[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Oh Kazanne like you would have left your kids sleep with a 30 odd year old "lonely" man and think nothing of it, come off the stage

I would not ,but people are different and the ones mother said he was like a son so, she let him besides I doubt his bed or bedroom was a tiny little space like most are ,so even if they were in bed together I doubt they were side by side,and he did sleep on the floor a lot people always assume people cant sleep together without getting sexual,you can I've done it myself.I am not denying he was strange but I do not believe these two so far,and why if it was so awful has the one guy kept the jewellery MJ brought him,? give me facts and I will get off the stage.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

I would not ,but people are different and the ones mother said he was like a son so, she let him besides I doubt his bed or bedroom was a tiny little space like most are ,so even if they were in bed together I doubt they were side by side,and he did sleep on the floor a lot people always assume people cant sleep together without getting sexual,you can I've done it myself.I am not denying he was strange but I do not believe these two so far,and why if it was so awful has the one guy kept the jewellery MJ brought him,? give me facts and I will get off the stage.

I don't care if you change your mind or not, you already said enough by answering that question, no responsible parent would allow their 7 year old child share a bedroom with some 30 year old guy because it's dodgy as **** and he's dodgy as ****

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I'm relatively old and Iv had a life. I've studied criminals at degree level, I'm not daft, Iv been to jail's, nothing Iv seen tonight says they are lying

I'm not doubting that, The FBI secretly investigate Michael Jackson for four years - tracking his where abouts, his computers, phone calls, etc and release a 300 plus page file completely vindicating him, stating there was absolutely nothing to even remotely suggest he was an abuser, and the general public (and media) completely ignores it. Yet two admitted liars and perjurers (one of which who even refers to himself as a ‘master of deception’) can come out with a completely one sided, sensationalist story (yes story not documentary) which contains literally no evidence whatsoever (and is full of inconsistencies) and a large majority of the public doesn’t even question it.

The jurors who found Michael Jackson not guilty in his 2005 trial agree with the FBI. Juror Paulina Coccoz said: ‘It was pretty obvious there was no molestation done...it was pretty obvious that there were ulterior motives on behalf of the family. And the mother, she orchestrated the whole thing..there wasn’t a shred of evidence’.

Just because a story is graphic and disturbing doesn’t make it factual. Before you judge anything do your research. Facts don’t lie, people do.

The bottom line is..

If you want to view Michael Jackson as a pedophile, you will. It’s easy to do. He admitted to allowing children to sleep in his bedroom (which itself is the same size as a small two story house) and has been accused of child molestation more then once. He’s not the guy next door, was undeniably eccentric, and most certainly didn’t live a conventional life.

But to anyone who has bothered to look into the allegations against him - and I mean really look into them - there is more than enough evidence to demonstrate that he was a victim of extortion and of copycat false claims for the past twenty five years. Yet despite the Los Angeles Police Department stating that Jackson should be presumed to be innocent, despite a jury finding him not guilty on every single charge against him, despite the Los Angeles Department of Children and Family Services twice investigating and clearing him of wrongdoing, despite the FBI conducting a very thorough investigation in which no evidence of wrongdoing was found, and despite the cash grab lawsuits of his posthumous accusers being tossed out of court, the court of public opinion may sadly be what defines this saga and a large part of his legacy.

[AnnieK]

In all honesty kaz, I feel you are answering as a fan rather than a mum. Whether he slept on the floor, in a twin bed or strapped to the roof, he was a grown man wanting to sleep in the same room / area / bed as a kid that he wasn't related to. Any way I look at that, its wrong......from the parents view, wtf, anyone asked that to me with my son regardless of the status, riches or whatever, just no....but MJ was an adult....he was wrong. Then after doing whatever, dropping them for a younger midel is sick, cruel etc etc

Ill tell you what, had it been my kid he'd ****ed with, death would be preferable...sexual or emotional abuse

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I don't care if you change your mind or not, you already said enough by answering that question, no responsible parent would allow their 7 year old child share a bedroom with some 30 year old guy because it's dodgy as **** and he's dodgy as ****

You can swear as much as you like ,it doesn't make him guilty of being an abuser your opinion is valid to you ,as mine is to me, here we have two liars against a dead man.The parents were irresponsible but they got what they wanted out of it

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

In all honesty kaz, I feel you are answering as a fan rather than a mum. Whether he slept on the floor, in a twin bed or strapped to the roof, he was a grown man wanting to sleep in the same room / area / bed as a kid that he wasn't related to. Any way I look at that, its wrong......from the parents view, wtf, anyone asked that to me with my son regardless of the status, riches or whatever, just no....but MJ was an adult....he was wrong. Then after doing whatever, dropping them for a younger midel is sick, cruel etc etc

Ill tell you what, had it been my kid he'd ****ed with, death would be preferable...sexual or emotional abuse

