[kirklancaster]

[QUOTE=chuff me dizzy;9951512]I agree it is the best,but I raised my eldest 2 children alone for most of their childhood and their youth,until I married my 2nd husband when my son was 22 and my daughter 20 ,I have never had any trouble at all with them, they never got into trouble at school or outside, strict but fair parenting is the answer and there must be a line of being the parent and them the child ,sadly today a lot of parents are more interested in being on Facebook with their mates all day ,one of my biggest bug bears is seeing parents pick their kids up from school texting as they walk home while little kid run on in front or lags behind them .. PUT YOUR PHONE DOWN ask them what sort of of day they've had, what they had for dinner,the buck stops with the parents, not schools ,not social media, not video games ,social service, they are YOUR children its up to you to guide them[/QUOTE]

A SCORCHINGLY excellent post, Chuff - CRAMMED with COMMON SENSE and TRUTH.

[jaxie]

I have to agree with much of what has been said about parenting. That is the most important foundation in any kid's life and can make all the difference in regard to whether they get into trouble of any kind or not. I think a good solid home and some discipline weights the advantages for children.

But there are also outside factors that can influence, even when children have had a good stable upbringing and also having a rubbish childhood doesn't always mean you are destined for the dark side either.

With regard to stop and search specifically it is far from the ideal solution to knife crime but if that's all that is on the table, because how can you police peoples intent, then so be it. Some action is better than no action.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Cherie

So what is your solution to the problem right now, apart from everyone upping sticks and moving out of their communities which was your solution to the problem on Saturday

Easy, put more money into the police so there's more of a presence on the street without the need to resort to prejudice to invade people's privacy. It started with Cameron and it's only gotten worse with May, I remember a while ago, a police officer spoke out about the lack of vital resources needed to police the streets and how there's not enough funding to have enough people patrolling and keeping watch, it created quite a stir if I remember right.

Originally Posted by Brillopad

People didn’t die to potentially allow people to walk around carrying knives and guns unchallenged. If some groups are more likely to carry it makes sense they would be more likely to be searched. The innocent have nothing to fear.

People died so we could have the rights that we have, Stop and Search infringes on those rights and it encourages Racial Profiling which creates societal problems in itself as you create situations that are endorsed by the system in which certain races will be treated with more suspicion.

Searching people without cause for suspicion is beyond the pale, it makes me sad to see how little people care about their own rights to endorse it.

A person cannot support things like Stop and Search and then pretend they care about their rights or the sacrifices others have made to preserve them. It's irreconcilable.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I have to agree with much of what has been said about parenting. That is the most important foundation in any kid's life and can make all the difference in regard to whether they get into trouble of any kind or not. I think a good solid home and some discipline weights the advantages for children.

But there are also outside factors that can influence, even when children have had a good stable upbringing and also having a rubbish childhood doesn't always mean you are destined for the dark side either.

With regard to stop and search specifically it is far from the ideal solution to knife crime but if that's all that is on the table, because how can you police peoples intent, then so be it. Some action is better than no action.

True Jaxie, and what is being overlooked by some on here, is that the very POSSIBILITY of being 'Stopped and Searched' could be ENOUGH of a DETERRENT to dissuade some young people from carrying knives or other lethal weapons and as the maxim goes; If you pack a gun you'll end up using it one day', so just ONE child dissuaded justifies 'Stop and Search' - in my opinion.

[rusticgal]

Originally Posted by jaxie

I have to agree with much of what has been said about parenting. That is the most important foundation in any kid's life and can make all the difference in regard to whether they get into trouble of any kind or not. I think a good solid home and some discipline weights the advantages for children.

But there are also outside factors that can influence, even when children have had a good stable upbringing and also having a rubbish childhood doesn't always mean you are destined for the dark side either.

With regard to stop and search specifically it is far from the ideal solution to knife crime but if that's all that is on the table, because how can you police peoples intent, then so be it. Some action is better than no action.

You are so right. You can be a great parent but if your child gets mixed up with the wrong company then anything can happen. You can teach your child right from wrong but they can be drawn into wrong doings with a fear of being 'weak'. It's tough being a parent and as good as you think you are..out of your sight who knows what they are getting involved in..getting influenced in...even getting bullied into something they know is wrong but don't have the maturity to get out of it.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy;9952645[B

]Easy, put more money into the police so there's more of a presence on the street without the need to resort to prejudice to invade people's privacy. [/B]It started with Cameron and it's only gotten worse with May, I remember a while ago, a police officer spoke out about the lack of vital resources needed to police the streets and how there's not enough funding to have enough people patrolling and keeping watch, it created quite a stir if I remember right.



People died so we could have the rights that we have, Stop and Search infringes on those rights and it encourages Racial Profiling which creates societal problems in itself as you create situations that are endorsed by the system in which certain races will be treated with more suspicion.

