[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

But didnt niamh just say the ira did suffer some human rights interference?

Not just the IRA which is the point I was making but who cares if innocent Irish people were punished, eh?

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Scrapping human rights laws will apply to everyone, not just 'the bad ones' unfortunately. A balance is needed. I do agree we should be able to deport without all the hooha...but that wouldn't have helped these poor people :/

Oh vicky that is so untrue.

This **** that appeared on the jihadi next door programme, if things had been in place then he would have either been locked up or deported and every single person who died on saturday night and since would all still be alive and enjoying life.

[Anaesthesia]

Originally Posted by parmnion

But didnt niamh just say the ira did suffer some human rights interference?

Yes she did. And ordinary Irish people had to suffer the suspicion and hatred and be lumped in with them...causing rightful injustice and feelings of marginalisation which in turn only lead to bitterness, hatred, and an increased likelihood of radicalisation.

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Not just the IRA which is the point I was making but who cares if innocent Irish people were punished, eh?

Well that was a massive leap from reading my post that corrected an innacuracy to accusations of people not caring about innocent irish citizens.


Course people and me care about innocent lives being lost...what the **** do you think all the uproar about saturday is about?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Well that was a massive leap from reading my post that corrected an innacuracy to accusations of people not caring about innocent irish citizens.


Course people and me care about innocent lives being lost...what the **** do you think all the uproar about saturday is about?

I didn't say innocent lives being lost, i said innocent people being persecuted, i think you read my post wrong now

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I didn't say innocent lives being lost, i said innocent people being persecuted, i think you read my post wrong now

True.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yup nail on the head right there. Which is crazy considering that most of ISIS victims are Muslims.

Just had a really weird thing happen on the bus which reminded me of how loud I must talk. Was on a bit of a rant to Gavin (why I rant at him about stuff like this I don't know though...given he agrees with me on most issues) about how our media ignore news elsewhere when it suits them...how people keep saying 'Muslims should tell ISIS to stop' and ridiculous things like that. Basically, I told him about the 160 Muslims killed by ISIS yesterday and how thousands are killed each month by ISIS so noone hates ISIS more than Muslim people. Yet people seem to think all Muslims should bear blame for ISIS. And 2 people on the bus randomly joined the conversation lol. Turned out they agreed with me and they are sick to death of having to argue this point against ignorant people who refuse to look further than the Sun headlines for their news.

I then went quiet for a bit, embarrassed that I had been talking loud enough for the whole bus to hear (mind, there were only 5 people on the bus except us, luckily) then apparently forgot about this and started going on about how we are up Trumps arse and how we have to stay that way until we know how Brexit turns out trade deal wise...and some older guy turned round and said 'well theres enough room up Trumps arse for us all to fit' and everyone started sniggering...then I got off the bus.

Nice story

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Just had a really weird thing happen on the bus which reminded me of how loud I must talk. Was on a bit of a rant to Gavin (why I rant at him about stuff like this I don't know though...given he agrees with me on most issues) about how our media ignore news elsewhere when it suits them...how people keep saying 'Muslims should tell ISIS to stop' and ridiculous things like that. Basically, I told him about the 160 Muslims killed by ISIS yesterday and how thousands are killed each month by ISIS so noone hates ISIS more than Muslim people. Yet people seem to think all Muslims should bear blame for ISIS. And 2 people on the bus randomly joined the conversation lol. Turned out they agreed with me and they are sick to death of having to argue this point against ignorant people who refuse to look further than the Sun headlines for their news.

I then went quiet for a bit, embarrassed that I had been talking loud enough for the whole bus to hear (mind, there were only 5 people on the bus except us, luckily) then apparently forgot about this and started going on about how we are up Trumps arse and how we have to stay that way until we know how Brexit turns out trade deal wise...and some older guy turned round and said 'well theres enough room up Trumps arse for us all to fit' and everyone started sniggering...then I got off the bus.

Nice story

That's Hilarious

Oh was just on FB there and they had a live stream of a group of 100 Muslim leaders paying tribute at the London bridge memorial area where the flowers are and that, and my god Vicky, the vast majority of comments popping up were just awful. "too late now" "Why aren't their more of you" "Have you got a suicide vest on" etc etc etc ...................can't do right for doing wrong

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

That's Hilarious

Oh was just on FB there and they had a live stream of a group of 100 Muslim leaders paying tribute at the London bridge memorial area where the flowers are and that, and my god Vicky, the vast majority of comments popping up were just awful. "too late now" "Why aren't their more of you" "Have you got a suicide vest on" etc etc etc ...................can't do right for doing wrong

Yup have seen stuff like that before. Its awful how many think that way. really really awful and it genuinely upsets me. As if normal everday Muslims could do anything at all to stop these attacks.

