[Parmy]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

So its the black guys faults the were racially abused because they're black and should expect it? Wow

Whatever ya say naihm.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

is realistic and wise enough to know that he is in London and black youths carry knives..

No, it's not wise to be racist, no matter how much you want it to be.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by parmnion

that he is in London and black youths carry knives..perhaps in his head it was like a custard last stand..

Yeah, big cities are the last place you'd ever see a minority. Maybe he watched all ten seasons of Friends and assumed there wouldn't be any!

[Good King Glennceslas]

Originally Posted by parmnion

Telling people what to do is an ugly look, that's why everyone in the video is in the wrong in a certain way.

You have the old bloke, whose obviously very frustrated about something and feeling picked on and perhaps scared for his life if he reads the papers and is realistic and wise enough to know that he is in London and black youths carry knives..perhaps in his head it was like a custard last stand...obviously in his head, and mine ihe is trying to get 2 rowdy passengers off the bus, hence his idiotic mouthy outburst and flailing swing.

Then the youths standing thier moral ground, because of what he said, but overstepping the mark by double teaming an old man after trying to tell him to get off the bus.

White youths carry knives too you know, it’s not just a thing black youths do.

[Parmy]

Originally Posted by Glenn.

White youths carry knives too you know, it’s not just a thing black youths do.

I am aware of that, but was the old man

[Good King Glennceslas]

Originally Posted by parmnion

I am aware of that, but was the old man

It has no bearing on anything whether he knew or not

[user104658]

I can buy that he's fearful of them but only because an absolute tonne of racism is rooted in fear that's been fostered by xenophobic rhetoric (peer and press)... But it being literal xenophobia doesn't make him not racist. That is just an aspect of what being racist is.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I can buy that he's fearful of them but only because an absolute tonne of racism is rooted in fear that's been fostered by xenophobic rhetoric (peer and press)... But it being literal xenophobia doesn't make him not racist. That is just an aspect of what being racist is.

Right... now imagine you've been the victim of that xenophobic rhetoric. Do you think that would or wouldn't impact on your responses as opposed to say...your responses?

[Josy]

Stick to discussing the topic and NOT other members thanks!

[Tom4784]

Nothing that man did was wise, racism is not wise, it's a stupid mindset for people too dumb to function properly.

People can jump through all the hoops they want to make out that the racist old **** was somehow in the right but the truth of the matter is this. He caused this situation, he abused people and escalated the situation to violence. The fault for this situation even being a situation is his alone.

[bots]

i don't remember anyone saying that what the old man did was right, but people are creating a cause and effect and trying to justify that. When it gets to court, assault on the old man will be an issue. In any conflict that involves violence, the key point is reasonable force, and actions on both sides will need to be justified.

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Nothing that man did was wise, racism is not wise, it's a stupid mindset for people too dumb to function properly.

People can jump through all the hoops they want to make out that the racist old **** was somehow in the right but the truth of the matter is this. He caused this situation, he abused people and escalated the situation to violence. The fault for this situation even being a situation is his alone.

Any trival thing can escalate into violence depending on who’s involved in the situation.

We have seen people beaten to death because the person thought the other person was looking at them in a certain way.

You feel so strongly against the death sentence but you are more than happy to excuse violence because some one was racially abused.

Being black does not give you any one more rights to use violence because they have abused for being black.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

Any trival thing can escalate into violence depending on who’s involved in the situation.



We have seen people beaten to death because the person thought the other person was looking at them in a certain way.



You feel so strongly against the death sentence but you are more than happy to excuse violence because some one was racially abused.



Being black does not give you any one more rights to use violence because they have abused for being black.

I actually agree, suffering racist (or any other) abuse doesn't excuse violent response and I think that's what we're being asked to accept; that it changes the game, that it makes it something that should be accepted, because of exceptional circumstances.

I can appreciate that it explains the violent response, and with a little prompting from Kizzy I can even appreciate that it explains why some people are quicker to want to accept/excuse/applaud the use of violence...

But when you boil it right down, no one has the "right" to retaliate with violence, it is not and will never be the right or excusable choice (even if you can empathise and offer understanding for it) and it should never be applauded or encouraged. Even if you can understand why some people might be tempted to encourage and applaud it, people shouldn't feel "shoved out" of the ability to say that that too is the wrong choice and not the right way forward.

The response that "privileged people can't tell others that applauding violence isn't the way" is nonsensical and dangerous.

[Rustic bauble]

Well that was some debate....

I know a young lad that was hit across the head by a classmate for doing very little the retaliation of a punch resulted in a broken jaw...guess who ended up with the criminal record..reacting to violence with violence is wrong unless you under severe attack.

This old man was racist and totally out of order. Despite lashing out he was no threat to anyone. The two victims who retaliated could have ended up with a manslaughter charge had this elderly man suffered a fall or stroke/heart attack as a result of being hit... We need to deal with racism but this wasn't the way to do it....you don't hit women and you don't hit the elderly unless they are coming at you with a dangerous weapon...
The bus driver would probably not have kicked the elderly bloke off his bus either because of his age...so the best thing to have done was call the police and let them reprimand the old git...

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I actually agree, suffering racist (or any other) abuse doesn't excuse violent response and I think that's what we're being asked to accept; that it changes the game, that it makes it something that should be accepted, because of exceptional circumstances.

I can appreciate that it explains the violent response, and with a little prompting from Kizzy I can even appreciate that it explains why some people are quicker to want to accept/excuse/applaud the use of violence...

