[Kizzy]

'Modern' video games are about the normalisation of violence and/ or abuse, mocking those who highlight this as a issue reiterates my point.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Christmas treeza

'Modern' video games are about the normalisation of violence and/ or abuse, mocking those who highlight this as a issue reiterates my point.

They aren't, and it's not really wise to pass judgement on things that you have no experience of, and don't engage in yourself. All you're doing here is parroting what you've read elsewhere.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

They aren't, and it's not really wise to pass judgement on things that you have no experience of, and don't engage in yourself. All you're doing here is parroting what you've read elsewhere.

You're passing judgement on this '77yr old woman' ... Why are you presuming she has no experience, you're coming across as both ageist and sexist, why shouldn't she or myself have a say on this topic?

What a strange controlling thing to state, you are effectively standing atop your soapbox and denying her an opinion.

There are several things I don't have direct experience of, mass murder, fondue, being a boxing champion... it doesn't stop me having an opinion on them.
To be fair to Esther she has worked with childline for decades I don't know how you can say isn't qualified to comment on this distasteful virtual voyerism dressed up as 'entertainment' ... It's very odd.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Christmas treeza

You're passing judgement on this '77yr old woman' ... Why are you presuming she has no experience, you're coming across as both ageist and sexist, why shouldn't she or myself have a say on this topic?

What a strange controlling thing to state, you are effectively standing atop your soapbox and denying her an opinion.

There are several things I don't have direct experience of, mass murder, fondue, being a boxing champion... it doesn't stop me having an opinion on them.
To be fair to Esther she has worked with childline for decades I don't know how you can say isn't qualified to comment on this distasteful virtual voyerism dressed up as 'entertainment' ... It's very odd.

Agree on this.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Christmas treeza

You're passing judgement on this '77yr old woman' ... Why are you presuming she has no experience, you're coming across as both ageist and sexist, why shouldn't she or myself have a say on this topic?

What a strange controlling thing to state, you are effectively standing atop your soapbox and denying her an opinion.

There are several things I don't have direct experience of, mass murder, fondue, being a boxing champion... it doesn't stop me having an opinion on them.
To be fair to Esther she has worked with childline for decades I don't know how you can say isn't qualified to comment on this distasteful virtual voyerism dressed up as 'entertainment' ... It's very odd.

I very much doubt that she, or you, have ever extensively played a modern narrative-driven video game and so no... she isn't qualified to comment on what it is or what effect it has. Of course she's entitled to her opinion on it - as are you - but the fact is, because she demonstrably has absolutely zero idea what she's talking about, having never taken part in this form of media in ANY way let alone this specific example, her archaic opinion on it is worth precisely sh*t. Which is fitting - as she appears to have pulled it out of her arse.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

I very much doubt that she, or you, have ever extensively played a modern narrative-driven video game and so no... she isn't qualified to comment on what it is or what effect it has. Of course she's entitled to her opinion on it - as are you - but the fact is, because she demonstrably has absolutely zero idea what she's talking about, having never taken part in this form of media in ANY way let alone this specific example, her archaic opinion on it is worth precisely sh*t. Which is fitting - as she appears to have pulled it out of her arse.

So you can only comment on things you have extensive experience of?

I will be looking forward to you deleting 100s of comments specifically applicable to women then..
What an unjustified, aggressive and unpleasant response.

She is entitled to an opinion on this topic, as am I ... I am shocked at the voracity of your reaction and more than a little concerned if I'm honest.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Christmas treeza

So you can only comment on things you have extensive experience of?

I will be looking forward to you deleting 100s of comments specifically applicable to women then..
What an unjustified, aggressive and unpleasant response.

She is entitled to an opinion on this topic, as am I ... I am shocked at the voracity of your reaction and more than a little concerned if I'm honest.

I didn't say she needs to have extensive experience of it. I said she doesn't have ANY experience of it.

I also said she's entitled to her opinion. I'm only pointing out that her opinion is ignorant, archaic, uninformed, reactionary nonsense. In my opinion, of course.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

I didn't say she needs to have extensive experience of it. I said she doesn't have ANY experience of it.

I also said she's entitled to her opinion. I'm only pointing out that her opinion is ignorant, archaic, uninformed, reactionary nonsense. In my opinion, of course.