When people I know start saying stuff about these attacks and how Muslims 'should be standing up against ISIS' and stuff..I always make a point of asking what the **** they should do in order to please people. And noone ever has an answer. I always point out how ISIS have killed a HELL of a lot more Muslim people than westerners..people seem to be shocked when they hear that and it does tend to shut them up and make them think.

I mean, when there was the attack on the Tunisian beach and the locals all stood around the Brits...was that reported much? Was it ****. The attack was reported on, but the fact that these 'horrible Muslims' protected 'us' was left out. And when it wasn't left out...the comments on the articles were all along the lines of 'rargh, they probably were actually part of the attack, this is just to make themselves look good, was all fake' and stuff. When people talk of that attack, the fact that normal Muslims were the ****ing heroes in it never seems to get a mention.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yup have seen stuff like that before. Its awful how many think that way. really really awful and it genuinely upsets me. As if normal everday Muslims could do anything at all to stop these attacks.

When people I know start saying stuff about these attacks and how Muslims 'should be standing up against ISIS' and stuff..I always make a point of asking what the **** they should do in order to please people. And noone ever has an answer. I always point out how ISIS have killed a HELL of a lot more Muslim people than westerners..people seem to be shocked when they hear that and it does tend to shut them up and make them think.

I mean, when there was the attack on the Tunisian beach and the locals all stood around the Brits...was that reported much? Was it ****. The attack was reported on, but the fact that these 'horrible Muslims' protected 'us' was left out. And when it wasn't left out...the comments on the articles were all along the lines of 'rargh, they probably were actually part of the attack, this is just to make themselves look good, was all fake' and stuff. When people talk of that attack, the fact that normal Muslims were the ****ing heroes in it never seems to get a mention.

yep and if you point any of that stuff out you don't care about the victims blah blah blah

Also to add, what "ordinary muslims" can do according to alot of people is stop hiding terrorists amongst them but we've already heard stories of muslims having reported people who tried to recruit them and nothing was done about it

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Oh vicky that is so untrue.

This **** that appeared on the jihadi next door programme, if things had been in place then he would have either been locked up or deported and every single person who died on saturday night and since would all still be alive and enjoying life.

Every single person who died on Saturday would have been alive? There were 2 other people carrying out the attack?

I get what you are saying but I think its a very dangerous route to be going down where, for example someone can be locked up on suspicion of doing something, when they may not have even been doing that if that makes sense? This will affect us all...not just the bad people.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-of-terrorists

Starmer, a former director of public prosecutions who oversaw dozens of terror cases, said Theresa May was misguided to focus on human rights law rather than policing cuts.

“There is no incompatibility between protecting human rights and taking effective action against terrorists,” he told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme.

“If we start throwing away our adherence to human rights in response to what has happened in the last three months, we are throwing away the values at the heart of the democracy, everything that we say we believe in.”

Starmer said he had never found human rights law a barrier to successful prosecutions of terrorists or those preparing acts of terrorism. “I know because I did it for five years,” he said. “We did not run into the Human Rights Act as a problem preventing successful prosecutions. We put a lot of people away for a very long time.”

This whole human rights thing is simply to take the heat off May about the cuts to security services. Nothing more. Removing human rights would not have lead to the Jihadi guy off the c4 program being jailed or deported. I do however think that MI5 were wrong in their assessment of how dangerous this guy was and as such stopped focusing on him.

In short, I disagree that someone should ever be locked up or deported simply because we think they are planning something. But if there is enough evidence they actually are then of course we should be able to lock them up (preferably in solitary, so they can not radicalize other people in prison) but we can do this already, and do do this already. Intelligence agencies get it wrong sometimes though.

[bots]

My understanding is that it would involve opting out of some human rights laws that we currently subscribe to from europe, it doesn't affect British laws, they have to go through and be approved by parliament as they have always done.

We have kicked back in the past at laws around prisoners voting rights for example.

It's really quite alarmist to say that our liberty is in jeopardy. We have many checks and balances in the system.

[smudgie]

Those poor people.
Makes you think how lucky we are.
We can debate politics and the world from all different angles and not worry about the same fate.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by smudgie

Those poor people.
Makes you think how lucky we are.
We can debate politics and the world from all different angles and not worry about the same fate.

absolutely

[Vicky.]

Just heard on the news theres apparently been a 5x rise in Islamophobic hate crime after the recent attacks.

No surprise, but upsetting.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

My understanding is that it would involve opting out of some human rights laws that we currently subscribe to from europe, it doesn't affect British laws, they have to go through and be approved by parliament as they have always done.

