:07
Used toilet 9:08
Left apartment, closing doors, went down stairs, met Jez Wilkins 9:09
Talked to Jez Wilkins 9:09 - 9:13 pm
Jane Tanner left Tapas bar 9:10 pm
JT arrived bottom of stairs, saw and passed the two men 9:11
JT saw abductor carrying child across top of road 9:11.05s
There is therefore, on their own timings, just two minutes and five seconds for the intruder
to get in, seize Madeleine, get out again, and make his way round to the top of the road. To
walk from the front door or window of the apartment to the left behind the low wall, then
across the car park, then right to the corner of the street takes around 45 seconds. and a
further 5 seconds to cross the street. [16]
He has therefore around one minute and twenty seconds to enter, commit the crime, and
exit. This is an important point for the understanding of what happened.
Let it be stated once again.
If the man seen by Jane Tanner was the “abductor’ and was carrying Madeleine,
as the McCanns insist, he had available to him the time from Gerry McCann’s leaving the
apartment to the sighting by Jane Tanner. And no more.
In this time the intruder has to
• Enter the apartment
• Sedate all three children - in the dark
• Select Madeleine as the victim - in the dark
• Open the shutters and window - if he used the front door to enter
• Pick Madeleine out of her bed - in the dark
• Turn her round so that her head is now to his left, rather than to his right,
which is the way he would have approached her in the bed.
• Exit the apartment, either through the opened window and shutters, or
through the front door, which he must then close silently behind him.
• Walk to the left along the path in front of the apartment, walk straight ahead
across the car park, and then walk to the right along the road, and cross the
street in front of Jane Tanner, the father of the very child he had just abducted, and
another man who has his own child in a buggy.
Taking into account the travelling time, he has around one minute and twenty seconds in
which to achieve the first seven items on the list.
Clearly he could not enter through the patio door within this time frame, since Gerry was
standing either at the bottom of the steps, or on the other side of the road, depending whether
we follow the statement of Gerry McCann, Jez Wilson, [17] [18] or Jane Tanner. (During the
televised “documentary reconstruction” Gerry McCann’s version took precedence, and
viewers were treated to the sight of Jane Tanner being reduced to tears as her detailed
recollection was publicly destroyed.) [19]
For our purposes this important contradiction is, for the moment, irrelevant.
As Kate has observed, “What may be important is that all three of them were there.” [20]
It is indeed a very important point, as it fixes forever Jane Tanner’s sighting relative to Gerry
McCann’s leaving the apartment, in a way which cannot be altered by debate or legal
argument.
It could only be altered by admission of error, but Jane Tanner has several times then and
since publicly insisted that she was telling the truth. [21] [22]
Possible scenarios.
One scenario is therefore that immediately on Gerry McCann’s leaving the apartment, the
intruder entered though the front door by means unknown, or, having forced up the shutters,
propped or jammed them in a high position, forced open the window, and climbed in. This is
not supported by examination of the operation of the shutters, or the locking mechanism of
the windows. No implement to support the shutters was found, and no forensic traces were
seen on the window sill, or on the windows.
A second scenario has more recently been put forward to the effect that the intruder may have
already been in the apartment as Gerry McCann entered. This would allow him a few more
seconds or fractions of a minute in which to complete his crime. And in fact we find that this
was raised as a possibility by Dr Gerry McCann himself some time later. [23]
But the apartment is largely open-plan, there are only three doors, to the bedrooms and the
bathroom, and this theory leads to some vague stories being suggested about where the
intruder might have been secreted. None is persuasive. “Behind the door”, or “in the
cupboard,” have been offered. Examination of the photos of the bedroom, and indeed of the
entire apartment may lead a researcher to question this. [24]
Gerry McCann recounts seeing all the children, and having the “proud father” moment, and of
looking down at Madeleine. In none of his three statements does he report the smell of
anaesthetic gas or the presence of any other anaesthetic paraphernalia, and we conclude
that this procedure must therefore have been performed after he left.
Kate was initially sure that the children had been sedated.

