[Kizzy]

I believe the 10 commandments to be one of the first examples of instilling fear into people in order to ensure civil order, obedience and compliance.

I don't believe god wrote that text, I think moses did for the power.

[Livia]

No one's compelled to believe anything. I don't believe that if you cast a bad spooky spell on someone it comes back to you three times, so the idea that it will was designed to instil fear. Everyone believes what they believe. I will say though, that the commandments are laws, and without law there is chaos. I don't see it as instilling fear, more about bringing order... which is what they were designed to do if you know the story, whoever you believe wrote them.

[Jules2]

I have never ever read the bible right through there are points which I cannot agree with unless I take it on the alternative thought level. One is the request to leave ones family and to follow me. Now to me the family is precious and should be protected. Now if we take it on the level of leaving the body and travelling to the realms for teaching and upliftment, this I could accept.

The bible possibly has hidden meanings which have been altered for the benefit of those who would like the power and control of mankind.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Jules2

I have never ever read the bible right through there are points which I cannot agree with unless I take it on the alternative thought level. One is the request to leave ones family and to follow me. Now to me the family is prescious and should be protected. Now if we take it on the level of leaving the body and travelling to the realms for teaching and upliftment, this I could accept.

The bible possibly has hidden meanings which have been altered for the benefit of those who would like the power and control of mankind.

It's hard to disagree with something you've never read through. As far as my own religion is concerned, family is at the core of it.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Livia

No one's compelled to believe anything. I don't believe that if you cast a bad spooky spell on someone it comes back to you three times, so the idea that it will was designed to instil fear. Everyone believes what they believe. I will say though, that the commandments are laws, and without law there is chaos. I don't see it as instilling fear, more about bringing order... which is what they were designed to do if you know the story, whoever you believe wrote them.

Well written and I agree. (still writing a response to your other post Liv).

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by Livia

It's hard to disagree with something you've never read through. As far as my own religion is concerned, family is at the core of it.

Sorry Livia our posts crossed just now and I wasnt downing your words just generalising on my own feelings. I have read bits but not all. It is the old testament that I am interested in. I feel with the new that many have taken up the pen, I believe that some was written long after the birth of the Nazerene.

As I am not Jesus minded I guess the new is hard to accept whereas the old tells a story of things which once again need to be deciphered.

I have to admit that I am not capable of debating on the book at all. Others I can justify.

[Kizzy]

There is no 'bible' as it were for pagans but the law of the universe is that if you will bad things to happen to someone don't be surprised if they are inadvertently attracted to you spewing all that negative energy....
The hearth and the home are sacred to many people it's not only to those who follow a set path.
Where is it written that prior to the 10 commandments there was disorder?
Without wisdom there is chaos, laws are made to manipulate the masses and not always for the good of mankind.

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by lostalex

I agree that there is nothing wrong with parents or grandparents sharing their beliefs with their children/grandchildren as long as it's an open dialogue, and not just a lecture. Do you encourage your children/grandchildren to question things and make up their own minds though? or did you intentionally try to influence them by giving or withholding love? Most parents/grandparents reward children when they agree or withhold love and affection when they challenge or disagree. It's a very passive aggressive way of forming their beliefs, especially while they are young.

To me Alex love is unconditional and should never be withheld from a child. It is because of this my husband and I have had two of our grandchildren living with us for the last 12years. It was difficult to begin with with the eldest as she had taken the brunt of it all but we have got there. They have their own minds and believe that they can teach me old rope They are very philisophical in their approach though and they believe in trying to be the adult when it comes to falling out with their friends. They do not always succeed but then one in particular takes herself to task.

I believe that whilst we can guide them there is something instilled in a lot of children. They question me and our conversations are interactive. They are their own masters.

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

There is no 'bible' as it were for pagans but the law of the universe is that if you will bad things to happen to someone don't be surprised if they are inadvertently attracted to you spewing all that negative energy....
The hearth and the home are sacred to many people it's not only to those who follow a set path.
Where is it written that prior to the 10 commandments there was disorder?
Without wisdom there is chaos, laws are made to manipulate the masses and not always for the good of mankind.

Going with the theory of what goes around comes around? Max Freedom Longs books are very interesting, he writes about the Kahuna tribes, I believe I mentioned it before.

Now this tribe was a branch off from a mass in Egypt, they split up when there was trouble there, they went to different shores. Now they were capable of being in tune with all things but whilst their motto was to do no harm to another, if one should betray a law they were punished by a "witch doctor". This at a distance but the spell could be broken if realised and their deed corrected.

