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Cherie · 12-04-2018, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

People dislike "travellers" for good reason

They can dislike whoever they like, alot of people dislike alot of people, if the crime was committed by any other group we wouldn't be dragging everyone associated with that group through the mud that is the point I am making, it wouldn't be tolerated on the forum.

Cherie · 12-04-2018, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The police issue is complicated because while it would be great if these people would stop, the police can only act within the bounds of what is or isn't illegal. Placing flowers in public (for any reason) is not illegal, so the police can't force them to stop doing it.

Its like... I've had a few addicts fall asleep in my shop, and refuse to leave... and had to call the police for assistance. As its technically a licensed premises, the police CAN forcibly remove them from the shop, but as soon as they're a foot outside the door, they have to let them go - because they haven't actually broken any law. They usually end up passed out on the bench 3 meters from the door. Which isn't ideal, but at least it's out of the shop. But yeah my point is; until they break a law, the police can't do anything about it, sadly... So they're just trying to get it to blow over without incident.

Ifbthe residents are feeling harassed or threatened though, could they potentially apply for a restraining order or similar? Then the police can remove people who violate the order. We have a trespass order against 5 or 6 individuals. Although I'm unsure about how one gets a restraining order against several people / without knowing their names.

tbf they are tying the tributes to someones property, they are not laying them on the pavement.

Cherie · 12-04-2018, 09:48 AM

Slightly off topic but still on topic Dr Pam Spur was the Psychologist on the 5 Live phone in about this topice this morning

Thought you would like to know that LT

Crimson Dynamo · 12-04-2018, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherie

Slightly off topic but still on topic Dr Pam Spur was the Psychologist on the 5 Live phone in about this topice this morning

Thought you would like to know that LT

Not the ...Sperminator?

user104658 · 12-04-2018, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherie

tbf they are tying the tributes to someones property, they are not laying them on the pavement.

I think (I'm not sure, though) that that would be some sort of civil issue rather than a criminal one, so the owner of the property would probably have to get some sort of cease & desist type thing before the police could act? I'm sure there are weird laws about gardens, like it's not trespassing for someone to walk through your garden to knock your door, but would be if they entered your home... But you still can tell people to leave your garden because it's not a public space, either.

.

Cherie · 12-04-2018, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Not the ...Sperminator?

Cherie · 12-04-2018, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think (I'm not sure, though) that that would be some sort of civil issue rather than a criminal one, so the owner of the property would probably have to get some sort of cease & desist type thing before the police could act? I'm sure there are weird laws about gardens, like it's not trespassing for someone to walk through your garden to knock your door, but would be if they entered your home... But you still can tell people to leave your garden because it's not a public space, either.

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I don't know where it would lie in law, but if that fence blows down its the property owners responsibility so its their property

bots · 12-04-2018, 10:28 AM

If the police shot an ISIS terrorist and then the terrorist family came and lay flowers at the scene, there would be outrage and there would be lynching if it was repeated.

Cherie · 12-04-2018, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

If the police shot an ISIS terrorist and then the terrorist family came and lay flowers at the scene, there would be outrage and there would be lynching if it was repeated.

True

user104658 · 12-04-2018, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

If the police shot an ISIS terrorist and then the terrorist family came and lay flowers at the scene, there would be outrage and there would be lynching if it was repeated.

I sort of think that's over the top though. I mean what this guy was doing was immoral and awful, but he was a petty thief / fraudster... Not a mass murderer or terrorist.

Beso · 12-04-2018, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherie

They can dislike whoever they like, alot of people dislike alot of people, if the crime was committed by any other group we wouldn't be dragging everyone associated with that group through the mud that is the point I am making, it wouldn't be tolerated on the forum.

jaxie · 12-04-2018, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ammi

...but yet no ‘angered resident’ has stated that to the media in anything they’ve said with their reasoning also, so far as I can see ...that burglaries are an issue in that area...which is interesting also...actually I’m just having thoughts about the Tony Martin case...with one of the first things said there in the media...’that travellers had been a problem in the area’ leading up to...

They said on the BBC news yesterday some of the residents wouldn't be interviewed because they are afraid and have been threatened and the couple have had to be taken into protective custody due to threats. Just because the police aren't releasing the threats to the world doesn't mean they aren't happening though.

It was also widely reported that this man and other member of the family are a gang that prey on the elderly and disabled and have previously been convicted of doing so and served prison time.

jaxie · 12-04-2018, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I sort of think that's over the top though. I mean what this guy was doing was immoral and awful, but he was a petty thief / fraudster... Not a mass murderer or terrorist.

