[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by UserSince2005

Hell is too good for this ****

[Livia]

Having watched the programme and listened to all the unsubstantiated circumstantial evidence and hearsay, I believe it less than I did yesterday.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Livia

Having watched the programme and listened to all the unsubstantiated circumstantial evidence and hearsay, I believe it less than I did yesterday.

:

Exactly the same for me.

I also am all the way with Kazanne too.

The more the programme went on, the more I found myself moving to not trusting their testimony.

I had questions and challenges, I'd have loved to be able to put to them and particularly their parents too.

By the end of the programme, I was convinced in a challenged confrontational questioning as to their statements.
The holes left from that questioning, would likely leave nothing left.
No wonder they chose a soapbox style documentary.

Michael Jackson was strange, being strange doesn't make someone an abuser of anyone.
From what these 2 came over like last night, I found like yourself, to just disbelieve their accounts more.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

:

Exactly the same for me.

I also am all the way with Kazanne too.

The more the programme went on, the more I found myself moving to not trusting their testimony.

I had questions and challenges, I'd have loved to be able to put to them and particularly their parents too.

By the end of the programme, I was convinced in a challenged confrontational questioning as to their statements.
The holes left from that questioning, would likely leave nothing left.
No wonder they chose a soapbox style documentary.

Michael Jackson was strange, being strange doesn't make someone an abuser of anyone.
From what these 2 came over like last night, I found like yourself, to just disbelieve their accounts more.

I just get the impression that you've gone into this with preconceptions and a bias for wanting to believe in his innocence, Joey, it's pretty clear that that's the case for a few people.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I just get the impression that you've gone into this with preconceptions and a bias for wanting to believe in his innocence, Joey, it's pretty clear that that's the case for a few people.

I had no strong feelings for Michael Jackson either way prior to this. I'd wager Joey hasn't either. Your point seems to be that people who think Jackson is a paedophile have come into this with no preconceptions, but those who think the whole thing is hogwash had biased, preconceived ideas from the off.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

I had no strong feelings for Michael Jackson either way prior to this. I'd wager Joey hasn't either. Your point seems to be that people who think Jackson is a paedophile have come into this with no preconceptions, but those who think the whole thing is hogwash had biased, preconceived ideas from the off.

I'm commenting purely on the fact that the people who "don't believe it" watching the interviews, also strongly expressed "not believing it" early in the thread before they had seen or read anything about it... thus, it seems fairly clear that those people were never likely to really consider the possibility of guilt.

I'm not saying that I think everyone should come out of it saying "YUP definitely a paedophile", but coming out of it still adamant that everything is 100% innocent seems like it must take a logical leap or two.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I just get the impression that you've gone into this with preconceptions and a bias for wanting to believe in his innocence, Joey, it's pretty clear that that's the case for a few people.

Yes.
I hold the view anyone should be views as possibly innocent until proven guilty.

It's why things like investigations are done and trials occur.
Jackson has already had extensive investigation and trial.
While he was alive.

I've never liked or supported media led kangaroo style court and judgements.


They were not convincing at all.
No one saw anything they said happened.
Their parents were with them.
They said nothing to their parents.
To anyone in fact.

Now they are, when Jackson can no longer again submit himself to answer all this again.

It seems the other way to me actually TS, I'm sorry to say.

That some want to think him guilty and won't accept he's been extensively investigated and tried before.
Acquitted too.

That's a dangerous precedent to follow on such serious allegations.
One thankfully, I'd never want to follow.

I would never describe myself as a Jackson fan.
I like much of his music work.
I watched this, very one sided documentary, and even being so weighted against him.
They did not convince me at all, in fact the more they went on, the less I believed them.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Yes.
I hold the view anyone should be views as possibly innocent until proven guilty.

It's why things like investigations are done and trials occur.
Jackson has already had extensive investigation and trial.
While he was alive.

I've never liked or supported media led kangaroo style court and judgements.


They were not convincing at all.
No one saw anything they said happened.
Their parents were with them.
They said nothing to their parents.
To anyone in fact.