We have kicked back in the past at laws around prisoners voting rights for example.

It's really quite alarmist to say that our liberty is in jeopardy. We have many checks and balances in the system.

I think it depends on quite what she is planning on doing. And given she won't say anything besides that she is planning on scrapping human rights laws to make it easier to deport terrorists and such...I think its quite right that many are very concerned about what would happen to 'normal' people caught up in it all.

I mean, it sounds like people are wanting the power to deport/lock up anyone who is simply suspected of stuff. No actual proof needed or anything. Thats an extremely dangerous way of thinking. I get that people are scared, but that really is not the answer. There should always need to be proof rather that 'we just think they may be planning' (or...on the more extreme end which sadly many seem to come under 'he has brown skin, deport him, regardless of if he is born in Britain')...and at the moment, if there is proof they are locked up...so quite what is meant to to change besides 'normal people' losing their rights to innocent until proven guilty too?

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Every single person who died on Saturday would have been alive? There were 2 other people carrying out the attack?

I get what you are saying but I think its a very dangerous route to be going down where, for example someone can be locked up on suspicion of doing something, when they may not have even been doing that if that makes sense? This will affect us all...not just the bad people.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-of-terrorists



This whole human rights thing is simply to take the heat off May about the cuts to security services. Nothing more. Removing human rights would not have lead to the Jihadi guy off the c4 program being jailed or deported. I do however think that MI5 were wrong in their assessment of how dangerous this guy was and as such stopped focusing on him.

In short, I disagree that someone should ever be locked up or deported simply because we think they are planning something. But if there is enough evidence they actually are then of course we should be able to lock them up (preferably in solitary, so they can not radicalize other people in prison) but we can do this already, and do do this already.

Intelligence agencies get it wrong sometimes though.

Course they would be alive. Maybe a different set of people would be dead, but everyone on saturday would still be alive.


Arrest everyone connected to him and waterboard them.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Course they would be alive. Maybe a different set of people would be dead, but everyone on saturday would still be alive.


Arrest everyone connected to him and waterboard them.

His paperboy, neighbours, granny, sister in law, cousin etc?

That BIB right there is why Human Rights need protecting

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Course they would be alive. Maybe a different set of people would be dead, but everyone on saturday would still be alive.

I actually don't understand this. How can you say everybody on Saturday would still be alive, when the c4 guy was only one of 3 attackers. There were still 2 other people. We do not know which terrorist stabbed which person. The c4 guy might not have killed anyone at all!? We just do not know.

I may be missing something here though.

Arrest everyone connected to him and waterboard them.

You cannot be serious? Its hard to tell these days given these kind of extreme views seem to be getting more and more common. Just incase..

Everyone connected to him should be tortured. For what exactly? What do you mean by 'connected'. Family, friends, colleagues, people who have known him in the past...what? This kind of thinking scares me so much.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

His paperboy, neighbours, granny, sister in law, cousin etc?

That BIB right there is why Human Rights need protecting

Indeed.

Wow, imagine being tortured because someone you used to know a few years ago committed a crime. Or because a family member did.



Sadly, I really do think some people would be happy with this. Until it happened to them of course...but no...it would never happen to them, could never happen to them. Until it actually does...

Guilty until proven innocent, with a bit of legal torture thrown in for good measure :S

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Indeed.

Wow, imagine being tortured because someone you used to know a few years ago committed a crime. Or because a family member did.



Sadly, I really do think some people would be happy with this. Until it happened to them of course...but no...it would never happen to them, could never happen to them. Until it actually does...

Guilty until proven innocent, with a bit of legal torture thrown in for good measure :S

I am hoping parmnion was just pulling our legs, otherwise I seriously despair

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I am hoping parmnion was just pulling our legs, otherwise I seriously despair

He may well have been, but there are people out there (and probably some on this site) who would be happy with this happening. As long as its happening to others of course.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Course they would be alive. Maybe a different set of people would be dead, but everyone on saturday would still be alive.


Arrest everyone connected to him and waterboard them.

That's why we can't give one government the ability to change our human rights. There are people in government who think like you do and that's really scary.

[Brother Leon]

Imagine using 160 deaths to try and push some political agenda.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

My understanding is that it would involve opting out of some human rights laws that we currently subscribe to from europe, it doesn't affect British laws, they have to go through and be approved by parliament as they have always done.

We have kicked back in the past at laws around prisoners voting rights for example.

It's really quite alarmist to say that our liberty is in jeopardy. We have many checks and balances in the system.

The voice of reason. They are being alarmist yet they try and turn it around on anyone who doesn't agree with the.