[MTVN]

I don't think it's a good idea to pardon crimes like arson and bombings tbh, gives a green light to anyone who thinks they have a worthy cause to use violence to achieve it

[Alf]

The Worlds gone bonkers! Never did I see myself quoting Jodie Marsh in agreement.



"In this day and age I’d be EMBARRASSED to call myself a feminist..... truly. New wave feminists are female-hating, man-hating, ranting hippies with far too much time on their hands who are offended by all the wrong things"

Jodie Marsh

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Alf

The Worlds gone bonkers! Never did I see myself quoting Jodie Marsh in agreement.



"In this day and age I’d be EMBARRASSED to call myself a feminist..... truly. New wave feminists are female-hating, man-hating, ranting hippies with far too much time on their hands who are offended by all the wrong things"

Jodie Marsh

[Jack_]

I don't really know where else to put this, and don't think it warrants its own thread - but I watched this the other night after it was shared onto my social media feed, and I think there's some really interesting reflections on (toxic) masculinity, intersectionality, anti-feminism, white nationalism, and the rise Trump - among others.

Youtube video

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Jack_

I don't really know where else to put this, and don't think it warrants its own thread - but I watched this the other night after it was shared onto my social media feed, and I think there's some really interesting reflections on (toxic) masculinity, intersectionality, anti-feminism, white nationalism, and the rise Trump - among others.

Youtube video

1.15 in, he says he was inspired by women's studies and gender studies. That explains his hatred of men.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Alf

1.15 in, he says he was inspired by women's studies and gender studies. That explains is hatred of men.

And, with all due respect Alf, '1.15 in' explains why this post has missed the mark completely. At no point does he imply or explicitly state he hates men. I expect you already know that, but if you don't then not watching is the reason why.

Be better.

[RileyH]

Originally Posted by Alf

The Worlds gone bonkers! Never did I see myself quoting Jodie Marsh in agreement.



"In this day and age I’d be EMBARRASSED to call myself a feminist..... truly. New wave feminists are female-hating, man-hating, ranting hippies with far too much time on their hands who are offended by all the wrong things"

Jodie Marsh

aah legend Jodie <33

[Marches]

Omg if I hear the word toxic masculinity again in my life time I’ll scream

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Jack_

I don't really know where else to put this, and don't think it warrants its own thread - but I watched this the other night after it was shared onto my social media feed, and I think there's some really interesting reflections on (toxic) masculinity, intersectionality, anti-feminism, white nationalism, and the rise Trump - among others.

Youtube video

I managed to get through it and it seems like a fairly genre view of gender relations in society. Maybe this is not supposed to be rigorous, and I gathered that, but I feel like compared to what I’ve even read, heard and seen on women’s studies, this was a little bit thin on supporting it's premise...

He seems to be able to "emote" his points well and seems quite analytical at other points, but his interpretations of gender traits and his description of how this supports his interpretation of toxic masculinity is a little thin on detail and very analog in supporting his premise. The way I interpreted it is he was saying, “Well, society has these issues and it's occurring between these groups disproportionately” ... ok... but he doesn't seem to be looking at the other side of the coin, of how his view of masculinity (which we don't apparently share) has played a role in shaping society in a positive manner (to all the same groups benefit). So it seems like a bit of a paradox, almost religious at some segments... an us versus them perspective, evil versus good, sort of view if you will. We have to convince men to “be our allies”, etc. Which means he apparently thinks they’re the enemy…

What he does a lot of in his speech is trying to latch onto what the viewer is feeling about their position in society. For example, if you’re a woman and you have yourself been taught you’ve lost in the genetic lottery, then you’re going to feel like his points speak to you and how you feel about your placement in society. This doesn’t necessarily validate his argument(s) or yours and I’s experience.

The interviewer describes his views at sections as “inspiring” and “powerful”, which also clues us in right away this isn’t even a debate, but a call to arms for our empathy.

So the woman asks at about 9:15--I'll transcribe...

“@And out of that group of men that sort of have—the men that have been centered in our society so far—come a lot of men that we would say are somehow problematic and are creating social problems. So you have studied amongst them, militia men, mass shooters, anti-feminist men, domestic terrorists… and in your new book, nazi’s and white supremacists. These are men who perhaps come out of your interest that your activism and your pedagogy is in line with your research. Today we describe them, even in popular culture, as toxic men. Men who are embodying a toxic masculinity. And that’s what I’ve been asked to sorta focus on for our talk today…

So can you first like—define masculinity for me—and talk about a little bit about the difference between masculinity and being a person with a male body… and then reflect on that idea of toxic masculinity?”

