[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

I'm a lawyer, Jet. Trust me... we're sometimes willing to listen to all sides.

So am I actually, as a lawyer, you should know and stand up for your profession that evidence,substantiated evidence is needed to accuse people of serious wrongdoing.

Have you got concrete evidence that will stand up with the authorities as to Corbyn.
Are do you support accusations of serious nature branded about generally.

Of course you also make it clear you hate Corbyn too so it doesn't surprise me, since you termed the left terrorist supporting red nazis in the past, that you will forget rule of law on this.

In order to appear to support someone making unsubstantiated accusations on a public forum,against a major UK party leader,just because you appear to hate that leader too,(also in fact his party and particularly people on the left of politics since you hated Miliband too).

As a lawyer YOU should know,,that is not and should not be acceptable to make such unsubstantiated serious accusations,and God help the UK if it ever were acceptable as right too.

It is fine to state someone thinks someone has done wrong but unless they can prove same,that's all it is,a thought from them,not substantiated fact.
You make a big play on telling others they are wrong and where's their proof.
When it suits you it seems as to someone you detest,evidence and proof appear to go out the window.

You know something too,years ago, you always guided me even on simple posting on here,to make sure on here what I stated as fact could be backed up with real evidence or documented facts.
Odd how when it appears to suit your own likely hate and prejudice on an issue or against someone you hate,you choose to throw that out.

Well done.

[jet]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

serious accusations

What serious accusations have I made that are untrue?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

So am I actually, as a lawyer, you should know and stand up for your profession that evidence,substantiated evidence is needed to accuse people of serious wrongdoing.

Have you got concrete evidence that will stand up with the authorities as to Corbyn.
Are do you support accusations of serious nature branded about generally.

Of course you also make it clear you hate Corbyn too so it doesn't surprise me, since you termed the left terrorist supporting red nazis in the past, that you will forget rule of law on this.

In order to appear to support someone making unsubstantiated accusations on a public forum,against a major UK party leader,just because you appear to hate that leader too,(also in fact his party and particularly people on the left of politics since you hated Miliband too).

As a lawyer YOU should know,,that is not and should not be acceptable to make such unsubstantiated serious accusations,and God help the UK if it ever were acceptable as right too.

It is fine to state someone thinks someone has done wrong but unless they can prove same,that's all it is,a thought from them,not substantiated fact.
You make a big play on telling others they are wrong and where's their proof.
When it suits you it seems as to someone you detest,evidence and proof appear to go out the window.

You know something too,years ago, you always guided me even on simple posting on here,to make sure on here what I stated as fact could be backed up with real evidence or documented facts.
Odd how when it appears to suit your own likely hate and prejudice on an issue or against someone you hate,you choose to throw that out.

Well done.

Don't imagine that you are in a position to lecture me on my profession. Have you finished your time as a trainee yet? If you have, you only just have. You know nothing about me or my profession... And the only reason you feel free to post what you have is because we disagree politically. I used to think you'd make a great MP... offered you work experience in Westminster when you were at uni, do you remember? Then suddenly, I was your enemy. And the red Nazi thing? I have explained that to you so many times now... let it go, why don't you. Every time you have a ill-tempered swipe at me you drag it up. It's tiresome.

I don't have to produce evidence that Corbyn supported the IRA. It's a fact. And some people, myself included, will make sure anyone who didn't know, will know in future.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

I don't have to produce evidence that Corbyn supported the IRA. It's a fact. And some people, myself included, will make sure anyone who didn't know, will know in future.

This doesn't really make sense Livia... the only way to prove that something is a fact is to provide evidence? And the only way to make sure that people who don't know that it is a fact will know in future... is to convince them that it is a fact WITH that evidence?

I mean, I'm not a lawyer nor have I ever studied law beyond Judge Judy... but I'm pretty sure that, in let's say a murder trial, you couldn't go in and say "Bob Smith committed murder! Evidence? I don't need to provide evidence your honour; it is a fact! Case closed."

I mean... it's also OK to even say "I know for a fact that Corbyn supported the IRA and nothing will change my opinion, I don't care if you believe it so I'm not going to provide any evidence." ... but in the second part of your post you're saying that you want to "make sure those that don't already know it, will know it" ... and for that, there needs to be at least one of two things:

1) Irrefutable evidence, or

2) A level of personal trust that means the person you are telling will believe you without evidence.


The latter... is really only something that can (or should) exist in the realms of family or very close friends... so I don't think it's applicable to TiBB. So you can state firmly that YOU know what you know about Corbyn (or anyone else), but you can't expect those things to be accepted "as fact" without providing any evidence. It just doesn't work, surely.