[longstar]

lets look at the death of stuart lubbock in barrymore's house, it is said that he died before he was floating in the pool and also why where there injuries to stuart's anal, the police said that stuart suffered a violent sexual assault before he died, and he did not drown, and they said that he was thrown into that pool, the police knew that it was now a murder case, but they just dropped it, and all the fingers are pointed at barrymore, when there was a number of people in that house, so there was a mix of cover ups and blundering from the force, now the portuguese police where very close in getting the mccann parents to confess in what they know in what happened to maddie, then are police force flew to portugal and just said that the portuguese force where wrong, that proved that are force just did another cover up and blundering, but one thing that does stick out there is that why is scotland yard protecting the mccanns, there was a guy who had written a book in what really happened to maddie, and they jailed him, why, to shut him up from telling the truth, it seems a bit strange that the police can't tell in what happened in barrymore house and even in what happened to maddie, but they easily knew in what happened to shannon mathews and quickly knew that mick philpott killed his kids, look at ben needham, never once did his family get any support from the government or the police, why because he is from a working class background, you have to be from a middle or upper class background and have a respected job and be rich and famous to think you are good as gold in that life, if the mccann parents where living on a council estate, and not working, they would have there children taken from them, not once did social services try and have there children taken from them.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

This from Pat Browns book, all this from statements made from Gerry McCann, Kate McCann and one the friends Jane Tanner :

.[/spoiler]

You certainly sparked my interest in this case Niamh. I've done a lot of reading since your last thread and have had a change of heart to the disappearance of Madeleine. Its all very suspicious.

I had a thought after reading your spoiler; could Madeleine of been already dead in her bed when Gerry stood looking over her and thinking how beautiful she was on his final visit to the house. Did Gerry let a man in who the Mccann's had paid off to get rid of her body. Was he talking to that other man to distract him from a man leaving the house with the body of a child? I wonder if that man was standing with his back to the house.

Another thing I was reading recently was the coffin that was laying in wake in a nearby church. The lid of that coffin remained closed by the relatives and it was a cremation. Could Madeleine's body of been cremated along with their relative?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

You certainly sparked my interest in this case Niamh. I've done a lot of reading since your last thread and have had a change of heart to the disappearance of Madeleine. Its all very suspicious.

I had a thought after reading your spoiler; could Madeleine of been already dead in her bed when Gerry stood looking over her and thinking how beautiful she was on his final visit to the house. Did Gerry let a man in who the Mccann's had paid off to get rid of her body. Was he talking to that other man to distract him from a man leaving the house with the body of a child? I wonder if that man was standing with his back to the house.

Another thing I was reading recently was the coffin that was laying in wake in a nearby church. The lid of that coffin remained closed by the relatives and it was a cremation. Could Madeleine's body of been cremated along with their relative?

It is very suspicious, just the fact that all the friends and the McCanns statements seemed to change all the time alone is suspicious. You could be right about paying the guy off but personally I think Jane Tanner made that up about seeing him

And yes I think the coffin is a very plausible theory

[Vicky.]

The coffin makes more sense than the freezer I think. Especially given the McCanns were given keys to the local church (proven)

However, the freezer thing...there seems to be a bit of proof for that given DNA was found in the hire car and the material was consistent with...a frozen body thawing. Along with Gerry disposing of a freezer/fridge.

IMO not one theory makes sense completely. but the abduction theory I find least likely of all.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

The coffin makes more sense than the freezer I think. Especially given the McCanns were given keys to the local church (proven)

However, the freezer thing...there seems to be a bit of proof for that given DNA was found in the hire car and the material was consistent with...a frozen body thawing. Along with Gerry disposing of a freezer/fridge.

IMO not one theory makes sense completely. but the abduction theory I find least likely of all.

Well both could be true Vicky, she could have been put there and then moved to the coffin a while later. Them dumping a freezer in a rented apartment makes zero sense, who does that?

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

You certainly sparked my interest in this case Niamh. I've done a lot of reading since your last thread and have had a change of heart to the disappearance of Madeleine. Its all very suspicious.