Thus the art of forgiving is important for oneself as it uplifts our innerselves, it takes us above the negativity of the deed itself. We then let life sort out the deeds karma one way or another. As we are above that energy it cannot hit us. Just me generalising...

[Kizzy]

Well no, that does seem a karmaesque view ( I invented a word)

In the same way people 'pray' people 'will' which is kind of like praying ... only you don't ask it of anyone or wish it.
Like attracts like if you put out good and positivity then you receive it, and if you don't? Then you get that back too... 'as ye sow' ' be careful what you wish for' all great old sayings that really do have a good basis in teaching prior to 'religion' as we know it to be.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Livia

According to the Torah, the Ten Commandments were given to Moses by God on Mt Sinai. They are not mentioned in the Torah before then so I'm not sure where the instances of them previously being inexistence could be. As for who drafted them... well, according to Judaism, and to Christian religions (because Jesus said he upheld the laws of Moses), it was God.

The utopia you describe if everyone followed the laws to the letter would be great if human beings, both religious and non-religious, could function without greed and envy and rage and lust... but sadly, we can't.

Of course Livia, you are correct about the Torah and the fact that God gave the Ten Commandments to Moses on Mt Sinai. But this was the Decalogue - the 10 Commandments as a whole - and there is other evidence throughout the Old testament to suggest that various (if not all) Commandments were made known by God to the Hebrews prior to Moses.

Evidence to suggest that the 1st two Commandments; "You shall have no other gods before Me” and, “You shall not make for yourself a carved image etc" were known hundreds of years before Exodus 20:3-5, can be found with the patriarch Jacob;

“Then God said to Jacob, ‘Arise, go up to Bethel and dwell there; and make an altar there to God, who appeared to you when you fled from the face of Esau your brother.’ And Jacob said to his household and to all who were with him, ‘Put away the foreign gods that are among you, purify yourselves, and change your garments. Then let us arise and go up to Bethel; and I will make an altar there to God, who answered me in the day of my distress and has been with me in the way which I have gone.’ So they gave Jacob all the foreign gods which were in their hands, and the earrings which were in their ears; and Jacob hid them under the terebinth tree which was by Shechem” (Genesis 35:1-4).

Similarly, there is evidence to suggest in Job 1:5, that Job was aware of the 3rd Commandment; “You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain” (Exodus 20:7) and Job lived before Moses at around the time of Isaac:

Job was concerned that his children might have been taking God’s name in vain, and he knew that was wrong -- “So it was, when the days of feasting had run their course, that Job would send and sanctify them [his children], and he would rise early in the morning and offer burnt offerings according to the number of them all. For Job said, ‘It may be that my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.’

More evidence that Moses - if not all the people - knew of the 10 Commandments , especially the 4th Commandment; "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." (Exodus 20:8) can be found in Exodus 16:23-28, when God gave Israel manna to eat:

“Then he [Moses] said to them, ‘This is what the LORD has said: “Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD.”’ … Then Moses said, ‘Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it [manna] in the field. Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.’

“Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. And the LORD said to Moses, ‘How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws?’ -- So even before arriving at Mount Sinai, God expected the people to obey His commandments, including the Fourth Commandment.

Some evidence to suggest that God had already made known the 6th Commandment; “You shall not murder”(Exodus 20:13) can be found in Genesis 4:6-8: where God told Cain he was to rule over and avoid sin, as anger was in Cain’s heart. “So the LORD said to Cain, ‘Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.’ Now Cain talked with Abel his brother; and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him” Cain’s anger led to the sin of murder.

Also, after the Flood, people knew that God was against murder and demanded a penalty for it. “From the hand of every man’s brother I will require the life of man. Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood shall be shed. For in the image of God He made man” (Genesis 9:5-6).

The 7th Commandment “You shall not commit adultery” (Exodus 20:14) - appears to have been known and understood by Joseph in Genesis 39:7-9:
“And it came to pass after these things that his master’s wife cast longing eyes on Joseph, and she said, ‘Lie with me.’ But he refused and said to his master’s wife, ‘Look, my master does not know what is with me in the house, and he has committed all that he has to my hand. There is no one greater in this house than I, nor has he kept back anything from me but you, because you are his wife. How then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?’

