[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

He only wants one-sided rhetoric. Debate doesn’t Come into it.

You mean like you do when you open threads to demonize Muslims ?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

You mean like you do when you open threads to demonize Muslims ?

You see it as demonise because that suits you. No religion is above discussion or criticism and the day we can no longer do that is the day we really need to worry.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

You see it as demonise because that suits you. No religion is above discussion or criticism and the day we can no longer do that is the day we really need to worry.

This is where the distinction lies though Brillo;

I personally have no problem at all with you criticising the religion of Islam, or any other religion. I *do* have a problem with you assuming that all or most people with a "middle eastern appearance or middle eastern sounding name" are hardcore Muslims, or necessarily Muslims at all... and you do / have done that in the past.

Muslims can be Middle Eastern, Black, White, Central Asian, South-East Asian... there are 25 million Chinese Muslims... etc.

There are also plenty of people "of middle eastern appearance" who are of other religions or non-religious - especially those who now live in Western countries. There are almost 1 billion followers of Hinduism in India and I would bet a significant amount that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between someone from India (Hindu) and someone from Pakistan (Muslim) or the Middle East in a line-up...


So this is where your argument has always fallen flat and - you might notice - the ONLY times I have accused you of outright racism. NOT when you criticise Islam... but when you ASSUME people's culture or religion, based on how they look or where they are from, before you know anything more about them. That is racial prejudice... by simple definition... which is synonymous with racism.

[edited to add] Again though, I genuinely don't think that this is something that you do deliberately... it seems to usually be an honest conclusion that you come to. But a misguided one in my opinion. My only (I'm sure unwanted) advice would be to try to reserve judgement until there's enough information to make one without assumptions. But that's advice we could all do to take, I suppose, including myself.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This is where the distinction lies though Brillo;

I personally have no problem at all with you criticising the religion of Islam, or any other religion. I *do* have a problem with you assuming that all or most people with a "middle eastern appearance or middle eastern sounding name" are hardcore Muslims, or necessarily Muslims at all... and you do / have done that in the past.

Muslims can be Middle Eastern, Black, White, Central Asian, South-East Asian... there are 25 million Chinese Muslims... etc.

There are also plenty of people "of middle eastern appearance" who are of other religions or non-religious - especially those who now live in Western countries. There are almost 1 billion followers of Hinduism in India and I would bet a significant amount that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between someone from India (Hindu) and someone from Pakistan (Muslim) or the Middle East in a line-up...


So this is where your argument has always fallen flat and - you might notice - the ONLY times I have accused you of outright racism. NOT when you criticise Islam... but when you ASSUME people's culture or religion, based on how they look or where they are from, before you know anything more about them. That is racial prejudice... by simple definition... which is synonymous with racism.

[edited to add] Again though, I genuinely don't think that this is something that you do deliberately... it seems to usually be an honest conclusion that you come to. But a misguided one in my opinion. My only (I'm sure unwanted) advice would be to try to reserve judgement until there's enough information to make one without assumptions. But that's advice we could all do to take, I suppose, including myself.

...I was just thinking would there be a debate/news story section if we all waited to ‘judge’ as news stories that are ongoing in their conclusions is a large part of it .....people ‘judge’, that’s what humans do...some more than others, but that’s going to be inevitable as well..as is some being more vocal than others etc...anyways, the main thing I wanted to say in support of Brillo..is that some posts may be open to questioning etc...but from the very small snapshot I’ve had of the forum over the last while...she really has quite a lot thrown at her which is very uncomfortable...not questioning a specific posts but specific, deliberate personal insults...it’s hard to really question things that have been questioned in the thread topic if we can’t all even treat each other with respect ...that’s not directed to you personally btw TS..but yeah, some of the personal stuff said to Brillo at times is quite awful and grim...

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I was just thinking would there be a debate/news story section if we all waited to ‘judge’ as news stories that are ongoing in their conclusions is a large part of it .....people ‘judge’, that’s what humans do...some more than others, but that’s going to be inevitable as well..as is some being more vocal than others etc...anyways, the main thing I wanted to say in support of Brillo..is that some posts may be open to questioning etc...but from the very small snapshot I’ve had of the forum over the last while...she really has quite a lot thrown at her which is very uncomfortable...not questioning a specific posts but specific, deliberate personal insults...it’s hard to really question things that have been questioned in the thread topic if we can’t all even treat each other with respect ...that’s not directed to you personally btw TS..but yeah, some of the personal stuff said to Brillo at times is quite awful and grim...