“@Let me go back to the preface, the predicate of your question, um yes… I have focused on a lot of guys who are angry and complain a lot about masculinity. And the ones that think they’re not empowered—that they’re not privileged… and I do this for political reason… because we in the Gender Studies world—feminist studies world—come out of talking about um—masculinity as being powerful. And um-I think… I think that’s not men’s experience of this… and I think this is an interesting an important sort of entry point into this conversation… so like feminism basically offered women a symmetry between the social and the individual. The social observation was women as a group are not in power. And individually, women didn’t feel powerful. So feminism basically said let’s address both of those, the individual powerlessness and the social powerlessness. When you apply that same syllogism to men—men are in power—(everyone agrees)—but when you say, therefore men must feel powerful… they look at you cross-eyed, I don’t have any power, my wife bosses me around, my kids boss me around, my boss bosses me around. Now what happened as a result of that, so-so, with women have a kind of symmetry, with men you have asymmetry… no all of the power has not trickled down to individual men feeling powerful.”

I mean that’s a lot to unpack. The interviewer did a terrible job of stopping him at several points in the middle of his monologues to see where this was going and how this exactly supports his premise of toxic masculinity?... it seemed like a very confusing answer and he failed to describe what masculinity even is (in his definition).

Also, “Women don’t feel powerful”. Those aren’t just generalities, he’s claiming to know how all women feel. Does it make this the rule? There used to be a blockage on women's rights, but in 2018, can we really say the same is true? Do they have all the power and can they exercise control over the group? Of course not. But this wasn’t the purpose of suffrage or feminism.

It seems like he's arguing that there’s a big black hole underneath our feet sucking away at the foundation of women-hood to keep us in place. It’s big, it’s treacherous and oh it’s there… and you would feel it there if we just paid attention. Can we see how this is a problematic way to make any argument?

Personally speaking, I do think that men do tend to do a better relationship with the idea and word “power”, especially personal empowerment. Women, do tend to have more issues with personal power. It’s more common for women, but not necessarily the rule. Is this because of –grrr—evil socially constructed masculinity – or -- is this because of socially constructed femininity?

I'd argue--anecdotal of course--that I know more men (especially white men) that feel lost, disillusioned and disconnected from their personal power than I do women who feel lost and these things. The common link seems to be that these men are told they must be more feminine, must be more empathetic, must suppress their inner drive and not be aggressive...

I'd argue that a good case study should be done to examine the benefits of masculinity in women, but that it doesn't even have to be that. If women are being signaled in popular media that she is not in power, that she should be thin as a straw and etc in order to feel powerful... then someone out there will believe it. Just the same, they will also believe they are a victim if told enough... so our feelings are not a good indicator of what we need to do to tackle these divisions.

On the same token, what effect does popular culture have on men? I think this interview is very dis-compassionate (thanks identity politics). I'll give it to him that he's admitted that he helps to perpetuate these stereotypes against men for political reasons, but can anyone but me see the problems with this? He's using the same tools the other side would use while arguing against them.

[Denver]

It means Equal Rights anybody who wants more is not a feminist

[Mystic Mock]

Feminism is supposed to be equality for men and women, the good and the bad.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Alf

The Worlds gone bonkers! Never did I see myself quoting Jodie Marsh in agreement.



"In this day and age I’d be EMBARRASSED to call myself a feminist..... truly. New wave feminists are female-hating, man-hating, ranting hippies with far too much time on their hands who are offended by all the wrong things"

Jodie Marsh

Sorry Alfie, but LOL... JODIE MARSH? Are you kidding me? Do you think that Jodie Marsh has ever spent any time thinking about feminism? She's only famous because she was a career cock-pleaser and obvious non-thinker and now she's being quoted in a thread about feminism? I'll tell you, Alfie... If feminist knowledge was gunpowder, Jodie Marsh wouldn't have enough to blow her hat off.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

Sorry Alfie, but LOL... JODIE MARSH? Are you kidding me? Do you think that Jodie Marsh has ever spent any time thinking about feminism? She's only famous because she was a career cock-pleaser and obvious non-thinker and now she's being quoted in a thread about feminism? I'll tell you, Alfie... If feminist knowledge was gunpowder, Jodie Marsh wouldn't have enough to blow her hat off.

Isn't that "slut shaming", Livia?

She is obviously a feminist...

Spoiler:

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Isn't that "slut shaming", Livia?

She is obviously a feminist...

Spoiler:

No, idiot shaming, TS.

That picture makes her look like the product of a late-night knee-trembler between David Dickinson and a large string bag of walnuts.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Livia

No, idiot shaming, TS.

That picture makes her look like the product of a late-night knee-trembler between David Dickinson and a large string bag of walnuts.

[Marches]

Feminists itt if you saw injustice for men’s rights would you campaign or help them?

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Marches

Feminists itt if you saw injustice for men’s rights would you campaign or help them?

Yes, without a doubt. And plenty of women do. One of my female friends from uni who is now a barrister regularly works pro bono for Fathers for Justice... for instance. Everyone faces injustice and it's the job of the whole society to recognise it and to stand up to it wherever and whenever it rears its head.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Livia

Yes, without a doubt. And plenty of women do. One of my female friends from uni who is now a barrister regularly works pro bono for Fathers for Justice... for instance. Everyone faces injustice and it's the job of the whole society to recognise it and to stand up to it wherever and whenever it rears its head.

