[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Can anyone who thinks it's fine, without googling, give me a brief rundown of the Anglo-Zulu war and British colonialism in southern Africa? Like do you know anything about it, at all? Can you, in reference to those very relevant events, explain to me why you believe that groups of White European British people dressing up as Zulu warriors to prance around in costumes might not be seen as racially insensitive by some people?

Or is this just the usual "I know nothing about it but no of course it's not racist, NOTHING is racist " stuff.

Oh wait I forgot; a couple of "real life" Zulu descendants who are involved in the show think it's OK so it must be OK.

Putting a slightly different slant on it, but the principle is the same in my opinion, should women then not be offended when men dress up as women for entertainment purposes ie drag queens.

Don’t you think that men dressing up as women to prance around in costumes might not be seen as sexist and insensitive by some people! Or don’t the feelings of women count as they seem to be the most mis-treated group of people worldwide despite making up 50% of the population. What does that say about how women and their feelings count in the eyes of many.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

well by that logic people who "claim" to be offended have no clue why either?

so you have answered your own question and ended the thread

Bingo

You're going to have to explain "that logic" LT (using actual logic, plz, not supposition) because it doesn't logically follow at all. Like literally.

A = know the history
B = do not know the history
C = think it's racially offensive
D = think it's fine

My statement is a simple pair;
if A then C
most D then B



You have taken those statements and made your own supposition that;

if D = B then C = B



tl;dr you're incorrect, it doesn't logically follow at all.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Putting a slightly different slant on it, but the principle is the same in my opinion, should women then not be offended when men dress up as women for entertainment purposes ie drag queens.

Don’t you think that men dressing up as women to prance around in costumes might not be seen as sexist and insensitive by some people! Or don’t the feelings of women count as they seem to be the most mis-treated group of people worldwide despite making up 50% of the population. What does that say about how women and their feelings count in the eyes of many.

I'm sure many are offended by it, but then, they would probably be even more offended by it if the people doing it had invaded their continent to enslave its population, cut them down in the thousands with Gatling cannons, proceded to exploit the land for every resource available, then left behind a wrecked continent rife with poverty and corruption. Just a thought.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Can anyone who thinks it's fine, without googling, give me a brief rundown of the Anglo-Zulu war and British colonialism in southern Africa? Like do you know anything about it, at all? Can you, in reference to those very relevant events, explain to me why you believe that groups of White European British people dressing up as Zulu warriors to prance around in costumes might not be seen as racially insensitive by some people?

Or is this just the usual "I know nothing about it but no of course it's not racist, NOTHING is racist " stuff.

Oh wait I forgot; a couple of "real life" Zulu descendants who are involved in the show think it's OK so it must be OK.

This isn't about Zulu's because you're not their spokesman. This is about your feelings, and I couldn't give a shining sh1te about your feelings, so get of your high-horse and stop trying to dictate what people should and shouldn't do.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm sure many are offended by it, but then, they would probably be even more offended by it if the people doing it had invaded their continent to enslave its population, cut them down in the thousands with Gatling cannons, proceded to exploit the land for every resource available, then left behind a wrecked continent rife with poverty and corruption. Just a thought.

You don’t think women have and are still being enslaved by many men. I would imagine many women in certain parts of the world, probably here in Britain, still feel and are enslaved with no say in their own lives.

[Oliver_W]

So we're apparently using the Sociology class definition of racism, i.e. "it's power+privilege REEEE" rather than the actual, working definition. Okay.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Alf

This isn't about Zulu's because you're not their spokesman. This is about your feelings, and I couldn't give a shining sh1te about your feelings, so get of your high-horse and stop trying to dictate what people should and shouldn't do.

It's about "my feelings"? I'm not personally offended by it at all Alf, hate to break it to you, I'm sure it'd give you that down-low tickle if I was. The thread title was a question, I'm answering the question. And as there don't appear to be any Zulus on the forum... it would be a pretty quiet thread if non-Zulus weren't supposed to answer .

Unless the only acceptable answer is "Oh derp I denno cos I'm not a Zulu!"

Though that would explain quite a lot about many people's inability to grasp the concept of racism . "Werl I'm not one of them so I denno what is a racism".

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

So we're apparently using the Sociology class definition of racism, i.e. "it's power+privilege REEEE" rather than the actual, working definition. Okay.

I'll save you some trouble here;

"Racism" is probably too broad a stroke for what we're talking about in this thread.

