[DemolitionRed]

Youtube video

I always enjoy Chris Hedges books and seminars and found this one pertinent to a topic we so often skirt around the edges... especially on here.

Most of us have little to no historical context as to why we, in the West are suffering terrorist attacks. People on here often suggest its because ISIS want to invade and take over and dominate our fruitful lands. Muslim women are now demonized for wearing the burqa. Muslim men are now scorned for being too tough on their women and Muslim refugees are seen as a frightening invasion.

When you read the red tops, in fact if you read most newspapers in the UK, this sort of Western radicalization against Muslims isn't surprising but how many of us actually understand this mess was/is all a tool of U.S policy. That America was directly responsible for creating this monster and every other Warlord waiting to step into the shoes of ISIS?

Its very simplistic to demonize one cause and forget about the other. ISIS is a terrorist organization but so too is the U.S

[Kizzy]

I think the point is that the US legitimised Wahhabism when it suited their purpose to do so. That said I feel that his view that the only weapons they have are themselves an an EU passport after previously mentioning they are being funded to the tune of millions :/

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Youtube video

I always enjoy Chris Hedges books and seminars and found this one pertinent to a topic we so often skirt around the edges... especially on here.

Most of us have little to no historical context as to why we, in the West are suffering terrorist attacks. People on here often suggest its because ISIS want to invade and take over and dominate our fruitful lands. Muslim women are now demonized for wearing the burqa. Muslim men are now scorned for being too tough on their women and Muslim refugees are seen as a frightening invasion.

When you read the red tops, in fact if you read most newspapers in the UK, this sort of Western radicalization against Muslims isn't surprising but how many of us actually understand this mess was/is all a tool of U.S policy. That America was directly responsible for creating this monster and every other Warlord waiting to step into the shoes of ISIS?

Its very simplistic to demonize one cause and forget about the other. ISIS is a terrorist organization but so too is the U.S

I will address a couple of your points at this time as I feel they make the least sense and appear to perpetuate female inequality.

If as you say 'Muslim women are demonised for wearing the burkha' - why shouldn't they be. If they actually choose to wear such clothing knowing how female equality is valued in the West and written into its laws to ensure that such equality is recognised and respected, something Western women have fought long and hard for, then they are showing a lack of respect for Western values and Western women and as good as sticking two fingers up at them.

So why should their feelings be given priority over that of Western women? Why should we be concerned for their feelings when they clearly aren't for ours? You may not be offended by that but many are. It isn't exactly the way to assimilate into a Western country is it!

I also believe most Western women and men in 2017 would not, and should not, support 'Muslim men being too tough on their women' (whatever that means). Women are not children, they are adults with minds of their own that should not be controlled, scolded or treated as second-class citizens, so again why would they, or any man, not be scorned for that?

Bearing these issues in mind it comes as no surprise to me if Muslim refugees are seen as 'a frightening invasion' when so many clearly disrespect the values of the countries they choose to live in.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I think the point is that the US legitimised Wahhabism when it suited their purpose to do so. That said I feel that his view that the only weapons they have are themselves an an EU passport after previously mentioning they are being funded to the tune of millions :/

The elites are being funded to the tune of millions. The terrorists arriving on our shores or the loan wolves that already live here may or may not be being funded... I don't know.

[Kizzy]

How did my post get before brillos ... witchcraft?

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I will address a couple of your points at this time as I feel they make the least sense and appear to perpetuate female inequality.

If as you say 'Muslim women are demonised for wearing the burkha' - why shouldn't they be. If they actually choose to wear such clothing knowing how female equality is valued in the West and written into its laws to ensure that such equality is recognised and respected, something Western women have fought long and hard for, then they are showing a lack of respect for Western values and Western women and as good as sticking two fingers up at them.

So why should their feelings be given priority over that of Western women? Why should we be concerned for their feelings when they clearly aren't for ours? You may not be offended by that but many are. It isn't exactly the way to assimilate into a Western country is it!

I also believe most Western women and men in 2017 would not, and should not, support 'Muslim men being too tough on their women' (whatever that means). Women are not children, they are adults with minds of their own that should not be controlled, scolded or treated as second-class citizens, so again why would they, or any man, not be scorned for that?

Bearing these issues in mind it comes as no surprise to me if Muslim refugees are seen as 'a frightening invasion' when so many clearly disrespect the values of the countries they choose to live in.

