What's the vibe? Is he saying anything new? Is he communicating his points through the medium of experimental dance?

[arista]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

What's the vibe? Is he saying anything new? Is he communicating his points through the medium of experimental dance?

No he still Demands a debate with PM
and that will not happen.


Nothing New
we need his White Paper in Nov.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

No he still Demands a debate with PM
and that will not happen.


Nothing New
we need his White Paper in Nov.

He should engage in a debate with Alex Salmond, Alex Salmond is the current elected leader of the Scottish Govt.
David Cameron is the elected PM of the whole UK.

If Scotland votes for independence it will have happened in his time as PM, he should have been seen to lead the battle to keep the Scots as part of the UK.
Failure to do so will reflect very badly on him long term.

What is he really afraid of however as to a debate with Alex Salmond.

[arista]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

He should engage in a debate with Alex Salmond, Alex Salmond is the current elected leader of the Scottish Govt.
David Cameron is the elected PM of the whole UK.

If Scotland votes for independence it will have happened in his time as PM, he should have been seen to lead the battle to keep the Scots as pasrt of the UK.
Failure to do so will relect very badly on him long term.

What is he really afraid of however as to a debate with Alex Salmond.

No the PM has stated
its not a England Vs Scotland fight.
Its Scotland asking its wants to go it alone.

Debate on Radio 5 live now
Alex on it.



The PM is not getting into a Debate with Alex
Fact

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by arista

Alex is Live on BBC1HD now

Stop calling him "alex" his name is Mr. Salmond to you.

[arista]

Originally Posted by lostalex

Stop calling him "alex" his name is Mr. Salmond to you.

Alex Salmond


I can call him Alex.
Fact

[fingers]

Originally Posted by lostalex

Stop calling him "alex" his name is Mr. Salmond to you.

He's wee fat Eck up here!

[jackc1806]

Unfortunately, Scotland will fall on its arse without the UK

[Lee.]

Originally Posted by jackc1806

Unfortunately, Scotland will fall on its arse without the UK

What makes you say that?

[user104658]

I'm being slowly swayed towards independence, to be honest. Not because I think we would he instantly better off - but looking at the long-term prospects it seems like a sensible option. I actually think there would be a good few hard years or even decades to get through the teething problems. However... Currently it feels a lot like - despite the current governments fiddled figures - Britain is a sinking ship. It's still getting worse, economically and politically, especially for average working families, and I can't see things improving any time soon. And with that in mind... Scotland will be the first to be thrown to the wolves if things get much worse. Followed by the North of England, then Wales, then middle England, then the south and finally precious London. That's the order of importance.

I'm more concerned with my children's long-term wellbeing and prospects than my own short term comfort... So it's starting to seriously feel like a viable option.

It won't happen though, for one simple reason: most people are in the grips of political apathy, they dont understand the choice they're being asked to make, and when people don't understand a choice they will automatically stick with familiar territory. They feel like that's "safe", that "things are OK as they are". Not realising that the UK is in for some drastic changes either way... Either path is taking a risk.

[Lee.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm being slowly swayed towards independence, to be honest. Not because I think we would he instantly better off - but looking at the long-term prospects it seems like a sensible option. I actually think there would be a good few hard years or even decades to get through the teething problems. However... Currently it feels a lot like - despite the current governments fiddled figures - Britain is a sinking ship. It's still getting worse, economically and politically, especially for average working families, and I can't see things improving any time soon. And with that in mind... Scotland will be the first to be thrown to the wolves if things get much worse. Followed by the North of England, then Wales, then middle England, then the south and finally precious London. That's the order of importance.

I'm more concerned with my children's long-term wellbeing and prospects than my own short term comfort... So it's starting to seriously feel like a viable option.

It won't happen though, for one simple reason: most people are in the grips of political apathy, they dont understand the choice they're being asked to make, and when people don't understand a choice they will automatically stick with familiar territory. They feel like that's "safe", that "things are OK as they are". Not realising that the UK is in for some drastic changes either way... Either path is taking a risk.

I agree completely.. I think the Yes campaigners have to get out there in the next year and target those that are undecided/unaware/scared of change and give them the facts and answers to their questions.

I have friends who don't vote and don't care one way or the other.. Which I'll never understand. I'll personally be voting yes so hopefully my children will grow up in a fair, prosperous and proud country.

Originally Posted by Lee.

I agree completely.. I think the Yes campaigners have to get out there in the next year and target those that are undecided/unaware/scared of change and give them the facts and answers to their questions.

I have friends who don't vote and don't care one way or the other.. Which I'll never understand. I'll personally be voting yes so hopefully my children will grow up in a fair, prosperous and proud country.

Are you emigrating?

[Z]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I'm being slowly swayed towards independence, to be honest. Not because I think we would he instantly better off - but looking at the long-term prospects it seems like a sensible option. I actually think there would be a good few hard years or even decades to get through the teething problems. However... Currently it feels a lot like - despite the current governments fiddled figures - Britain is a sinking ship. It's still getting worse, economically and politically, especially for average working families, and I can't see things improving any time soon. And with that in mind... Scotland will be the first to be thrown to the wolves if things get much worse. Followed by the North of England, then Wales, then middle England, then the south and finally precious London. That's the order of importance.

I'm more concerned with my children's long-term wellbeing and prospects than my own short term comfort... So it's starting to seriously feel like a viable option.