The problem we have is there's injustice on both sides. But some people only care more about one gender.

Father's for justice needs support as there's some men out there who aren't allowed to see their kids because their ex partner's are using the kids as a weapon, so then it has to go through the court system .

[Liberty4eva]

Originally Posted by lewis111

There's loads of debates as to wether Courtney can be a feminist because she's a man that dresses as a woman
People think Ann saying women are equal already doesn't make her a feminist

And obviously Donal Trump recent stated he wasn't a feminist

So what does the word and movement mean to you, and by your definition are you a feminist?

What Feminism is on paper is radically different than what it is in reality. When was the last time you heard a self-proclaimed "feminist" voice concern over the inequality men experience in child-custody cases or something like that? Feminism, if defined by what it is in practice, is for the advancement of the interests of one gender over the other. And do you know what the ironic thing is? It has made women more miserable today than they were generations ago.

Men and women are different, both in body and mind. Embrace what you are and you will live a happier life.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Liberty4eva

What Feminism is on paper is radically different than what it is in reality. When was the last time you heard a self-proclaimed "feminist" voice concern over the inequality men experience in child-custody cases or something like that? Feminism, if defined by what it is in practice, is for the advancement of the interests of one gender over the other. And do you know what the ironic thing is? It has made women more miserable today than they were generations ago.

Men and women are different, both in body and mind. Embrace what you are and you will live a happier life.

That's the problem we keep seeing the terrible examples of "feminists" , that's why I don't like that word it's been tainted .

I watched a video on YouTube and a woman was raising awareness on female abuse victims ,which is fair enough but as soon as the presenter mentioned that men get abused as well ,she suddenly went quiet and it's like it hurt her to agree with him and she barely agreed through gritted teeth style.

When we think back to when women couldn't vote and had trouble getting the jobs they wanted , it was then about fighting for them to be treated the SAME as men .And for EQUALITY .

But now we've gone backwards, there's alot of double standards. There's a few who abuse feminism and seem to have a stuck up bitchy attitude and think they're superior to men .

I'm a woman who hates INEQUALITY on both sides, one gender shouldn't get priority over the other .

[Marches]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

That's the problem we keep seeing the terrible examples of "feminists" , that's why I don't like that word it's been tainted .

I watched a video on YouTube and a woman was raising awareness on female abuse victims ,which is fair enough but as soon as the presenter mentioned that men get abused as well ,she suddenly went quiet and it's like it hurt her to agree with him and she barely agreed through gritted teeth style.

When we think back to when women couldn't vote and had trouble getting the jobs they wanted , it was then about fighting for them to be treated the SAME as men .And for EQUALITY .

But now we've gone backwards, there's alot of double standards. There's a few who abuse feminism and seem to have a stuck up bitchy attitude and think they're superior to men .

I'm a woman who hates INEQUALITY on both sides, one gender shouldn't get priority over the other .

Slay

I think the number of radical feminist that abuse the label is bigger than a lot of people think tho. I’ve met these sorta people before and I didn’t even think they existed irl

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Marches

Slay

I think the number of radical feminist that abuse the label is bigger than a lot of people think tho. I’ve met these sorta people before and I didn’t even think they existed irl

I've seen tons of feminazi videos on YouTube and it's embarrassing and ridiculous .

There's some decent feminists around,but it's mostly the crazy ones that get all the lime light and they talk utter BS .

[Marches]

Originally Posted by GoldHeart

I've seen tons of feminazi videos on YouTube and it's embarrassing and ridiculous .

There's some decent feminists around,but it's mostly the crazy ones that get all the lime light and they talk utter BS .

Yeah it’s pretty rediculous lol. A lot of the nice feminists really mean well they’re just told by other woman statistics and the mentality that ‘if you’re not a feminist, you don’t believe in equality!’. I’d literally adore the movement if a lot of people in it didn’t have this mentality as it’s so backwards.

[Ammi]

...I think, whether female or male..most who support feminism, also support equalism...as those who support and strive for equalism also support feminism...apart from a few extremes and there are always some extremes in most things...feminism though by definition is about the support of women’s rights of equality and fairness in the things that haven’t reached that equality yet, those specific things...but that doesn’t mean that any inequalities for men are dismissed or disregarded though...that’s also very much in the focus as well and part of being a feminist...maybe feminism and equalism should be considered as two entirely separate things ..(even though for me, they’re both a combined thing and goal..)...just with a potential danger that ‘femism’ could alienate, to hinder progress...

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Marches

Yeah it’s pretty rediculous lol. A lot of the nice feminists really mean well they’re just told by other woman statistics and the mentality that ‘if you’re not a feminist, you don’t believe in equality!’. I’d literally adore the movement if a lot of people in it didn’t have this mentality as it’s so backwards.

You make it sound like feminist is a dirty word - why wouldn’t any woman be proud to be a feminist. Feminism simply means believing in female equality so it makes no sense for anyone who claims to believe in equality to deny being a feminist. I think they see feminism as meaning more than that when it doesn’t. People really need to grow a pair.