God also had warned Abimelech, king of Gerar, not to commit adultery with Sarah. “God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, ‘Indeed you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a man’s wife’” (Genesis 20:3).

The 9th and 10th Commandments; “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor” and, “You shall not covet” (Exodus 20:16-17), have been breached ever since Eve saw and coveted the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam ate of it as well (Genesis 3:6), and then both of them justified their actions (verses 10-13). The result of their disobedience to God was that they were kicked out of the Garden of Eden.

Job also knew that deceit and covetousness were sins against God: “If I have walked with falsehood, or if my foot has hastened to deceit, let me be weighed on honest scales, that God may know my integrity” (Job 31:5-6). Later, in verses 9-11, Job said, “If my heart has been enticed by a woman, or if I have lurked at my neighbor’s door. … that would be wickedness; yes, it would be iniquity deserving of judgment.”

I've had to re-visit the source of this info Livia because it's a long time since I read it and the above is abridged from it, but I think it provides some evidence (some more tenuous than others) that at least some of God's laws were known prior to Mt Sinai.

As for who drafted the 10 Commandments? Well you are correct again. According to Judaism and Christianity, God did, but I posed my question in such a way because I wanted to elicit the thoughts of non-believers on the subject.

I want to encourage civilised debate on this thread because I believe (there goes that phrase again!) that this is a fascinating subject and I further believe that I can learn from other viewpoints.

Finally, you are also correct when you write:

"The utopia you describe if everyone followed the laws to the letter would be great if human beings, both religious and non-religious, could function without greed and envy and rage and lust... but sadly, we can't."

Yet, this is just further substantiation of the points I tried to make in earlier posts; that we shouldn't blame 'God' for Man's evil.

Look no further than Traffic Lights and 'Sleeping Policemen' speed bumps when it comes to examples of Man and Law:

Humans are intelligent and learned, and as such, should be capable of driving sensibly and with reason. Yet, Man has also 'Free Will' and cannot be trusted to drive sensibly, so Man has drafted laws governing driving. Still, Man chooses to ignore these laws - even though though there are consequences for transgression. So Man implements Traffic Lights and Speed Bumps to help 'countermand' these transgressions. Despite this, there are still some people who choose to ignore speed bumps and speed over them, and others who choose to ignore Red Stop Lights and 'run' them anyway.

If the speedster should lose control of the car and it ploughs into a crowd of schoolchildren waiting to cross the road, or the 'red light runner' crashes into another car killing the occupants -- Is it the law giver's fault?

No. It is purely the fault of the one who chose to ignore the law.

It is no different with God's laws - the Commandments. The laws have been handed down to Man to ensure that by adherence to them, we not only attain personal spiritual 'heaven' when we pass on, but also that we enjoy the benefits of the 'utopian' society we will have created in this physical world whilst we are living.

it, it is hardly God's fault that we are incapable of complying.

[Kyle]

Exodus 21:1 “These are the laws you are to set before them:
Hebrew Servants
2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.
…
20 “If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

Lev 25:1 The LORD said to Moses on Mount Sinai…

Lev 25:39 ” ‘If one of your countrymen becomes poor among you and sells himself to you, do not make him work as a slave. 40 He is to be treated as a hired worker or a temporary resident among you; he is to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then he and his children are to be released, and he will go back to his own clan and to the property of his forefathers. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.

44 ” ‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

47 ” ‘If an alien or a temporary resident among you becomes rich and one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells himself to the alien living among you or to a member of the alien’s clan, 48 he retains the right of redemption after he has sold himself. One of his relatives may redeem him: 49 An uncle or a cousin or any blood relative in his clan may redeem him. Or if he prospers, he may redeem himself. 50 He and his buyer are to count the time from the year he sold himself up to the Year of Jubilee. The price for his release is to be based on the rate paid to a hired man for that number of years. 51 If many years remain, he must pay for his redemption a larger share of the price paid for him. 52 If only a few years remain until the Year of Jubilee, he is to compute that and pay for his redemption accordingly. 53 He is to be treated as a man hired from year to year; you must see to it that his owner does not rule over him ruthlessly.

54 ” ‘Even if he is not redeemed in any of these ways, he and his children are to be released in the Year of Jubilee, 55 for the Israelites belong to me as servants. They are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

The bible permits slavery with direct commandments from God. The rules are somewhat complicated, with differences between Hebrews vs. gentiles and men vs. women. The verses above are not all the rules on slavery, but they are direct quotes from God if you believe the bible to be literal.