I had a thought after reading your spoiler; could Madeleine of been already dead in her bed when Gerry stood looking over her and thinking how beautiful she was on his final visit to the house. Did Gerry let a man in who the Mccann's had paid off to get rid of her body. Was he talking to that other man to distract him from a man leaving the house with the body of a child? I wonder if that man was standing with his back to the house.

Another thing I was reading recently was the coffin that was laying in wake in a nearby church. The lid of that coffin remained closed by the relatives and it was a cremation. Could Madeleine's body of been cremated along with their relative?

IMO and lots of others opinion in Maddie groups, Maddie died a couple of days before the alarm was raised, giving Mcs time to clean 5a, and concoct alibis with the tapas group ,IMO Gerry was moving Maddies body on "Alarm night" when the man walking his baby came past, Tanner who was his look out failed to see the man, so Gerry laid Maddie in the flowerbed ( hence death scent found there )and went over talking to the man to stop him being suspicious and to see if he had seen anything ....Tanner knowing she had nearly got Gerry caught offered to come up with a "sighting" IMO Maddie was taken to Huelva 25 days after her demise (hence death scent in hire car ,and the unaccounted for milage and hours on the trip )Huelva has acid baths where Maddie body would never be found and promoted Gerrys "Find the body and prove we killed her" comment on their return ,neighbour reported hire car boot left open day and night after Huelva

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

IMO and lots of others opinion in Maddie groups, Maddie died a couple of days before the alarm was raised, giving Mcs time to clean 5a, and concoct alibis with the tapas group ,IMO Gerry was moving Maddies body on "Alarm night" when the man walking his baby came past, Tanner who was his look out failed to see the man, so Gerry laid Maddie in the flowerbed ( hence death scent found there )and went over talking to the man to stop him being suspicious and to see if he had seen anything ....Tanner knowing she had nearly got Gerry caught offered to come up with a "sighting" IMO Maddie was taken to Huelva 25 days after her demise (hence death scent in hire car ,and the unaccounted for milage and hours on the trip )Huelva has acid baths where Maddie body would never be found and promoted Gerrys "Find the body and prove we killed her" comment on their return ,neighbour reported hire car boot left open day and night after Huelva

She was seen up until about 2pm on the day of 'the disappearance' though wasn't she? Different people saying they saw her.

The Huelva thing always interested me about this. So sick if this is what happened but does explain the arrogance of 'find the body' and such

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

She was seen up until about 2pm on the day of 'the disappearance' though wasn't she? Different people saying they saw her.

The Huelva thing always interested me about this. So sick if this is what happened but does explain the arrogance of 'find the body' and such

Tanners girls is the spitting image of Maddie and is widely believed to have been used to make people think she was Maddie

McCanns put off going to Huelva the day they planned to go as Gerry "had an upset stomach " so went on a bank holiday, shops all closed, and like a ghost town ,I've driven past Huelva when in Portugal, its a tiny one horse town ,why if you want to get massive attention to what happened not go to Seville a big town and they would have passed there to go to quite Huelva, IMO thats where Maddie remains were left ,have you seen the photo of Gerry packing the car up with posters for the trip wearing rubber gloves? and a box of rubber gloves in the boot ,why would you need rubber gloves ?

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by longstar

lets look at the death of stuart lubbock in barrymore's house, it is said that he died before he was floating in the pool and also why where there injuries to stuart's anal, the police said that stuart suffered a violent sexual assault before he died, and he did not drown, and they said that he was thrown into that pool, the police knew that it was now a murder case, but they just dropped it, and all the fingers are pointed at barrymore, when there was a number of people in that house, so there was a mix of cover ups and blundering from the force, now the portuguese police where very close in getting the mccann parents to confess in what they know in what happened to maddie, then are police force flew to portugal and just said that the portuguese force where wrong, that proved that are force just did another cover up and blundering, but one thing that does stick out there is that why is scotland yard protecting the mccanns, there was a guy who had written a book in what really happened to maddie, and they jailed him, why, to shut him up from telling the truth, it seems a bit strange that the police can't tell in what happened in barrymore house and even in what happened to maddie, but they easily knew in what happened to shannon mathews and quickly knew that mick philpott killed his kids, look at ben needham, never once did his family get any support from the government or the police, why because he is from a working class background, you have to be from a middle or upper class background and have a respected job and be rich and famous to think you are good as gold in that life, if the mccann parents where living on a council estate, and not working, they would have there children taken from them, not once did social services try and have there children taken from them.

