[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

The surgery isn't a cure, but the way in which it acts as a treatment is that it helps alleviate the trans persons dysphoria. It leads to them generally being more accepted as the opposite sex and helps them view themselves as that sex. But yes it shouldn't be viewed by anyone as a cure (and I think trans people are aware of this from the many consultations they have prior to surgery). I think it's more seen as a cure by non-trans people, as a lot of people will only accept someone as trans if they've had surgery.


On the 'cis' thing, I really do struggle to understand why it's seen as offensive tbh Jaxie. You say that trans women aren't the same as women, but that's actually what the word 'cis' represents. If that word (or any similar wording that means the same thing) wasn't used, there would be no differentiation between you and a transsexual woman. Yes we could say 'woman' and 'trans woman', but then a lot of people do view trans women as women so at times of the word 'woman' being used it might be confusing as to who is being referred to. So it only exists as a word to enable the conversations to take place in a coherent way which surely is needed in such complex topics as this. It's not placing any kind of label onto you, and is no different to what people mean when they say things like 'real women'.
I've tried to limit using 'cis' during conversations like this, actually since the last time the two of us discussed the word coincidentally because I'm aware from that how some people take it and I haven't wanted the conversation to be distracted with a discussion about semantics, so I've used phrasing like 'biological woman', 'non-trans woman' etc etc, and I've never been pulled up on that being offensive, it's just meant that people have known who I'm referring to, making the differentiation, and that's exactly the same as what the word 'cis' does. It really isn't meant as a label in any way.


edited to add: if we were to just use woman and transwoman, it denies anyone the opinion that transwomen are also women. Whether or not you agree that they are, surely people are entitled to that opinion? So as long as that opinion does exist there has to be a way of easily differentiating between the two, and that's all the word 'cis' is meant for. A conversational aid, nothing more.

Women and trans women are not the same, can never be the same thing. In your head you are adding on words to define the difference. All you need to define the difference is the word trans.

In fact in your dogged support of trans women by insisting they are the same and applying extra words to define a woman you are being incredibly sexist towards women.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Women and trans women are not the same, can never be the same thing. In your head you are adding on words to define the difference. All you need to define the difference is the word trans.

In fact in your dogged support of trans women by insisting they are the same and applying extra words to define a woman you are being incredibly sexist towards women.

Sex refers to a persons genitalia, sexism refers to a prejudice of a person with a certain set of genitalia. A transexual woman has the same genitalia as you, you share the same sex. You refusing to refer to them as the same sex is closer to sexism by the definition of the word. Transphobic would be a better adjective, but still if youre gonna label anybody as sexist, its not gonna be the ones labeling people in-line with their sex is it. You'll need a new label to describe that kind of 'prejudice', mrs dont label me.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Withano

Sex refers to a persons genitalia, sexism refers to a prejudice of a person with a certain set of genitalia. A transexual woman has the same genitalia as you, you share the same sex. You refusing to refer to them as the same sex is closer to sexism by the definition of the word. Transphobic would be a better adjective, but still if youre gonna label anybody as sexist, its not gonna be the ones labeling people in-line with their sex is it. You'll need a new label to describe that kind of 'prejudice', mrs dont label me.

Sex refers to sexual organs, the anatomy of a persons reproductive system and a lifetime of experience. A transexual woman is not the same as me. You can phobic me as much as you like it is just words and doesn't make it a fact. You are displaying a prejudice against women.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Sex refers to sexual organs, the anatomy of a persons reproductive system and a lifetime of experience. A transexual woman is not the same as me. You can phobic me as much as you like it is just words and doesn't make it a fact. You are displaying a prejudice against women.

No they're not the same. Hence the words cis/trans to differentiate.

The same as man/woman differentiates between two humans with distinct differences.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by jaxie

Women and trans women are not the same, can never be the same thing. In your head you are adding on words to define the difference. All you need to define the difference is the word trans.

In fact in your dogged support of trans women by insisting they are the same and applying extra words to define a woman you are being incredibly sexist towards women.

Yes the word trans does define the difference, but only when referring to the trans person. When talking about a non trans person the word trans isn't applicable, so we could say 'non-trans person' instead (like I just did). Let's say we aren't talking about specific gender, how else other than saying 'non-trans person' would we go about that? And all the word cis means is 'non-trans'. And in that first sentence, is my use of 'non trans person' offensive?

I'm sorry you see that as a sexist way of thinking, but it isn't, I'm purely talking about making a conversation easy to understand, and that the word isn't used to add a label, but to describe who is being referred to, and I don't think I can demonstrate that any more clearly than that ^, so we may just have to agree to disagree, but I'm absolutely not being sexist towards women in any way.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Jamie89

Yes the word trans does define the difference, but only when referring to the trans person. When talking about a non trans person the word trans isn't applicable, so we could say 'non-trans person' instead (like I just did). Let's say we aren't talking about specific gender, how else other than saying 'non-trans person' would we go about that? And all the word cis means is 'non-trans'. And in that first sentence, is my use of 'non trans person' offensive?

I'm sorry you see that as a sexist way of thinking, but it isn't, I'm purely talking about making a conversation easy to understand, and that the word isn't used to add a label, but to describe who is being referred to, and I don't think I can demonstrate that any more clearly than that ^, so we may just have to agree to disagree, but I'm absolutely not being sexist towards women in any way.

I'll just add to this that I have exactly the same views when it comes to trans men and non trans men. So if those views make me sexist then I guess I'm sexist towards both men and women... which I don't think is possible but whatever.

This also applies to this...

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

As a man reading this thread I can make the following observations.

1. Men are trying to tell women how they should feel, what they should accept, how they should be referred to

2. The woman's position is being actively undermined

This doesn't seem particularly progressive to me.

The conversation is mainly about transwomen because the subject of Anne's comments, what the thread is about, is a trans woman. And generally they are more about transwomen because womens rights are seen as being more at threat. But I should be just as free to give my opinion on trans issues as anyone else, even if it is a trans woman that's being discussed. Trans issues aren't something that should be exclusively discussed by women.