I mean... I personally believe that he did "support" the IRA in some ways. I don't believe that he necessarily believes in their ideologies but I do think he's a self-promoter with an agenda and supported them for other reasons / agendae. I think he does the same with feminism / trans rights today. So I find him utterly disingenuous but I think the idea that he actively condones or encourages murder or violence is a massive stretch and it would take significant irrefutable evidence for me to believe otherwise. A YouTube video of an angry Irish presenter shouting "DO YOU SPECIFICALLY CONDEMN THE IRA???" is not evidence. Jet telling us that members of his family knew things that he can't repeat, is also not evidence. So... him having some sort of genuine support for IRA violence is not a fact; it's a rumour that may or may not be true, that some people believe and some don't. Until it is proven, with evidence, it can never be "a fact".

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

This doesn't really make sense Livia... the only way to prove that something is a fact is to provide evidence? And the only way to make sure that people who don't know that it is a fact will know in future... is to convince them that it is a fact WITH that evidence?

I mean, I'm not a lawyer nor have I ever studied law beyond Judge Judy... but I'm pretty sure that, in let's say a murder trial, you couldn't go in and say "Bob Smith committed murder! Evidence? I don't need to provide evidence your honour; it is a fact! Case closed."

I mean... it's also OK to even say "I know for a fact that Corbyn supported the IRA and nothing will change my opinion, I don't care if you believe it so I'm not going to provide any evidence." ... but in the second part of your post you're saying that you want to "make sure those that don't already know it, will know it" ... and for that, there needs to be at least one of two things:

1) Irrefutable evidence, or

2) A level of personal trust that means the person you are telling will believe you without evidence.


The latter... is really only something that can (or should) exist in the realms of family or very close friends... so I don't think it's applicable to TiBB. So you can state firmly that YOU know what you know about Corbyn (or anyone else), but you can't expect those things to be accepted "as fact" without providing any evidence. It just doesn't work, surely.

I mean... I personally believe that he did "support" the IRA in some ways. I don't believe that he necessarily believes in their ideologies but I do think he's a self-promoter with an agenda and supported them for other reasons / agendae. I think he does the same with feminism / trans rights today. So I find him utterly disingenuous but I think the idea that he actively condones or encourages murder or violence is a massive stretch and it would take significant irrefutable evidence for me to believe otherwise. A YouTube video of an angry Irish presenter shouting "DO YOU SPECIFICALLY CONDEMN THE IRA???" is not evidence. Jet telling us that members of his family knew things that he can't repeat, is also not evidence. So... him having some sort of genuine support for IRA violence is not a fact; it's a rumour that may or may not be true, that some people believe and some don't. Until it is proven, with evidence, it can never be "a fact".

No offence to you, TS... but I'm really tired of this discussion. I'd like to discuss this with you more, maybe on another day and another thread. But not this one.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Until it is proven, with evidence, it can never be "a fact".

Well can we close this with: to some people here, including me, it IS a fact - I know it to be a fact; others believe it may well be a fact; some others are unsure either way and those who are left (no pun intended) absolutely refuse to even consider it for whatever reason.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

Don't imagine that you are in a position to lecture me on my profession. Have you finished your time as a trainee yet? If you have, you only just have. You know nothing about me or my profession... And the only reason you feel free to post what you have is because we disagree politically. I used to think you'd make a great MP... offered you work experience in Westminster when you were at uni, do you remember? Then suddenly, I was your enemy. And the red Nazi thing? I have explained that to you so many times now... let it go, why don't you. Every time you have a ill-tempered swipe at me you drag it up. It's tiresome.

I don't have to produce evidence that Corbyn supported the IRA. It's a fact. And some people, myself included, will make sure anyone who didn't know, will know in future.

Are you for real,it takes 6 years to become a lawyer, it is 8 years since I started uni and was qualified in 2016.
Stop your nonsense on my qualifications and I didn't question your status,I said you ARE a lawyer.

It seems it's you who has a weak knowledge.


As to Corbyn,You have no evidence at all,no one has,as to Corbyn and you know it.
He could not get away with it ,and people like you wouldn't let him,you who claim to work in politics and for particularly the Conservatives,you would be able to present that evidence and certainly would against a political opponent,especially one you detest as much as Corbyn.

You said the red Nazi statement as to the left,I never reported it but your offensive post and it's content was removed.
If you didn't say anything wrong, a post would not be removed.
That's a fact.

Good grief,if you really had evidence against Corbyn,hating him as you do,you'd have it with the authorities.
You've got none,because there is none.
It's only likely hate for a leader of a party,a party you also dislike,with a section you look down on completely to calling them every name under the sun.

Furthermore,yes,you supported me when you thought me more to the right of politics.
Once I changed,you got at me as you do other decent people of the left.which culminated in that vile post,stating the left were Jewish hating,terrorist supporting red nazis.