You're presuming she doesn't from a place of prejudice and ignorance, as your presumptions are based on the fact she's old... and that's it :/

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Christmas treeza

You're passing judgement on this '77yr old woman' ... Why are you presuming she has no experience, you're coming across as both ageist and sexist, why shouldn't she or myself have a say on this topic?

What a strange controlling thing to state, you are effectively standing atop your soapbox and denying her an opinion.

There are several things I don't have direct experience of, mass murder, fondue, being a boxing champion... it doesn't stop me having an opinion on them.
To be fair to Esther she has worked with childline for decades I don't know how you can say isn't qualified to comment on this distasteful virtual voyerism dressed up as 'entertainment' ... It's very odd.

It's not just commenting on what's in the games though, it's commenting on the effect the games have on people playing them, isn't it? If you haven't played them how can you know what effect they have?
And if the issue isn't that it might have an effect on people and just that it's distasteful, then could the same not be said about a lot of films and TV shows and that they also shouldn't show topics like child abuse or any kind of violence at all in the name of entertainment?
Does entertainment have to be PG? Can it not provoke thought about issues and contain adult themes? And why is it one rule for one form of entertainment and another for something else?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

It's not just commenting on what's in the games though, it's commenting on the effect the games have on people playing them, isn't it? If you haven't played them how can you know what effect they have?
And if the issue isn't that it might have an effect on people and just that it's distasteful, then could the same not be said about a lot of films and TV shows and that they also shouldn't show topics like child abuse or any kind of violence at all in the name of entertainment?
Does entertainment have to be PG? Can it not provoke thought about issues and contain adult themes? And why is it one rule for one form of entertainment and another for something else?

The rule of thumb is "if it didn't exist when I was a young'un, it is strange and corrupting our youth!"

See... 70 years ago, the older generations DID believe this sort of rabid, reactionary nonsense about cinema. 50 years ago, they believed it about television. Today, it's video games and / or sometimes "The Internet" that is the "terrible demon amongst us". I wasn't being flippant when I said this older generation will die off soon enough and people will forget that gaming was ever demonized as being any different to television or movies... that is exactly what will happen.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

The rule of thumb is "if it didn't exist when I was a young'un, it is strange and corrupting our youth!"

See... 70 years ago, the older generations DID believe this sort of rabid, reactionary nonsense about cinema. 50 years ago, they believed it about television. Today, it's video games and / or sometimes "The Internet" that is the "terrible demon amongst us". I wasn't being flippant when I said this older generation will die off soon enough and people will forget that gaming was ever demonized as being any different to television or movies... that is exactly what will happen.

Yeah I think there's a lot of truth in that. Even saying that though video game violence isn't even that much of a new thing anyway (maybe new in the sense that much older people might not be too aware of it, but not so new that we can't tell whether or not there is an impact). I was playing games as a kid on the N64 where I'd shoot and stab people and I'm not a violent person in the slightest. And however more realistic games are these days to say 20 years ago, they're still not as realistic as TV and film.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

It's not just commenting on what's in the games though, it's commenting on the effect the games have on people playing them, isn't it? If you haven't played them how can you know what effect they have?
And if the issue isn't that it might have an effect on people and just that it's distasteful, then could the same not be said about a lot of films and TV shows and that they also shouldn't show topics like child abuse or any kind of violence at all in the name of entertainment?
Does entertainment have to be PG? Can it not provoke thought about issues and contain adult themes? And why is it one rule for one form of entertainment and another for something else?.

But the abuser is being portrayed as a villain, who will inevitably lose, so I don't really see the argument there? Like nobodys gonna play that game and be like "woah, Todd seemed to have a right laugh, I wish I was more like him". After spending hours of gameplay destroying and defeating him.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

It's not just commenting on what's in the games though, it's commenting on the effect the games have on people playing them, isn't it? If you haven't played them how can you know what effect they have?
And if the issue isn't that it might have an effect on people and just that it's distasteful, then could the same not be said about a lot of films and TV shows and that they also shouldn't show topics like child abuse or any kind of violence at all in the name of entertainment?
Does entertainment have to be PG? Can it not provoke thought about issues and contain adult themes? And why is it one rule for one form of entertainment and another for something else?

It is yes, and I would feel exactly the same way about films that have this type of content.