Searching people without cause for suspicion is beyond the pale, it makes me sad to see how little people care about their own rights to endorse it.

A person cannot support things like Stop and Search and then pretend they care about their rights or the sacrifices others have made to preserve them. It's irreconcilable.

I did say earlier in the thread more police are needed, but they need to have to relevant powers to do their job otherwise they are just a presence which isn't enough of a deterrant in the current climate in my opinion.

[Kazanne]

I saw an interview about this yesterday ,two policemen talking to a gang of youths,while one was talking the others were making gun gestures and giggling behind,so there is no respect from these people for the police ,they have no respect for anyone,I'm not sure a larger police presence will make much difference,but it's worth a try,but given the climate and mindset of these gangs if they want to kill,they will and no amount of police will stop them.I also noticed all of the gang had their faces covered !!

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

I saw an interview about this yesterday ,two policemen talking to a gang of youths,while one was talking the others were making gun gestures and giggling behind,so there is no respect from these people for the police ,they have no respect for anyone,I'm not sure a larger police presence will make much difference,but it's worth a try,but given the climate and mindset of these gangs if they want to kill,they will and no amount of police will stop them.I also noticed all of the gang had their faces covered !!

Well exactly but this is also why random stop and search is unlikely to actually make any difference to the numbers hurt and killed in knife crime... The people who are likely to go so far as to actually stab someone aren't going to be deterred by the possibility of being searched, because they just don't care... They'll happily take the risk and carry one anyway.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Searching people without cause for suspicion is beyond the pale, it makes me sad to see how little people care about their own rights to endorse it.

Using my well-documented and incredible psychic powers, I have a theory on that one. It's NOT that people don't care about their own rights. They claim that they would be happy to be searched / have their kids searched "for the greater good" but in reality, they would be highly offended to be searched. What people actually believe, is that they're not "that sort" of person and so stop and search will not happen to them or affect them. Their own privacy will not be affected, only the privacy of "those dodgy sorts you see walking around".

That, combined with a complete lack of understanding that freely handing over these rights to the state doesn't necessarily stop "when you say so". Totally overlooking the fact that one day they'll probably be like "Oh OK well yes, THIS one is a step too far for me" but because of earlier compliance en-masse, the response will be "lol too late, this snowball is well and truly rolling now".

[Ammi]

..I think respect for the police also comes with community policing from an early age as the ‘first solution’...so that small children don’t see police as the ‘enemy’, as it were but... they do see the importance of policing is society and respect it..and that community policing progresses to teen years etc the police being active in community projects and focus for young people...all working together and all respecting each other...

[bots]

Apart from the obvious invasion into personal privacy, the act of stop and search is demeaning to the individual. It implies guilt whether proven or not.

If we could put 100% trust into the police and know that they always acted with the best intentions, then at a stretch it could be seen as acceptable. Unfortunately, the police are not made up of 100% saints. Some of the biggest crooks in the land find their way into the police force. I could also see this type of activity being contracted out to the private sector, which opens it up even more to abuse.

While it may seem like a quick fix, I think it would ultimately lead to more problems than it solved. It's never a good idea to implement new procedures to combat a single type of event, because it never ends up working out that way. The knock on effects would be considerable

[Cherie]

Funnily enough when I was out and about yesterday I saw two vehicles pulled over by the police could have been they just had a tail light missing though...

[Livia]

My brother was stopped and searched countless times when we were younger and living in London. He never once asked "is it because I'm Jewish?". The fact is that knife crime and other violent crimes are, in a lot of cases, black on black crime.

I'd like to see more black police officers and more accountability from the families of underage young people caught up in this kind of life. Everyone gets blamed, the government, the police... but never the parents or parent that is responsible for their child till they're 18.

[Cherie]

Occasionally at my sons College they have those arches that you walk though that pick up if you are carryng a knife, he says most of the students are happy to walk through it..and as a parent I don't have an issue with it either, I don't want to think of my son sitting next to someone who is carrying a knife in class

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Cherie

I did say earlier in the thread more police are needed, but they need to have to relevant powers to do their job otherwise they are just a presence which isn't enough of a deterrant in the current climate in my opinion.

Of course it would, people aren't likely to kill each other as much in the view of a police officer. Stop and Search is just a rights eroding plaster on a bullet wound that is a lack of police presence on the streets.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

Occasionally at my sons College they have those arches that you walk though that pick up if you are carryng a knife, he says most of the students are happy to walk through it..and as a parent I don't have an issue with it either, I don't want to think of my son sitting next to someone who is carrying a knife in class

There's a pretty big difference between metal detectors and having someone actively stick their hands inside your coat / up and down your body, though. The biggest concern is the invasion of personal space, surely. Some people are fine with that, and that's great... but some people are really not OK with strangers having the right to pat them up and down.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There's a pretty big difference between metal detectors and having someone actively stick their hands inside your coat / up and down your body, though. The biggest concern is the invasion of personal space, surely. Some people are fine with that, and that's great... but some people are really not OK with strangers having the right to pat them up and down.