But when you boil it right down, no one has the "right" to retaliate with violence, it is not and will never be the right or excusable choice (even if you can empathise and offer understanding for it) and it should never be applauded or encouraged. Even if you can understand why some people might be tempted to encourage and applaud it, people shouldn't feel "shoved out" of the ability to say that that too is the wrong choice and not the right way forward.

The response that "privileged people can't tell others that applauding violence isn't the way" is nonsensical and dangerous

And you were doing so well ..it's OK to suggest applauding violence isn't the way, however your problem was to attempt to presume why they thought that way.. and worse, what they should do in those circumstances instead.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

And you were doing so well ..it's OK to suggest applauding violence isn't the way, however your problem was to attempt to presume why they thought that way.. and worse, what they should do in those circumstances instead.

Where have I said what people should do instead of applauding violence, other than "not applauding violence"?

Unless the suggestion is that if we can appreciate and understand why someone takes an action that we think is wrong... We should just "say nothing"?

"Oh I think that's a problematic and damaging message to be putting out into the world but I can understand why they feel that way - so I'll just not counter it in any way."

What a bleak future.

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

Any trival thing can escalate into violence depending on who’s involved in the situation.

We have seen people beaten to death because the person thought the other person was looking at them in a certain way.

You feel so strongly against the death sentence but you are more than happy to excuse violence because some one was racially abused.

Being black does not give you any one more rights to use violence because they have abused for being black.

[Rustic bauble]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

Any trival thing can escalate into violence depending on who’s involved in the situation.

We have seen people beaten to death because the person thought the other person was looking at them in a certain way.

You feel so strongly against the death sentence but you are more than happy to excuse violence because some one was racially abused.

Being black does not give you any one more rights to use violence because they have abused for being black.

Well said Sheriff...

[Ammi]

...obviously there is still much to be confirmed/clarified with this ...but I think what has been a vein throughout this thread is that ..‘violence’ is never the answer’ type thing can’t always be applied ...in that violence won’t solve etc but there are situations that it could become a ‘probable’ in reaction to something.../..a chain of events and provocations, type thing...there are just too many grey areas...

...we teach our children not to use violence but that’s a whole ‘big lesson’ as well when we teach them...it’s not just a ..well, don’t do it, it’s never the answer../type black and white thing...because we also ...(...not just in regarding to violence...)..teach them consequences of words and actions when those words and actions become extreme ...’well if you take a swing at someone..(..as reported here...)...then that person might just take a swing back and you might be the one who is more hurt...because you’ve just lost control/you’ve ‘invited something’....so that’s a whole big thing as well ...the older guy felt that physically laying his hands on..(...if that’s true as has been said...)...was ‘the answer‘ when hands were pushed off the holding bar on the bus..then ‘his answer’ was racial abuse...then he changed his answer to taking a swing at...he had many answers it seems, but he didn’t consider a possible reply to his own answers....

...I personally would never applaud any violence in any way because I abhor it...(...except in a movie type situation ....when a bully or abusive person/racist person..)...’gets a slap/ a comeuppance..’../...type thing and I know that I shouldn’t but I do sometimes ‘applaud’ and say yayyyyyyy...but it’s sometimes easy to see what that can happen as well...

...it’s just sad that it would feel that the older guy didn’t have that ‘violence is never the answer’ chat with his parents when a swing was apparently taken..../...and the prejudice isn’t the answer chat...and the verbally abusing people isn’t the answer chat and etc...and etc...it’s good to get the chats done long before becoming an older person...

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Id imagine the fact there were 2 of the attackers, there were girls present and the fact that the man posed no threat were the driving forces in the violence that ensued.

[Parmy]

We live in a violent society, us unlucky enough to witness it can vouch for that. I've been smashed square in the face walking through London simply for being Scottish.

I dont hold grudges though. I laugh about it now...like these young guys these days I can imagine, laughing about the time they both smashed a 70yr old racist on a bus.

[GiRTh]

I think if there was a little bit of pushing and shoving most people would be OK with that outcome but punches were thrown and we need look at who threw the first punch. People can stand eyeball to eyeball shouting insults for ages but as soon as it gets physical then that is an invite for the other person to become physical. Its not right but its a flight or fight reaction that people arent trained to deal with.

I agree this altercation should have been handled differently but the geezer needs to keep his hands to himself. As soon as it becomes physical then all bets are off and you cant tell an untrained person that they should have done this or should have done that.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

I think if there was a little bit of pushing and shoving most people would be OK with that outcome but punches were thrown and we need look at who threw the first punch. People can stand eyeball to eyeball shouting insults for ages but as soon as it gets physical then that is an invite for the other person to become physical. Its not right but its a flight or fight reaction that people arent trained to deal with.



I agree this altercation should have been handled differently but the geezer needs to keep his hands to himself. As soon as it becomes physical then all bets are off and you cant tell an untrained person that they should have done this or should have done that.

That rests on the idea that a 70 year old (a quite flimsy looking one) and a prime-aged adult man "throwing punches" is an equal level of violence with equal potential outcome when it just isn't.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That rests on the idea that a 70 year old (a quite flimsy looking one) and a prime-aged adult man "throwing punches" is an equal level of violence with equal potential outcome when it just isn't.

Thats all very subjective and we need to be in that situation to truly know how we'd react.

Its about making that aggressive physical move and when that happens we cant predict what people will do. The fact that there were two bolsters your argument but, you put your hand on me, I put my hand on you. Its not right its how it goes.

[Parmy]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

Thats all very subjective and we need to be in that situation to truly know how we'd react.

Its about making that aggressive physical move and when that happens we cant predict what people will do. The fact that there were two bolsters your argument but, you put your hand on me, I put my hand and you. Its not right its how it goes.

That can be the wrong way to act in so so many situations though..and it's not the right way to think.