Thank you Ammi.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I was just thinking would there be a debate/news story section if we all waited to ‘judge’ as news stories that are ongoing in their conclusions is a large part of it .....people ‘judge’, that’s what humans do...some more than others, but that’s going to be inevitable as well..as is some being more vocal than others etc...anyways, the main thing I wanted to say in support of Brillo..is that some posts may be open to questioning etc...but from the very small snapshot I’ve had of the forum over the last while...she really has quite a lot thrown at her which is very uncomfortable...not questioning a specific posts but specific, deliberate personal insults...it’s hard to really question things that have been questioned in the thread topic if we can’t all even treat each other with respect ...that’s not directed to you personally btw TS..but yeah, some of the personal stuff said to Brillo at times is quite awful and grim...

100% agree Ammi

[jet]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I was just thinking would there be a debate/news story section if we all waited to ‘judge’ as news stories that are ongoing in their conclusions is a large part of it .....people ‘judge’, that’s what humans do...some more than others, but that’s going to be inevitable as well..as is some being more vocal than others etc...anyways, the main thing I wanted to say in support of Brillo..is that some posts may be open to questioning etc...but from the very small snapshot I’ve had of the forum over the last while...she really has quite a lot thrown at her which is very uncomfortable...not questioning a specific posts but specific, deliberate personal insults...it’s hard to really question things that have been questioned in the thread topic if we can’t all even treat each other with respect ...that’s not directed to you personally btw TS..but yeah, some of the personal stuff said to Brillo at times is quite awful and grim...

Absolutely agree. Dreadful, hurtful things that she doesn't deserve at all. Some people should be ashamed of themselves.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...I was just thinking would there be a debate/news story section if we all waited to ‘judge’ as news stories that are ongoing in their conclusions is a large part of it .....people ‘judge’, that’s what humans do...some more than others, but that’s going to be inevitable as well..as is some being more vocal than others etc...anyways, the main thing I wanted to say in support of Brillo..is that some posts may be open to questioning etc...but from the very small snapshot I’ve had of the forum over the last while...she really has quite a lot thrown at her which is very uncomfortable...not questioning a specific posts but specific, deliberate personal insults...it’s hard to really question things that have been questioned in the thread topic if we can’t all even treat each other with respect ...that’s not directed to you personally btw TS..but yeah, some of the personal stuff said to Brillo at times is quite awful and grim...

I don't know if this is true Ammi or how you're defining it but maybe I've missed something; from my perspective, I don't think anyone here knows enough about Brillo as an individual for it to be true that "awful and grim" personal things have been said to her? Literally all I know is that she's English, female and old enough to have teenage children . If other people know more than that and have used personal information to attack her then that is indeed a problem.

If on the other hand, all you mean by "personal attack" is the times that she has been accused of prejudice... I personally don't see how that is outwith the scope of a normal heated adult debate. It's certainly not anything beyond other comments that are often thrown in all directions on here. To use examples from both sides for balance; I've been accused of "being a snowflake" and also "being a misogynist trying to mansplain". I've also had direct jibes made about scant real-world information that IS available about me on here - namely my sh*tty job - made by more than one person, that I would say are far more personal in nature than a post being considered to be racist?

But yes, I would genuinely like to know what it is that's so far over the line as to be considered especially awful. I believe when this has come up in the past, the general idea has been that it's awful "because loads of people are saying the same thing"... but in my opinion, several people individually sharing the same opinion has absolutely nothing to do with "ganging up" or "getting personal".

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't know if this is true Ammi or how you're defining it but maybe I've missed something; from my perspective, I don't think anyone here knows enough about Brillo as an individual for it to be true that "awful and grim" personal things have been said to her? Literally all I know is that she's English, female and old enough to have teenage children . If other people know more than that and have used personal information to attack her then that is indeed a problem.

If on the other hand, all you mean by "personal attack" is the times that she has been accused of prejudice... I personally don't see how that is outwith the scope of a normal heated adult debate. It's certainly not anything beyond other comments that are often thrown in all directions on here. To use examples from both sides for balance; I've been accused of "being a snowflake" and also "being a misogynist trying to mansplain". I've also had direct jibes made about scant real-world information that IS available about me on here - namely my sh*tty job - made by more than one person, that I would say are far more personal in nature than a post being considered to be racist?