Now they are, when Jackson can no longer again submit himself to answer all this again.

It seems the other way to me actually TS, I'm sorry to say.

That some want to think him guilty and won't accept he's been extensively investigated and tried before.
Acquitted too.

That's a dangerous precedent to follow on such serious allegations.
One thankfully, I'd never want to follow.

I would never describe myself as a Jackson fan.
I like much of his music work.
I watched this, very one sided documentary, and even being so weighted against him.
They did not convince me at all, in fact the more they went on, the less I believed them.

Eloquently put, Joey.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Yes.
I hold the view anyone should be views as possibly innocent until proven guilty.

In legal terms, I agree with you but I don't think legal proceedings and personal opinion are ultimately, or necessarily, interchangeable and I think it's a mistake to view the world in those terms. Doing so requires believing in an infallible legal system and unfortunately, such a thing simply does not exist. Each to their own on that though, I suppose.

Taking the legal judgement out of it; you're not even doing what you suggest you support? You say that everyone should be viewed as possibly innocent until proven guilty, yet you go on to say that you feel that Jackson is definitely innocent. And in doing so, you demonstrate that you do NOT believe that everyone should be viewed as innocent until proven guilty, as you will happily assert that Robson and Safechuck are guilty of lying about this abuse when there is - likewise - no concrete evidence on which to base that assumption that guilt? It's bias, Joey. The most you can say if you truly believe in hardline proof, is that there's not enough evidence to condemn Jackson OR his accusers - and yet, you freely condemn his accusers on "personal feeling".

It seems the other way to me actually TS, I'm sorry to say.

That some want to think him guilty and won't accept he's been extensively investigated and tried before.
Acquitted too.

Historically I've actually been inclined to believe that MJ was "weird but not necessarily an abuser" - indeed to give him the benefit of the doubt due to lack of evidence - but having watched this and having read around it and watched other footage - as I agree that the documentary is biased - I honestly feel that the weight of circumstantial evidence at this point is heavily suggestive of there being inappropriate behaviour. Would it be enough for me to put him behind bars, if I was Judge Dredd and had absolute power to do so? No, probably not. But to circle back around; personal views and absolute legal certainty are not (and don't need to be) the same thing at all.

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I just get the impression that you've gone into this with preconceptions and a bias for wanting to believe in his innocence, Joey, it's pretty clear that that's the case for a few people.

My daughter a Jackson fan, wont even watch it and has dismissed it as lies ,and I think a lot of this has gone on, people don't want to believe, therefore they wont

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

My daughter a Jackson fan, wont even watch it and has dismissed it as lies ,and I think a lot of this has gone on, people don't want to believe, therefore they wont

And the same could be said the other way round Chuff,people have it in their head he was guilty and that wont ever change in their minds , I watched it and it made me feel even more that something was not on the level.

[Scarlett.]

I swear all of this already happened once before, not sure why the media are suddenly so surprised by the allegations.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Dia.

I swear all of this already happened once before, not sure why the media are suddenly so surprised by the allegations.

Its because its in 2 Hour Docu' for double day
special editing
Extending ever interview longer

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Dia.

I swear all of this already happened once before, not sure why the media are suddenly so surprised by the allegations.

Before, Michael Jackson walked out of court with all charges cleared.

[Crimson Dynamo]

spoiler details from tonites show

Spoiler:

Robson claims Jackson tried to have anal sex with him when he was 14

In one of the most disturbing moments of the second part of Leaving Neverland, Robson recalls a time where he had begun teaching dance choreography, and was invited to watch Jackson’s rehearsals for his History world tour.

“I don’t remember how exactly it evolved to this,” Robson says. “But what ended up happening is, Michael tried to penetrate me in my anus, with his penis. Trying for a while, I guess he was able to a bit, but it was really painful, too painful for me. So he stopped.”

“I don’t remember us talking about it, or acting like anything particularly different had happened. We kind of went back to our regular sexual routine.”