I've already said Annie I would not have allowed it, I just don't trust the word of these two men, maybe they have done it because they were jealous ,but I do think money has a great deal to play in this,we all know he was very childlike and strange,but not seen any evidence that he was a peado.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

But to anyone who has bothered to look into the allegations against him - and I mean really look into them - there is more than enough evidence to demonstrate that he was a victim of extortion and of copycat false claims for the past twenty five years. Yet despite the Los Angeles Police Department stating that Jackson should be presumed to be innocent, despite a jury finding him not guilty on every single charge against him, despite the Los Angeles Department of Children and Family Services twice investigating and clearing him of wrongdoing, despite the FBI conducting a very thorough investigation in which no evidence of wrongdoing was found, and despite the cash grab lawsuits of his posthumous accusers being tossed out of court, the court of public opinion may sadly be what defines this saga and a large part of his legacy.

Possibly. Or possibly, the reason they are 'copycat' is that the same behaviour occurred in each instance.

Along with the parents being ridiculous for continuing to allow their kids to sleep there, MJ was quite ridiculous for (if he just had endless false claims about him) keep allowing random children to sleep in his bed beside him. Surely.

As for not being found guilty in a court, lets not pretend that sexual assault and such have a high conviction rate..hell even when there is a lot of physical proof the guilty tend to go free as its essentially made out to be 'his word against theirs'...

He might well be innocent, but I don't think so. I still like his music, he was a hell of an artist. He might be an endless victim of false claims. Or, he might not be and the reason the claims all seem the same is because the same thing happened, again and again.

Honestly, noone will ever know 'for sure' except those who were there at the time, meaning him, and the kids involved. No doubt more documentaries will come about...because the case, regardless of innocence or guilt, is so odd in so many bloody ways

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

You can swear as much as you like ,it doesn't make him guilty of being an abuser your opinion is valid to you ,as mine is to me, here we have two liars against a dead man.The parents were irresponsible but they got what they wanted out of it

Oh sorry I thought swearing would seal the deal

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It's highly unlikely to be anything else though lbr

Is it? How so?

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Well a man saying he wanked him off as a child would be a start

He could say he wanked off a flying pig, it's not evidence of anything.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

I'm relatively old and Iv had a life. I've studied criminals at degree level, I'm not daft, Iv been to jail's, nothing Iv seen tonight says they are lying

You've been to jail? Well, why didn't you say before! Who needs the FBI?

As for "nothing you've seen tonight". Tbf, it's a carefully edited film designed to suit one agenda.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Possibly. Or possibly, the reason they are 'copycat' is that the same behaviour occurred in each instance.

Along with the parents being ridiculous for continuing to allow their kids to sleep there, MJ was quite ridiculous for (if he just had endless false claims about him) keep allowing random children to sleep in his bed beside him. Surely.

As for not being found guilty in a court, lets not pretend that sexual assault and such have a high conviction rate..hell even when there is a lot of physical proof the guilty tend to go free as its essentially made out to be 'his word against theirs'...

He might well be innocent, but I don't think so. I still like his music, he was a hell of an artist. He might be an endless victim of false claims. Or, he might not be and the reason the claims all seem the same is because the same thing happened, again and again.

Honestly, noone will ever know 'for sure' except those who were there at the time, meaning him, and the kids involved. No doubt more documentaries will come about...because the case, regardless of innocence or guilt, is so odd in so many bloody ways

That's why I don't think he actually abused them as why would he after the trauma he went through going through court ,why would he risk it all again. but we have the other half tomorrow maybe we will see something more factual.He was stupid for letting them sleep over but so were their parents.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

I've already said Annie I would not have allowed it, I just don't trust the word of these two men, maybe they have done it because they were jealous ,but I do think money has a great deal to play in this,we all know he was very childlike and strange,but not seen any evidence that he was a peado.

I wasn't doubting you would let it happen to your.kids Kaz, I just can't believe that you, or anyone, could gloss over the fact that a grown man sleeping in the same room as non related boys is a normal occurrence and cant see that it is easily conceived to be a possible paedophile paradise to be given free access to pre-pubescent boys???

Given his money, legal team and advisors....why after the.first allegations and massive out of court settlement, did he not stop.....unless there was a "need" driving him????

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

That's why I don't think he actually abused them as why would he after the trauma he went through going through court ,why would he risk it all again. but we have the other half tomorrow maybe we will see something more factual.He was stupid for letting them sleep over but so were their parents.

But, after all the trauma in court, why would he then go onto sleep with yet another child? If he had experience of these horrible people and their lies and knew what it was like to deal with it, what possible reason would there be to allow the same thing to happen again

As I said, ****ing odd in many places this story.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

That's why I don't think he actually abused them as why would he after the trauma he went through going through court ,why would he risk it all again. but we have the other half tomorrow maybe we will see something more factual.He was stupid for letting them sleep over but so were their parents.

He wasn't stupid in letting them....he invited them. Although I agree, what parent would let it happen (apart from financial game which is more than ****ty, effectually prostituting your own kids)

[joeysteele]

Well, sorry but from watching this intently, I don't believe their accounts.

