[arista]

This Great Book
tells the truth

[user104658]

DR in an ideal world people would keep their personal beliefs personal and it would be no one elses' concern... But largely I agree with Trumpet on this one. As long as these fairy tales are being peddled in the education system and in politics, it is everyone's concern, and perfectly valid to speak out against them.

Have religious belief removed from political rhetoric and only taught in schools in an unbiased manner as opinion and then we can talk about people being able to hold their own personal beliefs. The fact is, though, if religion wasn't pushed on children as fact, the vast majority of currently "religious people" wouldn't follow a structured religion in the first place.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I expect most people still "touch wood" when someone says something like "well at least your children are healthy" or some such thing


But I would not want my children to be taught in school that if you dont connect with mother earth in those situations the bad thing could happen. If it was being taught then I would like it exposed as bollocks and without evidence

Spoiler:

*touches wood just in case*

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

Einstein was a Jew.

And actually, the existence of religious scientists is not a myth at all. We have one in the family... I've mentioned him before. A physicist. Of course people on here have said he can't possibly be religious and a Jew because it doesn't fit in with their own opinions. And obviously they know more about him and his beliefs than he does.

Already covered by LT but... Einstein was non-religious. He was Jewish by blood, and at times feigned a vague sort of Christianity (because it was the first half of the 20th century, he was essentially defecting to the west, and Americans at the time were even bigger bible-thumpers than they are now) but he had no religious belief and (in my opinion, quite rightly) thought that it was inconceivably arrogant of humans to believe that they had a simple answer to the mystery of creation.

Religious people likely to falsely claim that he was religious in arguments against religion by misquoting or selectively quoting him, most commonly his insistence that "God does not play dice". The lie / misconception being that he was referring to a defined, abrahamic God, when in fact he was talking about "The Universe", the unknown, the mystery. He had some spirituality, he was not religious.

Also, the argument was in defiance against the randomness of Quantum Theory, and he actually in his later days admitted that he may have been wrong in his insistence anyway. A variation of Quantum Theory is pretty much accepted scientific fact at this point. It's in everyday practical use.

[Josy]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I presume you are referring to the Christian God, if so then I am afraid that is not what the bible says.


In fact that particular god hated on quite a lot of things and indeed people and nations


and love is a very fickle and ambiguous human emotion -hence the very high divorce rate

Any god

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Already covered by LT but... Einstein was non-religious. He was Jewish by blood, and at times feigned a vague sort of Christianity (because it was the first half of the 20th century, he was essentially defecting to the west, and Americans at the time were even bigger bible-thumpers than they are now) but he had no religious belief and (in my opinion, quite rightly) thought that it was inconceivably arrogant of humans to believe that they had a simple answer to the mystery of creation.

Religious people likely to falsely claim that he was religious in arguments against religion by misquoting or selectively quoting him, most commonly his insistence that "God does not play dice". The lie / misconception being that he was referring to a defined, abrahamic God, when in fact he was talking about "The Universe", the unknown, the mystery. He had some spirituality, he was not religious.

Also, the argument was in defiance against the randomness of Quantum Theory, and he actually in his later days admitted that he may have been wrong in his insistence anyway. A variation of Quantum Theory is pretty much accepted scientific fact at this point. It's in everyday practical use.

The reality is his works, if he was religious he would not have bothered to discover what he did - his works are the evidence of his atheism, if any were needed.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

If there was no religion in schools and no religion in politics then no one would care if you believe in gods. If religion wasnt the root source of terrorism no one would care


Sadly all 3 things exist so it needs to be exposed as frequently as possible

But again LT,it's not religions fault it's the way men deal with it.

[Ammi]

...well a large thing with a religious belief/faith is that people with those beliefs can never ever 'prove' in living years, that possibility just isn't there for them, it's only through death that the 'invisible' can be seen, but they have faith throughout their lives and a faith in no way different to any scientists/with no religious beliefs, who also may never prove their theories thought their lifetimes but still have an absolute belief and faith in them...

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

DR in an ideal world people would keep their personal beliefs personal and it would be no one elses' concern... But largely I agree with Trumpet on this one. As long as these fairy tales are being peddled in the education system and in politics, it is everyone's concern, and perfectly valid to speak out against them.

Have religious belief removed from political rhetoric and only taught in schools in an unbiased manner as opinion and then we can talk about people being able to hold their own personal beliefs. The fact is, though, if religion wasn't pushed on children as fact, the vast majority of currently "religious people" wouldn't follow a structured religion in the first place.

I certainly don't think religion should be used within politics. We only have to look at Christian based politics in America to see its not a good idea

Christians and I believe Muslims, are raised to spread the faith and if that is part of their doctrine, I don't see how that could or should be stopped.

Religious education imo should not be taught as fact and certainly not through fear. In my opinion all religions, including atheism should be taught as existential philosophy. There should be no coercion towards one or tother but if a student takes up a belief during those study groups, there should be classes available to enhance and support what has now become their religion.

[user104658]

There should be classes designed to enhance their understanding through unbiased logic, reasoning, evidence and self-reflection. Unfortunately that lack of bias is impossible with religion, because literally all of the "evidence" is hand-me-down folklore.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...well a large thing with a religious belief/faith is that people with those beliefs can never ever 'prove' in living years, that possibility just isn't there for them, it's only through death that the 'invisible' can be seen, but they have faith throughout their lives and a faith in no way different to any scientists/with no religious beliefs, who also may never prove their theories thought their lifetimes but still have an absolute belief and faith in them...

there is a chasm of difference in religious faith based on some 2000 year old middle eastern cult and modern scientific thought based on the best evidence available

its not the same thing at all

[Niamh.]