He was a person with a long string of convictions for preying on vulnerable people. Let's not paint him pink. You've got to be pretty hard faced to cheat and rob the vulnerable. And let's not forget he went into that home with a weapon.

user104658 · 12-04-2018, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaxie

He was a person with a long string of convictions for preying on vulnerable people. Let's not paint him pink. You've got to be pretty hard faced to cheat and rob the vulnerable. And let's not forget he went into that home with a weapon.

I'm not "painting him pink", I said he was doing things that were immoral and awful, but they're still not on par with mass murder or terrorism. In my opinion obviously. I guess some people might think they are

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jaxie · 12-04-2018, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm not "painting him pink", I said he was doing things that were immoral and awful, but they're still not on par with mass murder or terrorism. In my opinion obviously. I guess some people might think they are

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Oh it's only intent to murder and grevious bodily harm. I get it now.

I am bemused why some people feel a need to try to excuse someone who went into someone elses house with a weapon.

Weapon = intent. Let's not kid ourselves. That struggle in that kitchen was a struggle for survival.

user104658 · 12-04-2018, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaxie

Oh it's only intent to murder and grevious bodily harm. I get it now.

I am bemused why some people feel a need to try to excuse someone who went into someone elses house with a weapon.

Weapon = intent. Let's not kid ourselves. That struggle in that kitchen was a struggle for survival.

So you do think it's on a par with mass murder or terrorism?

jaxie · 12-04-2018, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

So you do think it's on a par with mass murder or terrorism?

If the intention is to do harm it is the same intention, isn't it?

Is an elderly person's life at home worth less somehow?

user104658 · 12-04-2018, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaxie

If the intention is to do harm it is the same intention, isn't it?

Is an elderly person's life at home worth less somehow?

No, and again (despite apparent desperation to claim that I am) I'm not making excuses for the guy nor am I saying it's wrong that he was stabbed..

... But I find the assertion that a burglary with a screwdriver (which shows willingness to cause physical harm, not intent) is as bad as mass murder or terrorism to be pretty out there. But it's your opinion and I'm not trying to force you to change it? My opinion is that, as bad as it is, it's not on that same level. We can surely agree to disagree here.

jaxie · 12-04-2018, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

No, and again (despite apparent desperation to claim that I am) I'm not making excuses for the guy nor am I saying it's wrong that he was stabbed..

... But I find the assertion that a burglary with a screwdriver (which shows willingness to cause physical harm, not intent) is as bad as mass murder or terrorism to be pretty out there. But it's your opinion and I'm not trying to force you to change it? My opinion is that, as bad as it is, it's not on that same level. We can surely agree to disagree here.

If there was no intent then you wouldn't take the screwdriver with you. There are burglaries without weaponry.

I don't think there are degrees of bad when it comes to the word murder personally, someone or someone's are dead it's pretty bad all round.

In this case I feel pretty sorry for the person who has been forced to kill someone in self defence. Now there is no intent, just horrible circumstance.

We can agree to disagree, but you ruined the sentiment and the point and weight of your post with the highlighted jibe.

user104658 · 12-04-2018, 12:14 PM

It's not a jibe, it's a fact that people are constantly talking about "making excuses" when no excuses are being made. No one is trying to excuse anyone of anything.

Beso · 12-04-2018, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaxie

Oh it's only intent to murder and grevious bodily harm. I get it now.

I am bemused why some people feel a need to try to excuse someone who went into someone elses house with a weapon.

Weapon = intent. Let's not kid ourselves. That struggle in that kitchen was a struggle for survival.

A burglar with a screwdriver..perhaps needed to i dunno....unscrew things!!

bots · 12-04-2018, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parmnion

A burglar with a screwdriver..perhaps needed to i dunno....unscrew things!!

ah right, that makes so much more sense. He was there to do some surprise DIY for them. I mean, if he had a knife, he was probably going to peel some potatoes, right?

Kazanne · 12-04-2018, 01:52 PM

I don't know why we are even arguing about this,it is intimidating to the people who have had to flee their home because of threats and flowers laid outside their home,the person to blame is dead by his own deeds really,so if his family want to lay flowers etc, fine just not where he scared and attacked two old age pensioners ,so much so one killed him,he lived by the sword,he died by the sword,take the flowers and lay them where he lived,no one then will bother removing them,

thesheriff443 · 12-04-2018, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's not a jibe, it's a fact that people are constantly talking about "making excuses" when no excuses are being made. No one is trying to excuse anyone of anything.

You are banging your head against a brick wall.