All of this is a mute point to the topic. I'm not asking you why you fear Muslims or why we should all fear Muslims. I'm suggesting our prejudices are born from ignorance. I'm asking, did the fear and prejudice come before terrorism or after terrorism (a bit like the chicken and the egg) and if it came after, which I know it did, do we understand the history behind it? do we even care about this history behind it?

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

How did my post get before brillos ... witchcraft?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

All of this is a mute point to the topic. I'm not asking you why you fear Muslims or why we should all fear Muslims. I'm suggesting our prejudices are born from ignorance. I'm asking, did the fear and prejudice come before terrorism or after terrorism (a bit like the chicken and the egg) and if it came after, which I know it did, do we understand the history behind it? do we even care about this history behind it?

Which is basically what I'm saying in my post too, it wasn't specifically a reply to brillo but I read her comment in relation to dress before replying, which magically moved :/

It's not impossible that a deal was made to exchange oil for power, but you know what they say power corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Which is basically what I'm saying in my post too, it wasn't specifically a reply to brillo but I read her comment in relation to dress before replying, which magically moved :/

It's not impossible that a deal was made to exchange oil for power, but you know what they say power corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I get you!

[Northern Monkey]

Interesting vid thanks

This is pretty much Putins line of thinking too.He's been saying this forever.

The US/Britain funds these hardline sects to use for political/economic ends.A slice of the Middle Eastern pie and then has to go in and try and sort the **** out when these groups get too big and start to bite the hand that feeds them.
I can believe this since i think it's common knowledge that the US funded the Mujahideen in Afghan to fight the Communist Soviets and the Taliban grew from that.America created a monster.I mean the devout and backwards Islamic ideology was already there but America turned them into an organised fighting force.Al Qaeda I believe already existed outside of Afghanistan but moved their HQ there and 'worked' with the Taliban.I even heard somewhere(but wasn't sure if true) that Bin Laden got CIA training.
For me though all this western meddling doesn't negate that Islam and the words in the Quran is a backwards still medieval religion which hasn't caught up with modern values.Even Westernised Muslims must be fighting an internal ideological struggle between the contradictions between their holy book and modern Western values with more moderate Muslims being looked down upon as apostates by the more devout followers.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Interesting vid thanks

This is pretty much Putins line of thinking too.He's been saying this forever.

The US/Britain funds these hardline sects to use for political/economic ends.A slice of the Middle Eastern pie and then has to go in and try and sort the **** out when these groups get too big and start to bite the hand that feeds them.
I can believe this since i think it's common knowledge that the US funded the Mujahideen in Afghan to fight the Communist Soviets and the Taliban grew from that.America created a monster.I mean the devout and backwards Islamic ideology was already there but America turned them into an organised fighting force.Al Qaeda I believe already existed outside of Afghanistan but moved their HQ there and 'worked' with the Taliban.I even heard somewhere(but wasn't sure if true) that Bin Laden got CIA training.

We have done our fair share of colonial power to protect western interests. Imagine an Arab land trying to topple and replace our PM. As ludicrous as that sounds, that’s what we did in Iran, Iraq and Syria. We provided those newly formed governments with the resources by which they could crush any form of rebellion. The making of ISIS, which now controls an area roughly the size of the UK required enormous outside force to succeed. To establish themselves they required foreign money and the use of foreign fighters to aid them in their ethnic cleansing. We were cheering them on under a different name when they were plundering resources and carving out and occupying huge areas for themselves. In our eyes, they only became terrorists when they became big enough and strong enough to turn against us, but prior to that, they took lessons from the West in how to rule and conquer and that’s why they have been so successful.

For me though all this western meddling doesn't negate that Islam and the words in the Quran is a backwards still medieval religion which hasn't caught up with modern values.Even Westernised Muslims must be fighting an internal ideological struggle between the contradictions between their holy book and modern Western values with more moderate Muslims being looked down upon as apostates by the more devout followers.

Perhaps so but before we invaded Iraq, it was a very modern country with a vibrant well educated middle class. There’s no doubt that Hussain did run a repressive regime but economically he shared the oil wealth with his country that was re-distributed in forms of free health (they had top end Swedish built hospitals) free schooling and further education, good public transport, and state of the art shopping centers. Even outsiders who lived and worked in Iraq benefited from all this stuff. The West destroyed Iraq as a unified country and the result of that is, it has spawned extreme jihadism, terrifying war lords and millions of refugees. The West, along with the Iraqi ground troupes, who are now known as ISIS, wiped out everything the Iraqis previously took for granted.