It was removed Livia,taken away,for the reason of it being likely grossly offensive.
Dress it up all you like,it was your words.
You'd love it forgotten,I never have,I took you on as to it immediately at the time.
You still make similar jibes on at any opportunity.

Anyway,you hide on here and accuse publicly a legitimate leader of an established party of serious terrorist support for murders of innocent people.
However, You have no proof,there is none.
Have the courage of your own spite and get such evidence to the authorities if you have what no one else has,that is real evidence.
In law that's what has to be done before anyone can be PROVEN guilty of anything.

It seems possibly when it may suit your agenda,likely for someone you hate,the law of the land,can possibly take a back seat
Not for me it doesn't,the law is the law and it's wrong to spout accusations around with no facts,proof or evidence.
I believe that should be the case too 100%

[Livia]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Are you for real,it takes 6 years to become a lawyer, it is 8 years since I started uni and was qualified in 2016.
Stop your nonsense on my qualifications and I didn't question your status,I said you ARE a lawyer.

It seems it's you who has a weak knowledge.


As to Corbyn,You have no evidence at all,no one has,as to Corbyn and you know it.
He could not get away with it ,and people like you wouldn't let him,you who claim to work in politics and for particularly the Conservatives,you would be able to present that evidence and certainly would against a political opponent,especially one you detest as much as Corbyn.

You said the red Nazi statement as to the left,I never reported it but your offensive post and it's content was removed.
If you didn't say anything wrong, a post would not be removed.
That's a fact.

Good grief,if you really had evidence against Corbyn,hating him as you do,you'd have it with the authorities.
You've got none,because there is none.
It's only likely hate for a leader of a party,a party you also dislike,with a section you look down on completely to calling them every name under the sun.

Furthermore,yes,you supported me when you thought me more to the right of politics.
Once I changed,you got at me as you do other decent people of the left.which culminated in that vile post,stating the left were Jewish hating,terrorist supporting red nazis.

It was removed Livia,taken away,for the reason of it being likely grossly offensive.
Dress it up all you like,it was your words.
You'd love it forgotten,I never have,I took you on as to it immediately at the time.
You still make similar jibes on at any opportunity.

Anyway,you hide on here and accuse publicly a legitimate leader of an established party of serious terrorist support for murders of innocent people.
However, You have no proof,there is none.
Have the courage of your own spite and get such evidence to the authorities if you have what no one else has,that is real evidence.
In law that's what has to be done before anyone can be PROVEN guilty of anything.

It seems possibly when it may suit your agenda,likely for someone you hate,the law of the land,can possibly take a back seat
Not for me it doesn't,the law is the law and it's wrong to spout accusations around with no facts,proof or evidence.
I believe that should be the case too 100%

I'm not entertaining anymore of your rude, aggressive, half-literate waffle joey. I'm not even reading this. Try to ignore me. Please. I have no interest in engaging with you further. And please don't vote for me in any more poles.... it's kind of weird considering your usual approach to me.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

So am I actually, as a lawyer, you should know and stand up for your profession that evidence,substantiated evidence is needed to accuse people of serious wrongdoing.

Have you got concrete evidence that will stand up with the authorities as to Corbyn.
Are do you support accusations of serious nature branded about generally.

Of course you also make it clear you hate Corbyn too so it doesn't surprise me, since you termed the left terrorist supporting red nazis in the past, that you will forget rule of law on this.

In order to appear to support someone making unsubstantiated accusations on a public forum,against a major UK party leader,just because you appear to hate that leader too,(also in fact his party and particularly people on the left of politics since you hated Miliband too).

As a lawyer YOU should know,,that is not and should not be acceptable to make such unsubstantiated serious accusations,and God help the UK if it ever were acceptable as right too.

It is fine to state someone thinks someone has done wrong but unless they can prove same,that's all it is,a thought from them,not substantiated fact.
You make a big play on telling others they are wrong and where's their proof.
When it suits you it seems as to someone you detest,evidence and proof appear to go out the window.

You know something too,years ago, you always guided me even on simple posting on here,to make sure on here what I stated as fact could be backed up with real evidence or documented facts.
Odd how when it appears to suit your own likely hate and prejudice on an issue or against someone you hate,you choose to throw that out.

Well done.

Well said Joey, you are as usual the voice of reason and clarity in any given scenario and thank goodness for you otherwise we'd have no end of half truths and untruths being passed off as fact.
I know I'm forever harping back to quotes but this one is apt at this juncture
'In a time of universal deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act'
More and more I am reminded of this when it comes to the ever more apparent groupthink we are subjected to.

Never have I witnessed you ever be anything other than civil in the face of at times great provocation, if your assertive attitude in defence of your professional opinion is deliberately misconstrued then that is not your issue.
As always your posts are concise to the point and perfectly legible as well as understandable. In any poll you get my vote!