But yes, I would genuinely like to know what it is that's so far over the line as to be considered especially awful. I believe when this has come up in the past, the general idea has been that it's awful "because loads of people are saying the same thing"... but in my opinion, several people individually sharing the same opinion has absolutely nothing to do with "ganging up" or "getting personal".

I don’t think anyone mentioned ‘loads of people’ - it has more to do with the frequency of certain types of posts from the same few.

I don’t think anyone mentioned the words ‘ganging-up’ either although you often do see the same small group of people ‘circle’ posters and their differing opinions on certain threads. People aren’t blind.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't know if this is true Ammi or how you're defining it but maybe I've missed something; from my perspective, I don't think anyone here knows enough about Brillo as an individual for it to be true that "awful and grim" personal things have been said to her? Literally all I know is that she's English, female and old enough to have teenage children . If other people know more than that and have used personal information to attack her then that is indeed a problem.

If on the other hand, all you mean by "personal attack" is the times that she has been accused of prejudice... I personally don't see how that is outwith the scope of a normal heated adult debate. It's certainly not anything beyond other comments that are often thrown in all directions on here. To use examples from both sides for balance; I've been accused of "being a snowflake" and also "being a misogynist trying to mansplain". I've also had direct jibes made about scant real-world information that IS available about me on here - namely my sh*tty job - made by more than one person, that I would say are far more personal in nature than a post being considered to be racist?

But yes, I would genuinely like to know what it is that's so far over the line as to be considered especially awful. I believe when this has come up in the past, the general idea has been that it's awful "because loads of people are saying the same thing"... but in my opinion, several people individually sharing the same opinion has absolutely nothing to do with "ganging up" or "getting personal".

..so I’m going to zip right over some of your post and completely ignore it, TS......but because I realise in reflection that discussing Brillo was unfair to her..and I apologise to her for doing that...so I’m just going to zip along from that...

...you’ve branched my thoughts out quite a bit though I have to say...you mention ‘adult discussions’...?...and then of some negative personal things which have been said to you because of personal information disclosed..(..I’m so sorry to hear that...)...the internet is a strange place in that when we do disclose about ourselves in the way of explaining etc or for other reasons or just giving out personal information etc...we’re not only disclosing to our closest friends...(..which is what we have a tendency to do in real life...)...we’re disclosing to strangers essentially and also ‘our closest enemies’...(...and most of us have those..)..also obviously to people who can become generally irritated by our opinions on any given day...anyways...

...let’s move on to ‘mansplaining’...because I have to ‘disclose’......that’s a word I haven’t heard before so you had me googling...that then led me to reading a few articles..and to cut it short a little, one article stated that ‘label’ derived from a feminist author...who at a party, had a man explain to her the meaning of her last book...so she had coined the mansplain thing ..so rather than think..oh, that’s interesting to have a male perspective which is a positive thing..she had felt it a negative and completely dismissed an ‘opinion’ by putting a label on it...You’re a man/I’m a woman/you explain and capture my attention/I explain etc and we both absorb and listen, isn’t that the way it all goes down..and ooops, along came a label called mansplaining...which is just quite bizarre...anyways, going back a bit more to the topic...I’m assuming that you didn’t feel the mansplain label type thing being something that you are and indeed an incorrect perception of you and I’m assuming that you felt quite negatively about it being attached to you...maybe being attached because of how you post, the things you post about etc...?...all of this is just assumptions for the sake of the discussion as it were...but is that not the same thing or a similar thing to attaching any ‘ist’ label...in that we don’t really know a person from their opinions and how they express those opinions in internet land in the same way we would know a person in real life and more where their opinions And beliefs derive from...I mean, yes we can only go by someone’s words that are typed, so we’re all entitled to ‘label’ with those words...but does that labelling actually progress anything in the discussion for either ‘side’...is it helpful in any way or is it hindering...like the feminist author I guess, she closed her ears from a perspective that had validity and just went in with that mansplaining thing in dismissal...hmmm, I’m not sure I’m completely on board with the thought process of ..if an ‘ism’ is accused of you, then it’s your responsibility to disprove, either...just because in that disproving or explaining as it were, that person might have to disclose something personal about themselves..maybe a childhood environment that has instilled or specific life experiences...which, then makes me think about what you have said about personal stuff and how it can be ‘used to hurt’...just the last thing to say really is that you ‘mansplain’ so well and so thoughtfully, TS.. that you often get my thoughts running off in many directions...(...the tricky bit is getting them all back together again to concentrate focus...)...

[Ammi]

...jeez, I need to learn paragraphs...