What I've never understood about religion/God (mainly a religious God I guess) is why he/she/it would want people to believe in him/her/it based on faith and some ancient unreliable stories? If he/she/it created us as relatively intelligent beings why would he want people to waste the life he/she/it gave us worshiping him/her/it blindly and fighting over who is right or wrong or whatever or wasting our lives trying to prove or disprove their existence?

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

There should be classes designed to enhance their understanding through unbiased logic, reasoning, evidence and self-reflection. Unfortunately that lack of bias is impossible with religion, because literally all of the "evidence" is hand-me-down folklore.

Or historical data that we haven't properly deciphered yet.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

What I've never understood about religion/God (mainly a religious God I guess) is why he/she/it would want people to believe in him/her/it based on faith and some ancient unreliable stories? If he/she/it created us as relatively intelligent beings why would he want people to waste the life he/she/it gave us worshiping him/her/it blindly and fighting over who is right or wrong or whatever or wasting our lives trying to prove or disprove their existence?

dont try and use logic


Due to one fairly innocuous incident in "the garden of eden" his precious creations are forever more sinners and thousands of years later the only way this omnipresent galaxy maker can think of to make us not sinners is to nail "his son" to a cross, smash his knees and kill him. Now if we believe that he was god we are not sinners, the rest are and will be damned forever?


Aye right

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I presume you are referring to the Christian God, if so then I am afraid that is not what the bible says.


In fact that particular god hated on quite a lot of things and indeed people and nations


and love is a very fickle and ambiguous human emotion -hence the very high divorce rate

Everything always comes back to bloody divorce with you.

I think Kizzy's single so go and make sweet love.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

dont try and use logic


Due to one fairly innocuous incident in "the garden of eden" his precious creations are forever more sinners and thousands of years later the only way this omnipresent galaxy maker can think of to make us not sinners is to nail "his son" to a cross, smash his knees and kill him. Now if we believe that he was god we are not sinners, the rest are and will be damned forever?


Aye right

I don't want to knock people for having beliefs or whatever, I just think maybe that it's a waste of this one life that we have to be thinking that this is like some sort of waiting room for our "real" life. Shouldn't we just try to enjoy this one as much as we can because chances are it's all we have and that's not so bad is it? I mean we aren't going to know any different afterwards

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

there is a chasm of difference in religious faith based on some 2000 year old middle eastern cult and modern scientific thought based on the best evidence available

its not the same thing at all

..it is the same thing though/a faith in something that has yet to be proven, regardless of what it is and an 'absolute' can never be proven in religion until after the living years, so it will always remain a 'theory' and the total faith in that theory...children believe in Father Christmas, I'm sure that your children did...we know for sure as adults that Father Christmas doesn't exist even though in a child's heart and mind, he most certainly does exist..but we've learned that he doesn't through growing up and through adulthood...if sadly a child were to die in childhood/in still believing in Father Christmas ...then for that child, Father Christmas is an 'absolute', he has been proven because he hadn't been disproven....

[Marsh.]

So let's mock religious people who have a belief/faith in something unproven but LT knew Einstein personally to use him as one of his arguments?

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

What I've never understood about religion/God (mainly a religious God I guess) is why he/she/it would want people to believe in him/her/it based on faith and some ancient unreliable stories? If he/she/it created us as relatively intelligent beings why would he want people to waste the life he/she/it gave us worshiping him/her/it blindly and fighting over who is right or wrong or whatever or wasting our lives trying to prove or disprove their existence?

..so yeah, basically live and let live..?...that's what I think as well..(other than obviously not ignoring anything extreme in religion..)...

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

So let's mock religious people who have a belief/faith in something unproven but LT knew Einstein personally to use him as one of his arguments?

..well there are rumours that LT's that old and Arista has kept him going with some of his robot bits...so maybe/interesting theory..(but still to be proven though....)...

[Livia]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

If there was no religion in schools and no religion in politics then no one would care if you believe in gods. If religion wasnt the root source of terrorism no one would care


Sadly all 3 things exist so it needs to be exposed as frequently as possible

Hitler wasn't particularly religious. Religious people don't have the monopoly on badness... I think you'll find that's humans in general.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..so yeah, basically live and let live..?...that's what I think as well..(other than obviously not ignoring anything extreme in religion..)...

Yeah like those suicide bombers, what a waste of life by being so brain washed into thinking that this wasn't "the real life" and if this isn't "the real life" why bother with all the fighting and trying to convert people in the name of God anyway?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..well there are rumours that LT's that old and Arista has kept him going with some of his robot bits...so maybe/interesting theory..(but still to be proven though....)...

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yeah like those suicide bombers, what a waste of life by being so brain washed into thinking that this wasn't "the real life" and if this isn't "the real life" why bother with all the fighting and trying to convert people in the name of God anyway?

On the flip side, you've got countless volunteers with the Red Cross and the Red Crescent, going into war zones to help people. The Salvation Army raising money for refugees, the Church Army doing the same... No one's all good or all bad, human beings are a bit of both, whether they're religious or not.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I don't want to knock people for having beliefs or whatever, I just think maybe that it's a waste of this one life that we have to be thinking that this is like some sort of waiting room for our "real" life. Shouldn't we just try to enjoy this one as much as we can because chances are it's all we have and that's not so bad is it? I mean we aren't going to know any different afterwards

I dont think we have knocked people here just the ludicrous nature of the main religions