It's not often I agree with one of your posts, but there's always an exception to the rule

I've shared this a few times before but it's worth doing so again. Owen Jones dedicates a whole chapter of Chavs to the Maddie case (or rather, a comparison of attitudes towards her's and the Shannon Matthews one), and it's a striking example of how class relations are implicit in both the responses to similar stories such as these, and also in their treatment by the authorities. Capitalism has a lot to answer for:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...page&q&f=false

'Why Madeleine? Some commentators were remarkably honest about why, of all the injustices in the world, it was the tragedy of this one little girl that provoked such anguish. 'This kind of thing doesn't usually happen to people like us', lamented Allison Pearson in the Daily Mail. What Pearson meant by people like her was people from comfortable, middle-class backgrounds. Kidnappings, stabbings, murders; those are things you almost expected to happen to people living in Peckham or Glasgow. This sort of tragedy was not supposed to happen to folks you might bump into doing the weekly shop at Waitrose'. (2011, pp. 14-15)

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Jack_

It's not often I agree with one of your posts, but there's always an exception to the rule

I've shared this a few times before but it's worth doing so again. Owen Jones dedicates a whole chapter of Chavs to the Maddie case (or rather, a comparison of attitudes towards her's and the Shannon Matthews one), and it's a striking example of how class relations are implicit in both the responses to similar stories such as these, and also in their treatment by the authorities. Capitalism has a lot to answer for:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...page&q&f=false

Class certainly is a reason why the McCanns neglect is forgiven by some people when you know if it were a couple from some council estate they would have been made out to be scumbags and the twins probaly would have been taken off them

[Smithy]

I find some of the theories hard to believe, such as the friends helping them cover up her death why?), or pretending their friends daughter was maddie (again, why? Surely someone would have still noticed there was another little blonde girl missing)

But reading through these threads has definitely made me a lot more suspicious to what actually happened

[longstar]

from 2007 to 2009, the mccann's where harassing and intimating the staff at ocean club, and the staff at ocean club hold the key to what the mccann's where doing in the days before and after the abduction, and we know why they would not tell the real truth when the mccann's have friends in very high positions of power, and the the mccann's did not want anyone to find out that they heavily satated maddie, and there could be a very deep level that maddie was abused in some way in her short life, because an autopsy would spot that on first sight, but I can't say anymore on that because the mccann's could have are forum shut down, because of what we all have said, they have shut down other forums for saying things that they don't want found out, but there is something else to add, some people in middle and upper class backgrounds would have there children being molested and buggered by other higher class people, and its still happening to this day, its really a perverted ritual to them, if maddie died in an accident, just the same way as a kid runs across the road or trips into the garden pond, because you took your eye off the clock, or you are in another room or you are somewhere more far away, why would the mccanns depose their own kids body, and have her never be found, there is something that the mcann's don't want anyone to find out in what happened to her in life before she died, and its very very disturbing.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by longstar

from 2007 to 2009, the mccann's where harassing and intimating the staff at ocean club, and the staff at ocean club hold the key to what the mccann's where doing in the days before and after the abduction, and we know why they would not tell the real truth when the mccann's have friends in very high positions of power, and the the mccann's did not want anyone to find out that they heavily satated maddie, and there could be a very deep level that maddie was abused in some way in her short life, because an autopsy would spot that on first sight, but I can't say anymore on that because the mccann's could have are forum shut down, because of what we all have said, they have shut down other forums for saying things that they don't want found out, but there is something else to add, some people in middle and upper class backgrounds would have there children being molested and buggered by other higher class people, and its still happening to this day, its really a perverted ritual to them, if maddie died in an accident, just the same way as a kid runs across the road or trips into the garden pond, because you took your eye off the clock, or you are in another room or you are somewhere more far away, why would the mccanns depose their own kids body, and have her never be found, there is something that the mcann's don't want anyone to find out in what happened to her in life before she died, and its very very disturbing.