My feeling is what mindset calls watching 'playing' something like this 'entertainment'? You have touched upon you it repulses me there, the sight sound and overall control of what happens to a virtual child is 'enjoyable' it's entertaining' you might think I'm oversensitive... think that this appeals to the undersensitive.. it's my opinion, there's no way I'll apologise for my reactions.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Christmas treeza

It is yes, and I would feel exactly the same way about films that have this type of content.

My feeling is what mindset calls watching 'playing' something like this 'entertainment'? You have touched upon you it repulses me there, the sight sound and overall control of what happens to a virtual child is 'enjoyable' it's entertaining' you might think I'm oversensitive... think that this appeals to the undersensitive.. it's my opinion, there's no way I'll apologise for my reactions.

I suppose it's just general escapism into a story. Different games have different purposes, as do different film and tv genres, but this one seems to be about a broader sense of story and how small decisions can have a big impact, and so serious scenarios were used. There's lots of different scenarios within the game (I think from what I've heard which is only a little), it's not all focused on this particular example of child abuse, and basically in each scenario you make choices to try and achieve the best outcome for the characters involved and that's what it's really about. It's not about child abuse and it doesn't seem to be glorifying child abuse. It's using it as a plot device yes, and fair enough if that's distasteful to some, but if we're talking about the mindset of the people playing it, it's not geared around wanting to see or 'play' with child abuse at all, it's merely a plot point and the actual motives in playing the game are something else entirely.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Christmas treeza

'Modern' video games are about the normalisation of violence and/ or abuse, mocking those who highlight this as a issue reiterates my point.

Can you give examples of games where abuse is normalised? I'd be very interested to here what you have to say since you seem to know a lot about video games.

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Can you give examples of games where abuse is normalised? I'd be very interested to here what you have to say since you seem to know a lot about video games.

Farcry and grand theft auto.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by santasingsadingaling

Farcry and grand theft auto.

There is no form of domestic abuse in any of the Farcry games, nor is there ever violence against children in the GTA games, and also, ANYTHING is the GTA games is quite clearly intended as parody.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that there are depictions of abuse in either of those titles.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

There is no form of domestic abuse in any of the Farcry games, nor is there ever violence against children in the GTA games, and also, ANYTHING is the GTA games is quite clearly intended as parody.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that there are depictions of abuse in either of those titles.

Parody as in comedy, so you can comically play to attack and kill people? Games are modded to be able to rape characters, like I said how far can games go before they become simply abusive voyeuristic titillation?

Her avatar was asked to strip off her clothes at gunpoint and was then shot by a male character who told her he wanted to rape her.
She couldn’t see what he was doing (the screen goes black after a character dies), but she could hear him assaulting her character.
Correa wrote: “On the surface, I feel that it looks shallow. I was told I was going to get raped by a person I’ve never met, probably somewhere I’ve never been. I will more than likely never come into contact with that person in game again. I was a pixelated person in a computer generated world.
“But DayZ scared me. Its players have the capability to hurt other players in real time. In DayZ, you can make characters suffer. You can kidnap. You can torture. You can make it a long death. You can make it an even longer awful existence.”
The GTA games have previously come under fire for their violent sex scenes that have been accused of “deliberately degrading women.” Rockstar Games, the makers behind GTA V, have not yet responded to a request for comment.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/wom...ing-women.html

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

There is no form of domestic abuse in any of the Farcry games, nor is there ever violence against children in the GTA games, and also, ANYTHING is the GTA games is quite clearly intended as parody.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that there are depictions of abuse in either of those titles.

Amimal and physical abuse are available 1 minute into each game

[user104658]

Originally Posted by santasingsadingaling

Amimal and physical abuse are available 1 minute into each game

Animal and physical abuse are available every time you step out of your front door... It doesn't mean you have to do it.

Though to be fair, I will agree that the more recent FarCry games have been a bit heavy on the animal hunting.

However, this thread is specifically about depictions of child abuse / harm to children... And neither series features that at any time.

[Beso]

Originally Posted by Toy Santa

Animal and physical abuse are available every time you step out of your front door... It doesn't mean you have to do it.

Though to be fair, I will agree that the more recent FarCry games have been a bit heavy on the animal hunting.