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

spoiler details from tonites show

Spoiler:

Robson claims Jackson tried to have anal sex with him when he was 14

In one of the most disturbing moments of the second part of Leaving Neverland, Robson recalls a time where he had begun teaching dance choreography, and was invited to watch Jackson’s rehearsals for his History world tour.

“I don’t remember how exactly it evolved to this,” Robson says. “But what ended up happening is, Michael tried to penetrate me in my anus, with his penis. Trying for a while, I guess he was able to a bit, but it was really painful, too painful for me. So he stopped.”

“I don’t remember us talking about it, or acting like anything particularly different had happened. We kind of went back to our regular sexual routine.”

So more of the same and why the need does he have to be so graphic ? but of course it does make it all so much more intriguing !! any peado watching that will be getting their rocks off.

[GoldHeart]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

So more of the same and why the need does he have to be so graphic ? but of course it does make it all so much more intriguing !! any peado watching that will be getting their rocks off.

Yeah feels like he's deliberately making it sound more & more graphic for the shock factor.

I'm less & less convinced it happened

[user104658]

Youtube video

Worth watching; he speaks a lot of sense whether you happen to believe the allegations or not.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Youtube video

Worth watching; he speaks a lot of sense whether you happen to believe the allegations or not.

This has already been posted.he does make sense he cant be seen to be taking one side of things considering what he says happened to him he has to be neutral.

[user104658]

Feldman also talks about why it's pointless to go into watching something like this if you've already made up your mind that they're lying. Which is quite relevant to this thread, IMO.

[Crimson Dynamo]

thing is all paedos dont abuse all children they come across they abuse the ones they think they can without being caught

[user104658]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

thing is all paedos dont abuse all children they come across they abuse the ones they think they can without being caught

Indeed which is why I think it's quite feasible that Macaulay Culkin is telling the truth about their relationship, but that's not really very meaningful in itself... he was at the peak of his fame at the time, where part of MJ's process seems to have been engaging with somewhat star-struck kids and families and making it seem like there were "big things ahead" with him as a friend. None of that applied to Culkin. Also, he had a very similar childhood to Jackson. It's perfectly feasible that they WERE just close as friends and doesn't mean that abuse didn't happen elsewhere. Especially as I personally don't think Jackson was "faking the friendships" just for the sexual aspect; the relationships were genuine in themselves but had "a darker side" along with the friendship.

[Vicky.]

So I ended up not going to sleep til 6am because I was watching both parts of this, along with reading a bunch of fan sites that apparently 'discredit' every single one of the
people who ever said anything about Jackson. I didn't look too much into this, but I didn't know there were more witnesses (of course, according to his lawyers more random people after money) and that he basically got off because a few kids said he had never touched them. Erm, thats not quite generally how paedophilia works. They don't tend to abuse every kid they come into contact with, and how the hell that was used to discredit the other kids I don't bloody know, but I guess thats the sad state of ur 'justice system'..and even moreso with sexual abuse where there is not likely to be much physical proof. Tbh, it sounds like this 'childlike persona' was a cover for his 'nighttime activities'. I still cannot believe the two mothers in the show didn't think anything of any of it but again, the fame dazzled them enough to make them not look after their kids properly it seems. Along with them 'falling for' the kid trapped in an adult body line. There is no reason for these men to lie now, and its also quite 'usual' (as usual as child abuse cases get) that they deny it was abuse or whatever to themselves but their perspective changes when they have children themselves. It sounds like he groomed them 'well', the basically coaching them what to say in court, telling them from aged 7 that they would go to prison too if ever found out, etc etc..its odd to think if they had not stood up for him, he probably would have gone to prison then.

I don't see any reason to disbelieve what they say. I really don't. Its even quite normal for groomed kids to still feel 'love' for the person they now recognise as their abuser so quite why so many fans seem to be using that against them..I don't get it really.