No it is not actively racist. However it is racially insensitive. If the latter term helps you to form a clearer opinion here, you should go with that.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

well by that logic people who "claim" to be offended have no clue why either?

so you have answered your own question and ended the thread

Bingo

[Alf]

Freedom? these Marxists hate it.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's about "my feelings"? I'm not personally offended by it at all Alf, hate to break it to you, I'm sure it'd give you that down-low tickle if I was. The thread title was a question, I'm answering the question. And as there don't appear to be any Zulus on the forum... it would be a pretty quiet thread if non-Zulus weren't supposed to answer .

Unless the only acceptable answer is "Oh derp I denno cos I'm not a Zulu!"

Though that would explain quite a lot about many people's inability to grasp the concept of racism . "Werl I'm not one of them so I denno what is a racism".

For an articulate poster I am always disappointed when you regularly resort to attempting to undermine other posters by attempting to suggest that anyone you perceive may have ‘racist’ views must be ‘semi-illiterate and uneducated’ with the use of language such as ‘derp’ and ’denno’’. Patronising or manipulative or both - hmm!

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

For an articulate poster I am always disappointed when you regularly resort to attempting to undermine other posters by attempting to suggest that anyone you perceive may have ‘racist’ views must be ‘semi-illiterate and uneducated’ with the use of language such as ‘derp’ and ’denno’’. Patronising or manipulative or both - hmm!

See, that's where you're wrong Brillo. I don't think people are semi-illiterate, uneducated or stupid, and that's really my main problem with it. I think people willfully PRETEND that they don't "get why it might be racially insensitive" because they don't want to change their behavior, or feel that by being asked to be considerate they are somehow being controlled or having their freedoms removed. I highly suspect that certain people arguing against the idea that it might be racist understand the argument perfectly well, but will swear blue in the face that they don't, because it doesn't suit them to be understanding of it. Hence; "Derp!". It's not me saying that people ARE stupid, it's me saying "Stop ****ing pretending to be", even if you do disagree with it, argue against it and justify it PROPERLY instead of pretending "not to get it at all".

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

See, that's where you're wrong Brillo. I don't think people are semi-illiterate, uneducated or stupid, and that's really my main problem with it. I think people willfully PRETEND that they don't "get why it might be racially insensitive" because they don't want to change their behavior, or feel that by being asked to be considerate they are somehow being controlled or having their freedoms removed. I highly suspect that certain people arguing against the idea that it might be racist understand the argument perfectly well, but will swear blue in the face that they don't, because it doesn't suit them to be understanding of it. Hence; "Derp!". It's not me saying that people ARE stupid, it's me saying "Stop ****ing pretending to be", even if you do disagree with it, argue against it and justify it PROPERLY instead of pretending "not to get it at all".

It's a fancy dress costume, there is no need to make it political. It's just someone having a fun night out at a fancy dress party, they are not trying to oppress anyone.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

See, that's where you're wrong Brillo. I don't think people are semi-illiterate, uneducated or stupid, and that's really my main problem with it. I think people willfully PRETEND that they don't "get why it might be racially insensitive" because they don't want to change their behavior, or feel that by being asked to be considerate they are somehow being controlled or having their freedoms removed. I highly suspect that certain people arguing against the idea that it might be racist understand the argument perfectly well, but will swear blue in the face that they don't, because it doesn't suit them to be understanding of it. Hence; "Derp!". It's not me saying that people ARE stupid, it's me saying "Stop ****ing pretending to be", even if you do disagree with it, argue against it and justify it PROPERLY instead of pretending "not to get it at all".

But however well or how strongly you put it it is still only opinion but you suggest it is based on knowledge asking people to reply without googling. How the hell do we know you didn’t google anything?

I would imagine most are aware of the slavery of blacks in the past, often by their own, not just whites. But I would also imagine they would be aware of the slavery of women in the past and present. And ironically the countries where female slavery, violence, rape and murder are most prevalent are most likely to occur within non-white communities. Unpalletable perhaps, but true.

I see you defend what you see as ‘racism’ at every turn but tbh I don’t remember seeing you defend ‘sexism’ - certainly not with the same vigor. Life for many in this world is pretty damn unbearable based on the fact they are female. But how often is that condemned on here!

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

[/B]



If something isn't done in a malicious way then how can it be racist, my boys take off my Irish accent all the time, should they be banned ...

waits for someone to come along and call Josy's relatives racist

What does your son's mimicking an Irish accent have to do with race or racism though? That's not a like for like comparison and certainly not the same as blackface.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Alf

This isn't about Zulu's because you're not their spokesman. This is about your feelings, and I couldn't give a shining sh1te about your feelings, so get of your high-horse and stop trying to dictate what people should and shouldn't do.