Talk about conspiracy theories.

[jaxie]

It's all very disturbing and thought provoking but where a lot of the theories fall down for me is in the idea that their friends would help them cover it up. Why would they do that? It doesn't really make sense to me and the more people involved in the idea of a cover up makes the whole thing less viable to do, keep quiet etc. A crowd secret isn't a secret for very long.

I've been quite shocked to learn that it's a thing for many parents to drug their own kids quite casually and regularly. I never would have dreamed of doing that to mine. A friend with young children says mum's talk about drugging the kids with calpol quite openly at the school gate. The idea is irresponsible and outrageous to me.

[chuff me dizzy]

Marco Pierre White Jnr ,has put the cat amongst the pigeons with this tweet

“Kate and Gerry MacCann are *********g guilty sick mother *********s defiantly killed there daughter. Look at money (dollar sign) they’ve made out of it in 10 years”

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

Marco Pierre White Jnr ,has put the cat amongst the pigeons with this tweet

“Kate and Gerry MacCann are *********g guilty sick mother *********s defiantly killed there daughter. Look at money (dollar sign) they’ve made out of it in 10 years”

What a Prat trying to make a name for himself by spouting such controversial s***e. Total hypocrite, even the police don't think that. Vile creature.

Unfortunately sad cases such as this bring all the low life's out from under their rocks.

[thesheriff443]

Watched a program Las night man got sentenced to 7 years for attacking a woman he did not do it, he had appeals but they were rejected so he served the seven years, after his time was up he went in front of the parol board because hr maintained his innocence he did not do any rehabilitation so they considered him high risk and gave another ten years after serving 17 years of hell and being attacked over that period he got someone on his side to re examine the evidence, turns out the dna they used to convict him was never even tested, to 40 minuts for jugdes to free him the next day he was released with 48 pound travel warrant and no other support.

[DemolitionRed]

The Gasper statement is really concerning. They had been on previous group holiday with the McCann's and overheard a conversation between Gerry and David Payne that really disturbed them.

This is a really interesting interview with an American crime speech analyst. He sounds confidently certain that the McCann's are hiding the truth and from the words they used during their interviews. He shows how they made an 'embedded confession' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PgXizBxn-8

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

Watched a program Las night man got sentenced to 7 years for attacking a woman he did not do it, he had appeals but they were rejected so he served the seven years, after his time was up he went in front of the parol board because hr maintained his innocence he did not do any rehabilitation so they considered him high risk and gave another ten years after serving 17 years of hell and being attacked over that period he got someone on his side to re examine the evidence, turns out the dna they used to convict him was never even tested, to 40 minuts for jugdes to free him the next day he was released with 48 pound travel warrant and no other support.

What does that have to do withtgis case though?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

The Gasper statement is really concerning. They had been on previous group holiday with the McCann's and overheard a conversation between Gerry and David Payne that really disturbed them.

This is a really interesting interview with an American crime speech analyst. He sounds confidently certain that the McCann's are hiding the truth and from the words they used during their interviews. He shows how they made an 'embedded confession' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PgXizBxn-8

Oh yeah thats a great video DR, Peter Hyatt is very interesting to listen too. Also re the Gasper Statements, they have nothing to gain by lying

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

IMO and lots of others opinion in Maddie groups, Maddie died a couple of days before the alarm was raised, giving Mcs time to clean 5a, and concoct alibis with the tapas group ,IMO Gerry was moving Maddies body on "Alarm night" when the man walking his baby came past, Tanner who was his look out failed to see the man, so Gerry laid Maddie in the flowerbed ( hence death scent found there )and went over talking to the man to stop him being suspicious and to see if he had seen anything ....Tanner knowing she had nearly got Gerry caught offered to come up with a "sighting" IMO Maddie was taken to Huelva 25 days after her demise (hence death scent in hire car ,and the unaccounted for milage and hours on the trip )Huelva has acid baths where Maddie body would never be found and promoted Gerrys "Find the body and prove we killed her" comment on their return ,neighbour reported hire car boot left open day and night after Huelva

I'm going to go and read up about Huelva.