Fair enough, though if you get pulled over at the airport if you want to proceed you have to put it, and if you don't then its bye bye your holidays, the uptake at airports is 100 per cent, is it so much to ask to stop some kid being murdered? it would take a few seconds out of your day.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Livia

My brother was stopped and searched countless times when we were younger and living in London. He never once asked "is it because I'm Jewish?". The fact is that knife crime and other violent crimes are, in a lot of cases, black on black crime.

I'd like to see more black police officers and more accountability from the families of underage young people caught up in this kind of life. Everyone gets blamed, the government, the police... but never the parents or parent that is responsible for their child till they're 18.

It annoys me when everyone gets blamed other than the culprits themselves,when they are found to be carrying weapons they should be given more than a slap on the wrist,and their parents brought to book too.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

[/B]


Fair enough, though if you get pulled over at the airport if you want to proceed you have to put it, and if you don't then its bye bye your holidays, the uptake at airports is 100 per cent, is it so much to ask to stop some kid being murdered? it would take a few seconds out of your day.

The issue is consent, though... you know that it's going to happen at the airport, so by choosing to fly, you consent to going through security checks. It's totally different to being pulled aside whilst walking down a public street. And the issue really isn't how long it takes.

[bots]

Originally Posted by Cherie

[/B]


Fair enough, though if you get pulled over at the airport if you want to proceed you have to put it, and if you don't then its bye bye your holidays, the uptake at airports is 100 per cent, is it so much to ask to stop some kid being murdered? it would take a few seconds out of your day.

We always say that we shouldn't change our way of life when there are terrorist incidents, because to combat it would reduce our human rights. Combating knife crime through stop an search is exactly the same thing, so clearly it can't be acceptable either.

I want to cut out knife crime as much as anyone else, but stop and search isn't the solution.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The issue is consent, though... you know that it's going to happen at the airport, so by choosing to fly, you consent to going through security checks. It's totally different to being pulled aside whilst walking down a public street. And the issue really isn't how long it takes.

okay make it a stop and search with concent then, you are assuming people wouldn't give their consent, Germyle consented yesterday and you cut him down, saying oh you say that now etc etc... pretty sure most people living in an area where knife crime is prevalent would give consent, no body seems to have an issue with the privacy being invaded when they are off on their jollies, it's more like get it done, where's the bar

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

We always say that we shouldn't change our way of life when there are terrorist incidents, because to combat it would reduce our human rights. Combating knife crime through stop an search is exactly the same thing, so clearly it can't be acceptable either.

I want to cut out knife crime as much as anyone else, but stop and search isn't the solution.

what is the solution then and please don't say more police on the streets as that is pretty obvious

education in the future, though tbf knife crime has been spoken about for years in schools and that hasn't really helped

[bots]

Originally Posted by Cherie

what is the solution then and please don't say more police on the streets as that is pretty obvious

education in the future, though tbf knife crime has been spoken about for years in schools and that hasn't really helped

i would offer a knife amnesty where people were encouraged to hand over obvious weapons. Then I would come down very hard on anyone that committed a knife crime. If the crime gets a life changing sentence, people will soon stop carrying them. It won't stop the hardened few, but it will stop the majority which should be what it's all about.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Cherie

okay make it a stop and search with concent then, you are assuming people wouldn't give their consent, Germyle consented yesterday and you cut him down, saying oh you say that now etc etc... pretty sure most people living in an area where knife crime is prevalent would give consent, no body seems to have an issue with the privacy being invaded when they are off on their jollies, it's more like get it done, where's the bar

It's not exactly consent if there are obvious implications to refusing though, is it?

"Excuse me sir, can I search you for illegal items?"

"No."

"OH then I assume you ARE carrying illegal items "



I agree with the above; much harsher penalties for those who are caught, combined with searches if there is good reason to suspect someone is carrying a weapon (like it's been spotted, or a tip-off), would make a far better deterrent than random stop and searches.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's not exactly consent if there are obvious implications to refusing though, is it?

"Excuse me sir, can I search you for illegal items?"

"No."

"OH then I assume you ARE carrying illegal items "



I agree with the above; much harsher penalties for those who are caught, combined with searches if there is good reason to suspect someone is carrying a weapon (like it's been spotted, or a tip-off), would make a far better deterrent than random stop and searches.

so they can't carry out the search but it identifies the person as someone of interest?