You know it's kind of funny but the argument some are having is over the post title or what I pointed out about the article and it is obvious to me they haven't read it. The article is quite interesting and talks about three different view points.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

What does your son's mimicking an Irish accent have to do with race or racism though? That's not a like for like comparison and certainly not the same as blackface.

I could get mortally offended!

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Alf

This isn't about Zulu's because you're not their spokesman. This is about your feelings, and I couldn't give a shining sh1te about your feelings, so get of your high-horse and stop trying to dictate what people should and shouldn't do.

He's giving his opinion, as he's entitled.

Now who's dictating what people can do?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I could get mortally offended!

Good for you?

I could get mortally offended if someone doesn't like my cooking, but that isn't comparable to racism either.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

Good for you?

I could get mortally offended if someone doesn't like my cooking, but that isn't comparable to racism either.

Sexism is definitely comparable to racism but does it get the same airtime on here - not on your nelly!

I would say there is and has been more sexism in the world than racism as females make up 50% of the world population and it is often practised by men who are the first to shout racism.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Sexism is definitely comparable to racism but does it get the same airtime on here - not on your nelly!

I would say there is and has been more sexism in the world than racism as females make up 50% of the world population and it is often practised by men who are the first to shout racism.

Sexism is an issue of its own.

But, discarding one very real and very important issue by shouting "Well, there are other bad things happening in the world! " is kind of childish.

Yes, sexism is awful too but that's not the topic of this particular discussion, and let's not pretend sexism isn't a huge debate of its own across the world.

As far as "airtime" on TiBB, the very fact that such a large portion of the forum were completely outraged by a lot of "the truth's" ridiculous posts shows that thankfully we're largely a forum that doesn't tolerate sexism and the abuse that comes with it.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Sexism is definitely comparable to racism but does it get the same airtime on here - not on your nelly!

I would say there is and has been more sexism in the world than racism as females make up 50% of the world population and it is often practised by men who are the first to shout racism.

Could you explain this statement please?

I don't agree with blackface either, if you want to celebrate zulus ask a zulu to come and give a talk, this exhibition however 'cultural' they paint it is still a homage to colonialism.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Could you explain this statement please?

I don't agree with blackface either, if you want to celebrate zulus ask a zulu to come and give a talk, this exhibition however 'cultural' they paint it is still a homage to colonialism.

:er:



A row over whether revellers who “black up” for Saturday’s bonfire parade in Lewes are racist has taken a twist after the leader of a Zulu dance troupe booked to appear alongside them said the practice was not offensive.

Rival factions in the East Sussex town have mounted petitions for and against white members of one of its seven historic bonfire societies parading in versions of Zulu dress and painting their faces black.

But Thandanani Gumede, 32, a Zulu from Durban, South Africa, whose West Yorkshire-based song and dance troop Zulu Tradition will perform in Lewes, said while the issue was sensitive, the costumes and makeup were “not derogatory”.

“I would be offended by people showing up in a Ku Klux Klan uniform,” Gumede said. “So far, based on the information I have, I haven’t [seen] anything racist. I was flattered to see there were people trying to look like me as opposed to saying it is wrong to look like me

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Cherie

:er:



A row over whether revellers who “black up” for Saturday’s bonfire parade in Lewes are racist has taken a twist after the leader of a Zulu dance troupe booked to appear alongside them said the practice was not offensive.

Rival factions in the East Sussex town have mounted petitions for and against white members of one of its seven historic bonfire societies parading in versions of Zulu dress and painting their faces black.

But Thandanani Gumede, 32, a Zulu from Durban, South Africa, whose West Yorkshire-based song and dance troop Zulu Tradition will perform in Lewes, said while the issue was sensitive, the costumes and makeup were “not derogatory”.

“I would be offended by people showing up in a Ku Klux Klan uniform,” Gumede said. “So far, based on the information I have, I haven’t [seen] anything racist. I was flattered to see there were people trying to look like me as opposed to saying it is wrong to look like me

Due to the :er: I can't take anything else in your post seriously.

I don't appreciate mockery and this is exactly why the blackface 'tradition' will never sit well with me.
I read the article and am therefore aware of that opinion.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Due to the :er: I can't take anything else in your post seriously.

I don't appreciate mockery and this is exactly why the blackface 'tradition' will never sit well with me.
I read the article and am therefore aware of that opinion.

you asked for a Zulu, when they already had one