It won't happen though, for one simple reason: most people are in the grips of political apathy, they dont understand the choice they're being asked to make, and when people don't understand a choice they will automatically stick with familiar territory. They feel like that's "safe", that "things are OK as they are". Not realising that the UK is in for some drastic changes either way... Either path is taking a risk.

This has been my main point whenever I've discussed the idea with friends. People in Scotland haven't been driven to a point where they've challenged their position in the United Kingdom. This has been a political movement by politicians, not a grass roots movement by the people of Scotland. So while there are a great number of people who are for independence with very valid and sound reasoning; they do not outnumber those who are either against it; don't see the point in it; or don't care about it.

However, like you, I've been pushed away from being firmly against independence as I've seen the country descend into a ludicrous farce under David Cameron's leadership. His decision making is going to alienate Scottish people even further and I think that if he continues to do so, people who are hesitant to push for Scottish independence will be kicked off that ship and take the plunge into voting for it. Scotland is not a right wing nation, it never has been and it never will be.

Originally Posted by Zee

This has been my main point whenever I've discussed the idea with friends. People in Scotland haven't been driven to a point where they've challenged their position in the United Kingdom. This has been a political movement by politicians, not a grass roots movement by the people of Scotland. So while there are a great number of people who are for independence with very valid and sound reasoning; they do not outnumber those who are either against it; don't see the point in it; or don't care about it.

However, like you, I've been pushed away from being firmly against independence as I've seen the country descend into a ludicrous farce under David Cameron's leadership. His decision making is going to alienate Scottish people even further and I think that if he continues to do so, people who are hesitant to push for Scottish independence will be kicked off that ship and take the plunge into voting for it. Scotland is not a right wing nation, it never has been and it never will be.

Don't think you're special. He alienates motherlanders just as much as colonists.

[Z]

Originally Posted by Jesus.

Don't think you're special. He alienates motherlanders just as much as colonists.

I don't, but Scotland is the only part of the UK with an active independence drive on the go.

[arista]

The UK can go on (including Wales and N. Ireland)


And Scotland can go on free from Westminster

[arista]

"going to alienate Scottish people even
further and I think that if he continues
to do so, people who are hesitant
to push for Scottish independence"


Yes Zee
The Fire is Burning


Free Scotland from Westminster

[fingers]

No, arista
there is
no fire
burning.

It died with Thatcher.

another sign

of the times.

[Alf]

Odds

No to Independence 1/7
Yes to Independence 4/1

[lostalex]

unfortunately people are pussies these days. everyone will vote for the status quo.

[Z]

I don't think Scotland would fall on its arse without the UK. I think we'd have to expect that there would be a lot of noticeable changes to begin with, perhaps our economy wouldn't be very strong while we worked out the finer details, but ultimately I think we've got more than enough established infrastructure to adapt to being a small, sustainable nation of 5-6 million people.

The more the Conservatives drive the country into the ground, the more I think we'd be better off as an independent country. I detest Alex Salmond and his ploys for attention but he's very good at what he does, you have to give him that.

[jackc1806]

Originally Posted by Zee

I don't think Scotland would fall on its arse without the UK. I think we'd have to expect that there would be a lot of noticeable changes to begin with, perhaps our economy wouldn't be very strong while we worked out the finer details, but ultimately I think we've got more than enough established infrastructure to adapt to being a small, sustainable nation of 5-6 million people.

The more the Conservatives drive the country into the ground, the more I think we'd be better off as an independent country. I detest Alex Salmond and his ploys for attention but he's very good at what he does, you have to give him that.

Agree with your point on the Conservatives. I've always thought as Salmond as wanting power tbh

[lostalex]

Scotland would be just fine not being part of the UK, they'd still have a very special relationship with England, obviously. Just like America and Canada are still very close, even though Canada is a separate country.

I'm sure Scotland and England could negotiate partnerships economically and militarily, just like The USA and Canada have partnerships like NAFTA and NORAD.

[MTVN]

Scotland would be very reliant on their oil if they did get become independent, and that's such an unstable market that it doesn't really offer that much economic security, the richest reserves of the oil have already been used

What happens with the likes of HBOS and RBS as well, who needed the British government to bail them out when they racked up such massive debts? Plus Britain is trusted as an important and secure economic power, an independent Scotland would miss out on that and find it harder

Scotland being independent would only harm them economically imo, and most of the arguments for independence seem to mainly be based on emotional nationalism and resentment of the power and importance of London in the UK. I especially can't stand Salmond, seems to just have a big chip on his shoulder

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Scotland would be very reliant on their oil if they did get become independent, and that's such an unstable market that it doesn't really offer that much economic security, the richest reserves of the oil have already been used

What happens with the likes of HBOS and RBS as well, who needed the British government to bail them out when they racked up such massive debts? Plus Britain is trusted as an important and secure economic power, an independent Scotland would miss out on that and find it harder

Scotland being independent would only harm them economically imo, and most of the arguments for independence seem to mainly be based on emotional nationalism and resentment of the power and importance of London in the UK. I especially can't stand Salmond, seems to just have a big chip on his shoulder

oil is an unstable market?? lol, no, actually having a resources based economy is very stable. the only reason Canada and Australia did so well compared to the rest of the world from the 2008 financial crisis is because they both have resources based economies. Scotland would have actually been better off not being so deeply connected to the London financial system.