It strikes me the Parents were as strange as Michael Jackson.
It seems the moment these two got seemingly pushed out for Macaulay and the other one.

That is what is behind this storytelling now.

Macaulay and the other guy have continuously insisted nothing sexual took place with them and Michael.


I am with Kazanne on this.
I think had these done a confrontational documentary being independently questioned as to all their accounts.
I feel a lot of holes would appear in said accounts.

I'm not a strong Jackson fan, I like most, not all of his music.
I can't deny the history of pop would have a massive hole in it, without his input over the decades.

I've listened to them, long and hard tonight on this..
I've seen no passion or disdain for what they claim was done to them.

Sorry. I don't believe them.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

You've been to jail? Well, why didn't you say before! Who needs the FBI?

As for "nothing you've seen tonight". Tbf, it's a carefully edited film designed to suit one agenda.

What agenda is that?

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

But, after all the trauma in court, why would he then go onto sleep with yet another child? If he had experience of these horrible people and their lies and knew what it was like to deal with it, what possible reason would there be to allow the same thing to happen again

As I said, ****ing odd in many places this story.

I agree I just don't think he would risk that.

[Firewire]

It's hard for someone who has never been sexually abused to accuse some of lying about child sexual abuse.

I believe the victims at this stage, why wouldn't I? Perhaps their accounts aren't 100% accurate (but is anything ever 100% accurate when retold after 30 years...?)

Macaulay Culkin and Corey Feldman have said nothing sexual happened to them... because perhaps it didn't? Just because he is an alleged abuser doesn't mean he abused everyone.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Well, sorry but from watching this intently, I don't believe their accounts.

It strikes me the Parents were as strange as Michael Jackson.
It seems the moment these two got seemingly pushed out for Macaulay and the other one.

That is what is behind this storytelling now.

Macaulay and the other guy have continuously insisted nothing sexual took place with them and Michael.


I am with Kazanne on this.
I think had these done a confrontational documentary being independently questioned as to all their accounts.
I feel a lot of holes would appear in said accounts.

I'm not a strong Jackson fan, I like most, not all of his music.
I can't deny the history of pop would have a massive hole in it, without his input over the decades.

I've listened to them, long and hard tonight on this..
I've seen no passion or disdain for what they claim was done to them.

Sorry. I don't believe them.

Again, no one doubts that the parents are at fault....but you can see that Michaels behaviour towards the boys is strange???

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

What agenda is that?

To paint Jacko as a child abuser. Obviously. A one-sided viewpoint that leaves a lot of information out and doesn't address anything that goes against what they want the viewer to believe.

[Crimson Dynamo]

If you can't watch that and see two men not lying I'd suggest you are too young or blinded by fame

It's not complex

In fact it's pretty obvious

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

To paint Jacko as a child abuser. Obviously.

So do you think a man who has open admitted to sharing a bed with pre pubescent boys is normal?? Dropping said boy for a younger model when approaching puberty? Sharing a bed / bedroom with that CHILD??? Playing with the needs and.emotions of a child is abuse....whether you lay a finger on them or not

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Well, sorry but from watching this intently, I don't believe their accounts.

It strikes me the Parents were as strange as Michael Jackson.
It seems the moment these two got seemingly pushed out for Macaulay and the other one.

That is what is behind this storytelling now.

Macaulay and the other guy have continuously insisted nothing sexual took place with them and Michael.


I am with Kazanne on this.
I think had these done a confrontational documentary being independently questioned as to all their accounts.
I feel a lot of holes would appear in said accounts.

I'm not a strong Jackson fan, I like most, not all of his music.
I can't deny the history of pop would have a massive hole in it, without his input over the decades.

I've listened to them, long and hard tonight on this..
I've seen no passion or disdain for what they claim was done to them.

Sorry. I don't believe them.

The other one was Corey Feldman who released a statement yesterday Joey, and another thing that bothers me now,WHY has the one guy kept the jewellery that this so called abuser brought him, that is not normal behaviour,I think you might be right that jealousy has paid a big part in this, now it's payback time,just a shame MJ is not here to defend himself, I am a fan of MJ I went to see him on his BAD tour,but I do admit he was not like us but I just think he was trying to relive his childhood somewhat,kids made him happy nothing wrong with that imo. and what must his poor kids be going through now.

[Firewire]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

The other one was Corey Feldman who released a statement yesterday Joey, and another thing that bothers me now,WHY has the one guy kept the jewellery that this so called abuser brought him, that is not normal behaviour,I think you might be right that jealousy has paid a big part in this, now it's payback time,just a shame MJ is not here to defend himself, I am a fan of MJ I went to see him on his BAD tour,but I do admit he was not like us but I just think he was trying to relive his childhood somewhat,kids made him happy nothing wrong with that imo. and what must his poor kids be going through now.

Do you expect someone who has been sexually abused to act rationally?