For Hebrews, slavery was a way to pay off a debt. After 6 years of work, a Hebrew slave would be set free in the year of Jubilee – as long as the slave is male. A father has the right to sell his daughter into slavery. Exodus 21:7-11 describe rules for selling a daughter as slave, but the verses seem to interchange female slavery and marriage.

Exodus 21:20-21 permit slave owners to beat their slaves so that they are unconscious for 2-3 days!

Leviticus 25:44-45 describes how gentile slaves are to be treated, which is very different from Hebrew slaves. Gentile slaves are not to be set free in the year of Jubillee but are passed from father to son as an inheritance.

There you go guys and girls. You can have slaves if you want. God wills it.

[Kyle]

Leviticus 20:13New International Version (NIV)

13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

[Kyle]

“A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.” (1 Timothy 2:11-14)

Know your place women.

[Kyle]

Genesis 3:16 - "To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.""

Yeh, that'll teach you.

[Kyle]

Genesis 6:6-7 - "The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.""

[arista]

Originally Posted by Kyle

Genesis 6:6-7 - "The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.""

Stop
its a Fable Book



There Is No God

[arista]

Kyle
this is the Book you need

[rubymoo]

Hi kyle, i've never read the bible and have no intention to do so, imo the book should have on it's first page "This book is fictional".

I believe the bible was made to scare humanity into submission, i have visions of shepherds sitting writing short stories on their hillsides whilst they watch over their sheep and that's it, i think i'm on the same page as you as far as the bible goes

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by arista

Kyle
this is the Book you need

I Have the God delusion on audio Arista you're preaching to the wrong person here.

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by rubymoo

Hi kyle, i've never read the bible and have no intention to do so, imo the book should have on it's first page "This book is fictional".

I believe the bible was made to scare humanity into submission, i have visions of shepherds sitting writing short stories on their hillsides whilst they watch over their sheep and that's it, i think i'm on the same page as you as far as the bible goes

I've started reading the bible recently so I can really get an idea of what it's about (and also steal a few ideas for some creative writing I want to do because it is quite interesting ) and I'm currently about to go on to numbers and I'm not even gonna go into what I think of it so far because at the end of the day this is other people's faith we are talking about. Apparently Deuteronomy is where it gets particularly tasty though so I can't wait to delve into that.

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Well no, that does seem a karmaesque view ( I invented a word)

In the same way people 'pray' people 'will' which is kind of like praying ... only you don't ask it of anyone or wish it.
Like attracts like if you put out good and positivity then you receive it, and if you don't? Then you get that back too... 'as ye sow' ' be careful what you wish for' all great old sayings that really do have a good basis in teaching prior to 'religion' as we know it to be.

Morning Kizzy, I agree totally with you.

There is a thought that we are made up of about 7 (I think) levels of understanding which are enacted on within the body. Starting from the kundilini (the lower organs) upwards we have the solar plexus, (the tummy button), the heart, the throat, the forehead, the head and according to the Kuhuna tribes there is another level which is above the head but way from it. This is supposedly our higher self, the part which enables us to unite with a higher force. It is female and male in unison, soulmates.

For us to gain a level of understanding we have to unite the lower, the middle and the upper. If we dwell on each one singularly along with another being we are in tune with that person. Thus to avoid the very basic we can uplift ourselves and then we do not attract the negativity of the other person. Gets complicated eh but I do understand what the theory is. At the same time we are protecting ourselves.

The solar plexus is an interesting one as this one is where we can tune into anothers feelings, we feel the emotion within our stomach.

Basically we are our own minute "Gods" and we can be in control of our own destiny to a certain extent. We can experience or not. When we pray the theory is that we are really praying to our highest self, the one which is outside of the body and which is in touch with the greater energy of life.

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by Kyle

I Have the God delusion on audio Arista you're preaching to the wrong person here.

Is it worth reading Kyle?

[Kyle]

Jules, I'd rather forget about my embarrassing part in the events that transpired yesterday so I haven't gone back through the pages but what was it you asked me to read from your blog?

[Jules2]

Originally Posted by arista

Stop
its a Fable Book



There Is No God

For me Arista I cannot imagine a "God" making something so precious and beautiful as the earth and the positive will of mankind. A true parent would have patience and try to teach. Mind you I guess if some wont listen and they go their own way but, at the end of the day, freewill was also invented much to the distress of the negativity of the world.