We have to accept that we do not own Islam regardless of how backward we think it is… It was never ours to take and the taking of it has not only destroyed many millions of lives in their own countries but lives in our countries too and sadly, I think that’s going to continue for a very long time. That by the way, does not make me support revenge, just understand why its happening. Its not happening because they want to be like us, its because they don’t want to be like us.

[jaxie]

I'd like to mention the opposing views that Muslim women are demonised for wearing the burqa and that they are disrespectful to wear it.

I think that you are both completely wrong. Women don't choose to wear religious garb through some form of ancient modesty and they certainly don't do it to piss anyone off or be offensive. Women are taught to believe they must wear these garments to be modest by men. It is religious uniform, religious conditioning and a form of control exercised by men raised with very mysogionistic beliefs. They are further isolated by the restrictive nature of the cover which must make it very difficult to make friends outside their own community.

Education is desperately needed on this not appeasement or ridicule.

The post above is right when it says we don't own Islam but we do own the right of equality for all women where we live and those women who are raised in mysogionistic beliefs should have those rights and an education to match them also.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I'd like to mention the opposing views that Muslim women are demonised for wearing the burqa and that they are disrespectful to wear it.

I think that you are both completely wrong. Women don't choose to wear religious garb through some form of ancient modesty and they certainly don't do it to piss anyone off or be offensive. Women are taught to believe they must wear these garments to be modest by men. It is religious uniform, religious conditioning and a form of control exercised by men raised with very mysogionistic beliefs.

I don't want to make this thread about a Muslim woman's attire, we already have numerous threads about that and it doesn't need this thread to add to that.

Education is desperately needed on this not appeasement or ridicule.

The post above is right when it says we don't own Islam but we do own the right of equality for all women where we live and those women who are raised in mysogionistic beliefs should have those rights and an education to match them also.

My point, in my opening post, was about the excuses we now use to demonize Muslims and how this demonization is recent. Since the beheadings, we all heard about in Syria and the murder of people on our own shores we spend an awful lot of time typing on our PC's about the segregation of Muslim women. So, my point was, lets forget about that (at least in this thread) and lets get down to the nitty gritty of what happened, why it happened and is still happening and I don't mean women wearing hijab!

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I don't want to make this thread about a Muslim woman's attire, we already have numerous threads about that and it doesn't need this thread to add to that.



My point, in my opening post, was about the excuses we now use to demonize Muslims and how this demonization is recent. Since the beheadings, we all heard about in Syria and the murder of people on our own shores we spend an awful lot of time typing on our PC's about the segregation of Muslim women. So, my point was, lets forget about that (at least in this thread) and lets get down to the nitty gritty of what happened, why it happened and is still happening and I don't mean women wearing hijab!

It wasn't me who brought attire into his thread it was you and Brillo so if you don't want to make the thread about it, perhaps you should refrain.

I wouldn't say people demonize Muslims generally, I think the religion and aspects of what is being taught are certainly a topic of conversation and coming more under scrutiny than before, in view of the increasing attacks and beheadings in the name of the religion. How can we possibly forget about the segregation of and mysogyny towards women?

You make it sound like a choice between tomato or hp sauce.

[user104658]

To be fair I have to wonder; do those who are so vehemently opposed to things like hijab / burka feel the same about their western equivalents? Does this make you recoil in the same way;



Does it bother you in the same way that MANY branches of Christianity insist on "female modesty" such as long sleeves / skirts / no low necklines or showing stomach, etc? Mormons, for example? Or countless other more strict branches of Protestantism?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

To be fair I have to wonder; do those who are so vehemently opposed to things like hijab / burka feel the same about their western equivalents? Does this make you recoil in the same way;



Does it bother you in the same way that MANY branches of Christianity insist on "female modesty" such as long sleeves / skirts / no low necklines or showing stomach, etc? Mormons, for example? Or countless other more strict branches of Protestantism?

Personally I have no time for either religious or other forms of controlling women by male dominated societies insisting women cover themselves. Why would you think it would make any difference? Grasping at straws! Other groups that do cover themselves such as nuns choose to become nuns they aren't born into it, brainwashed and often threatened. All free-choice.