However, this thread is specifically about depictions of child abuse / harm to children... And neither series features that at any time.

Good, because there is no place in vg for that.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Can you give examples of games where abuse is normalised? I'd be very interested to here what you have to say since you seem to know a lot about video games.

None yet, this seems to be the ground breaker... as I said it is the trailer the USP for the game isn't it?

And as I said earlier there are many topics I don't have a lot of knowledge about insofar as direct experience of, and I'm sure you don't have experience in the issues I have experience in, that doesn't mean I would ever deny your right to have an opinion .... that would be repressive.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Christmas treeza

None yet, this seems to be the ground breaker... as I said it is the trailer the USP for the game isn't it?

And as I said earlier there are many topics I don't have a lot of knowledge about insofar as direct experience of, and I'm sure you don't have experience in the issues I have experience in, that doesn't mean I would ever deny your right to have an opinion .... that would be repressive.

If you think the USP of Detroit: Become Human is Domestic Abuse then you have clearly either not watched the trailer in question or you haven't understood it and have opted for moral outrage instead.

The USP of the trailer and the game in general is that the story can unfold in a number of ways depending on your actions and choices. If you have watched the trailer you certainly will see that it neither normalises or glamourises Domestic Abuse.

Who is denying your opinion? You made a statement saying that ''Modern' video games are about the normalisation of violence and/ or abuse' but that is simply not true at all. Your entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to point out the ignorant parts of it.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

If you think the USP of Detroit: Become Human is Domestic Abuse then you have clearly either not watched the trailer in question or you haven't understood it and have opted for moral outrage instead.

The USP of the trailer and the game in general is that the story can unfold in a number of ways depending on your actions and choices. If you have watched the trailer you certainly will see that it neither normalises or glamourises Domestic Abuse.

Who is denying your opinion? You made a statement saying that ''Modern' video games are about the normalisation of violence and/ or abuse' but that is simply not true at all. Your entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to point out the ignorant parts of it.

I have watched the trailer so why are you accusing me of ignorance?
I classed it as the USP as it is the focus of said trailer, the part of the game everyone gets to make a judgement on pre release.

I was not the first to use the term 'modern' to describe such interactive games in the thread, If you read back I didn't suggest it normalised abuse but suggested that that was a potential effect of the game.

Without any evidence it is impossible to say whether it is true or not therefore you dismissing my views as I 'misunderstood' or moral outrage is rather reactionary, denigrating my opinion is ignorant in itself, why is there no room for discussion on the possibility of desensitisation... it's not a wholly unheard of concept in gaming is it?

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Christmas treeza

I have watched the trailer so why are you accusing me of ignorance?
I classed it as the USP as it is the focus of said trailer, the part of the game everyone gets to make a judgement on pre release.

I was not the first to use the term 'modern' to describe such interactive games in the thread, If you read back I didn't suggest it normalised abuse but suggested that that was a potential effect of the game.

Without any evidence it is impossible to say whether it is true or not therefore you dismissing my views as I 'misunderstood' or moral outrage is rather reactionary, denigrating my opinion is ignorant in itself, why is there no room for discussion on the possibility of desensitisation... it's not a wholly unheard of concept in gaming is it?

You made an ignorant blanket statement on video games when you admittedly don't know much about video games so I called it out.

Again, the USP of the trailer is not the child abuse, they are not saying 'play this game, you get to witness child abuse!' They are saying that actions have consequences and your choices affect how the story plays out which is why they show the worst possible outcome first and how your actions can change what happens.

It won't have any more of an effect on 'normalising' abuse as any film or TV show has that's covered the subject. You do not play as the aggressor, the trailer shows that the father's actions are not okay and the whole point of that section is to try to help the child out of a toxic and abusive situation.

There's no evidence to say that the Loch Ness Monster doesn't exist but that doesn't mean it's a solid argument for saying that it's real. There's no real evidence, despite how hard the media want there to be, of a link between playing violent video games and the development of violent tendencies in players. There's not many people who don't already have the potential to abuse others who would play this game and think 'yeah! domestic abuse looks good to me! Let's try it!'

You may think your opinions are above criticism, Kizzy, but they are not. You made an ignorant statement and you got called out on it. You are entitled to your ignorance and I'm entitled to comment on it.