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...you’ve branched my thoughts out quite a bit though I have to say...you mention ‘adult discussions’...?...and then of some negative personal things which have been said to you because of personal information disclosed..(..I’m so sorry to hear that...)...the internet is a strange place in that when we do disclose about ourselves in the way of explaining etc or for other reasons or just giving out personal information etc...we’re not only disclosing to our closest friends...(..which is what we have a tendency to do in real life...)...we’re disclosing to strangers essentially and also ‘our closest enemies’...(...and most of us have those..)..also obviously to people who can become generally irritated by our opinions on any given day...anyways...

I suppose that's true, though for me personally the reason I don't disclose too much / prefer to stay anonymous is that my wife is now quite politically active "in the real world" and increasingly so, to the extent that I actually have to be sort of careful with any personal or political opinions that I share "openly" or at least that they're well thought through and carefully worded... which isn't always how TiBB threads go .

For the rest of it, I actually don't mind / sort of enjoy when people lose their cool and get personal . If someone has to attack arbitrary things about you, it's generally because they're struggling to find any way to attack the argument you were trying to make, which means the logic must be solid... so sort of a validation, really.

...let’s move on to ‘mansplaining’...because I have to ‘disclose’......that’s a word I haven’t heard before so you had me googling...that then led me to reading a few articles..and to cut it short a little, one article stated that ‘label’ derived from a feminist author...who at a party, had a man explain to her the meaning of her last book...so she had coined the mansplain thing ..so rather than think..oh, that’s interesting to have a male perspective which is a positive thing..she had felt it a negative and completely dismissed an ‘opinion’ by putting a label on it...You’re a man/I’m a woman/you explain and capture my attention/I explain etc and we both absorb and listen, isn’t that the way it all goes down..and ooops, along came a label called mansplaining...which is just quite bizarre...

That's my main problem with it though, that it's so dismissive. Even if someone feels like something is being "manplained" inaccurately, that can still prompt dialogue. It completely over-rides context, ignores content, no opportunity for any discussion that might lead to interesting conclusions... if someone just shouts "Oh geez thanks for mansplaining!!" and expects there to be nothing more to say, how does that help anyone? But it's not that someone thinks I'm incorrect that bothers me, it's the shutting down of any opportunity to discuss why, with sweeping reasons.

In the same way, like I said above, I think it's totally wrong for anyone to reply to something and just say "That's racism! You are racist! Nothing more to say!". Though I do think that's different from just simply using the word "racism" in the context of a full post discussing the exact reasons that you think something isn't right.

I’m assuming that you didn’t feel the mansplain label type thing being something that you are and indeed an incorrect perception of you and I’m assuming that you felt quite negatively about it being attached to you...maybe being attached because of how you post, the things you post about etc...?...all of this is just assumptions for the sake of the discussion as it were...but is that not the same thing or a similar thing to attaching any ‘ist’ label...in that we don’t really know a person from their opinions and how they express those opinions in internet land in the same way we would know a person in real life and more where their opinions And beliefs derive from...I mean, yes we can only go by someone’s words that are typed, so we’re all entitled to ‘label’ with those words...but does that labelling actually progress anything in the discussion for either ‘side’...is it helpful in any way or is it hindering...like the feminist author I guess, she closed her ears from a perspective that had validity and just went in with that mansplaining thing in dismissal...hmmm, I’m not sure I’m completely on board with the thought process of ..if an ‘ism’ is accused of you, then it’s your responsibility to disprove, either...just because in that disproving or explaining as it were, that person might have to disclose something personal about themselves..maybe a childhood environment that has instilled or specific life experiences...which, then makes me think about what you have said about personal stuff and how it can be ‘used to hurt’...

I guess just to go back to the above - and I know this may not be true for everyone - but it's very rare that if I point something out as racism it's with the intent of it being a personal attack or label, it's just that sometimes it feels like skirting around the issue without actually saying it. I'm also never trying to shut down the discussion when doing it and it's totally open to a back-and-forth and elaboration. Usually. I can admit to having off days when I'm just sick of it; though I guess the thing to do in those situations is just not to post at all. It's a work in progress

just the last thing to say really is that you ‘mansplain’ so well and so thoughtfully, TS.. that you often get my thoughts running off in many directions...(...the tricky bit is getting them all back together again to concentrate focus...)...

Awwwh, thanks . Like I said I think it's a work in progress, I have good days and bad days . The second part there about thoughts running off, I definitely get that, it's happening in my head too and I think I must be one of the worst offenders for derailing threads .