In short, I wish I had never read this thread last night as its lead to me feeling very zombified now. I fell asleep with maybe 30 mins left so watching the last bit of it now...but yeah. It sounded dodgy before, and I cannot really see any reason to disbelieve them...and the 'they want money!!!!!' excuse thats been trotted out so many times before really does not apply now either. They are not being compensated, and they have set the more rabid fans onto themselves too, for seemingly no reason. Why? Just why? I actually didn't know quite how nuch work some o the more obsessed fans put into twisting every thing in the sotory to make it 'nasty adults wanting money!'. Its possible a few of the people in this saga did, but its highly unlikely that he was totally innocent and everyone just kept trying to randomly extort him, and coming up with such elaborate stories even after there was no money left to be had...

Something else that interests me, is that I have sen a few people say that people are believing 'two proven liars'. Except, the only way these men are 'proven liars' is if you accept that they lied in court..which is accepting that MJ did touch them as kids?

I don't thin its realistic to ban his music totally. I don't thin its even needed really. He does not profit from it now, his kids have done **** all wrong. But again, I see no reason at all to disbelieve these men. Especially not for not acting like the 'perfect victims', erm, thats kind of how grooming works.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

So I ended up not going to sleep til 6am because I was watching both parts of this, along with reading a bunch of fan sites that apparently 'discredit' every single one of the
people who ever said anything about Jackson. I didn't look too much into this, but I didn't know there were more witnesses (of course, according to his lawyers more random people after money) and that he basically got off because a few kids said he had never touched them. Erm, thats not quite generally how paedophilia works. They don't tend to abuse every kid they come into contact with, and how the hell that was used to discredit the other kids I don't bloody know, but I guess thats the sad state of ur 'justice system'..and even moreso with sexual abuse where there is not likely to be much physical proof. Tbh, it sounds like this 'childlike persona' was a cover for his 'nighttime activities'. I still cannot believe the two mothers in the show didn't think anything of any of it but again, the fame dazzled them enough to make them not look after their kids properly it seems. Along with them 'falling for' the kid trapped in an adult body line. There is no reason for these men to lie now, and its also quite 'usual' (as usual as child abuse cases get) that they deny it was abuse or whatever to themselves but their perspective changes when they have children themselves. It sounds like he groomed them 'well', the basically coaching them what to say in court, telling them from aged 7 that they would go to prison too if ever found out, etc etc..its odd to think if they had not stood up for him, he probably would have gone to prison then.

I don't see any reason to disbelieve what they say. I really don't. Its even quite normal for groomed kids to still feel 'love' for the person they now recognise as their abuser so quite why so many fans seem to be using that against them..I don't get it really.

In short, I wish I had never read this thread last night as its lead to me feeling very zombified now. I fell asleep with maybe 30 mins left so watching the last bit of it now...but yeah. It sounded dodgy before, and I cannot really see any reason to disbelieve them...and the 'they want money!!!!!' excuse thats been trotted out so many times before really does not apply now either. They are not being compensated, and they have set the more rabid fans onto themselves too, for seemingly no reason. Why? Just why? I actually didn't know quite how nuch work some o the more obsessed fans put into twisting every thing in the sotory to make it 'nasty adults wanting money!'. Its possible a few of the people in this saga did, but its highly unlikely that he was totally innocent and everyone just kept trying to randomly extort him, and coming up with such elaborate stories even after there was no money left to be had...

Something else that interests me, is that I have sen a few people say that people are believing 'two proven liars'. Except, the only way these men are 'proven liars' is if you accept that they lied in court..which is accepting that MJ did touch them as kids?

I don't thin its realistic to ban his music totally. I don't thin its even needed really. He does not profit from it now, his kids have done **** all wrong. But again, I see no reason at all to disbelieve these men. Especially not for not acting like the 'perfect victims', erm, thats kind of how grooming works.

They said on oath that MJ never touched them, but we are now 10 after his death are supposed to believe their words now , which says he did , that is why they are NOW perceived as liars.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

They said on oath that MJ never touched them, but we are now 10 after his death are supposed to believe their words now , which says he did , that is why they are NOW perceived as liars.

So you get to decide which time they were lying? That's convenient