Neither do they cover their faces and identity - the biggest insult of all in my opinion. Neither are they used to commit terrorist acts such as the recent attacks by three women in London. Hugh differences in my opinion.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I'd like to mention the opposing views that Muslim women are demonised for wearing the burqa and that they are disrespectful to wear it.

I think that you are both completely wrong. Women don't choose to wear religious garb through some form of ancient modesty and they certainly don't do it to piss anyone off or be offensive. Women are taught to believe they must wear these garments to be modest by men. It is religious uniform, religious conditioning and a form of control exercised by men raised with very mysogionistic beliefs. They are further isolated by the restrictive nature of the cover which must make it very difficult to make friends outside their own community.

Education is desperately needed on this not appeasement or ridicule.

The post above is right when it says we don't own Islam but we do own the right of equality for all women where we live and those women who are raised in mysogionistic beliefs should have those rights and an education to match them also.

When I say choose Jaxie I mean choose as we are constantly being told these women do. I am well aware that many, maybe most, don't choose to even if they think they do due to brainwashing from birth - pretty powerful stuff, but I have been referring throughout to those that do actually make free-choice of which there are undoubtedly some.

Those women I have no time for because they attempt to undermine the equality of women in general in my opinion. For those that are being forced to wear it the stopping of this misogynistic practice would not only be liberating for those women but the moral and progressive thing to do for a Western society.

[arista]

"I'm suggesting our prejudices are born from ignorance"

Yes true for a Great Deal.
But not me.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

When I say choose Jaxie I mean choose as we are constantly being told these women do. I am well aware that many, maybe most, don't choose to even if they think they do due to brainwashing from birth - pretty powerful stuff, but I have been referring throughout to those that do actually make free-choice of which there are undoubtedly some.

Those women I have no time for because they attempt to undermine the equality of women in general in my opinion. For those that are being forced to wear it the stopping of this misogynistic practice would not only be liberating for those women but the moral and progressive thing to do for a Western society.

I am vehemently opposed to racism, sexism, ageism, anti-intellectualism, homophobia, Islamophobia and so on. These things exist and often they warrant protest, or at the very least discussion but what you are trying to do is to turn this thread into something that personally irks you. I really don't appreciate you manipulating this thread into something it wasn't intended to be but you clearly don't have the capacity to jump on board and discuss the topic offered.

I'll leave you to it.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I am vehemently opposed to racism, sexism, ageism, anti-intellectualism, homophobia, Islamophobia and so on. These things exist and often they warrant protest, or at the very least discussion but what you are trying to do is to turn this thread into something that personally irks you. I really don't appreciate you manipulating this thread into something it wasn't intended to be but you clearly don't have the capacity to jump on board and discuss the topic offered.

I'll leave you to it.

No need. I'll keep out - it's your thread.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

No need. I'll keep out - it's your thread.

No its not my thread but you are making it into your thread. You haven't attempted to discuss what this topic is about.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

To be fair I have to wonder; do those who are so vehemently opposed to things like hijab / burka feel the same about their western equivalents? Does this make you recoil in the same way;



Does it bother you in the same way that MANY branches of Christianity insist on "female modesty" such as long sleeves / skirts / no low necklines or showing stomach, etc? Mormons, for example? Or countless other more strict branches of Protestantism?

I wouldn't say I recoil either way. But yes a nun habit is also a religious uniform that has no real place in modern life. And as with most religion is the result of brainwashing. No religion should be dictating what is and isn't female modesty, it's horribly sexist to suggest a woman is in some way an object that drives men to lust if not modestly covered. Does anyone suggest men aren't modest enough or should cover their hair? Maybe your pants are too tight TS and will invite women to lustful attacks if you don't start to wear a long loose robe. Outrageous? Of course it is.

[lime]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

To be fair I have to wonder; do those who are so vehemently opposed to things like hijab / burka feel the same about their western equivalents? Does this make you recoil in the same way;



Does it bother you in the same way that MANY branches of Christianity insist on "female modesty" such as long sleeves / skirts / no low necklines or showing stomach, etc? Mormons, for example? Or countless other more strict branches of Protestantism?

When are folk going to critise Hindu's with their beleifs about women ..I hear Islam condemed for their proceived views about women...Honour killlings/FGM/arrangened marrage's all happen with Christian/Hindu /Sheik,,,


Ah feck ...forget to mention how violent are the so callled peace loving Budist's against Muslim's