[Glenn.]

Originally Posted by parmnion

I am aware of that, but was the old man

It has no bearing on anything whether he knew or not

[Josy]

Stick to discussing the topic and NOT other members thanks!

[Tom4784]

Nothing that man did was wise, racism is not wise, it's a stupid mindset for people too dumb to function properly.

People can jump through all the hoops they want to make out that the racist old **** was somehow in the right but the truth of the matter is this. He caused this situation, he abused people and escalated the situation to violence. The fault for this situation even being a situation is his alone.

[bots]

i don't remember anyone saying that what the old man did was right, but people are creating a cause and effect and trying to justify that. When it gets to court, assault on the old man will be an issue. In any conflict that involves violence, the key point is reasonable force, and actions on both sides will need to be justified.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Id imagine the fact there were 2 of the attackers, there were girls present and the fact that the man posed no threat were the driving forces in the violence that ensued.

[thesheriff443]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Nothing that man did was wise, racism is not wise, it's a stupid mindset for people too dumb to function properly.

People can jump through all the hoops they want to make out that the racist old **** was somehow in the right but the truth of the matter is this. He caused this situation, he abused people and escalated the situation to violence. The fault for this situation even being a situation is his alone.

Any trival thing can escalate into violence depending on who’s involved in the situation.

We have seen people beaten to death because the person thought the other person was looking at them in a certain way.

You feel so strongly against the death sentence but you are more than happy to excuse violence because some one was racially abused.

Being black does not give you any one more rights to use violence because they have abused for being black.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

Any trival thing can escalate into violence depending on who’s involved in the situation.



We have seen people beaten to death because the person thought the other person was looking at them in a certain way.



You feel so strongly against the death sentence but you are more than happy to excuse violence because some one was racially abused.



Being black does not give you any one more rights to use violence because they have abused for being black.

I actually agree, suffering racist (or any other) abuse doesn't excuse violent response and I think that's what we're being asked to accept; that it changes the game, that it makes it something that should be accepted, because of exceptional circumstances.

I can appreciate that it explains the violent response, and with a little prompting from Kizzy I can even appreciate that it explains why some people are quicker to want to accept/excuse/applaud the use of violence...

But when you boil it right down, no one has the "right" to retaliate with violence, it is not and will never be the right or excusable choice (even if you can empathise and offer understanding for it) and it should never be applauded or encouraged. Even if you can understand why some people might be tempted to encourage and applaud it, people shouldn't feel "shoved out" of the ability to say that that too is the wrong choice and not the right way forward.

The response that "privileged people can't tell others that applauding violence isn't the way" is nonsensical and dangerous.

[rusticgal]

Well that was some debate....

I know a young lad that was hit across the head by a classmate for doing very little the retaliation of a punch resulted in a broken jaw...guess who ended up with the criminal record..reacting to violence with violence is wrong unless you under severe attack.

This old man was racist and totally out of order. Despite lashing out he was no threat to anyone. The two victims who retaliated could have ended up with a manslaughter charge had this elderly man suffered a fall or stroke/heart attack as a result of being hit... We need to deal with racism but this wasn't the way to do it....you don't hit women and you don't hit the elderly unless they are coming at you with a dangerous weapon...
The bus driver would probably not have kicked the elderly bloke off his bus either because of his age...so the best thing to have done was call the police and let them reprimand the old git...

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

Any trival thing can escalate into violence depending on who’s involved in the situation.

We have seen people beaten to death because the person thought the other person was looking at them in a certain way.

You feel so strongly against the death sentence but you are more than happy to excuse violence because some one was racially abused.

Being black does not give you any one more rights to use violence because they have abused for being black.

[rusticgal]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

Any trival thing can escalate into violence depending on who’s involved in the situation.

We have seen people beaten to death because the person thought the other person was looking at them in a certain way.

You feel so strongly against the death sentence but you are more than happy to excuse violence because some one was racially abused.

Being black does not give you any one more rights to use violence because they have abused for being black.

Well said Sheriff...

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I actually agree, suffering racist (or any other) abuse doesn't excuse violent response and I think that's what we're being asked to accept; that it changes the game, that it makes it something that should be accepted, because of exceptional circumstances.

I can appreciate that it explains the violent response, and with a little prompting from Kizzy I can even appreciate that it explains why some people are quicker to want to accept/excuse/applaud the use of violence...

But when you boil it right down, no one has the "right" to retaliate with violence, it is not and will never be the right or excusable choice (even if you can empathise and offer understanding for it) and it should never be applauded or encouraged. Even if you can understand why some people might be tempted to encourage and applaud it, people shouldn't feel "shoved out" of the ability to say that that too is the wrong choice and not the right way forward.

The response that "privileged people can't tell others that applauding violence isn't the way" is nonsensical and dangerous

And you were doing so well ..it's OK to suggest applauding violence isn't the way, however your problem was to attempt to presume why they thought that way.. and worse, what they should do in those circumstances instead.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

And you were doing so well ..it's OK to suggest applauding violence isn't the way, however your problem was to attempt to presume why they thought that way.. and worse, what they should do in those circumstances instead.

Where have I said what people should do instead of applauding violence, other than "not applauding violence"?

Unless the suggestion is that if we can appreciate and understand why someone takes an action that we think is wrong... We should just "say nothing"?

"Oh I think that's a problematic and damaging message to be putting out into the world but I can understand why they feel that way - so I'll just not counter it in any way."

What a bleak future.

[Beso]

We live in a violent society, us unlucky enough to witness it can vouch for that. I've been smashed square in the face walking through London simply for being Scottish.

I dont hold grudges though. I laugh about it now...like these young guys these days I can imagine, laughing about the time they both smashed a 70yr old racist on a bus.

[GiRTh]

I think if there was a little bit of pushing and shoving most people would be OK with that outcome but punches were thrown and we need look at who threw the first punch. People can stand eyeball to eyeball shouting insults for ages but as soon as it gets physical then that is an invite for the other person to become physical. Its not right but its a flight or fight reaction that people arent trained to deal with.

I agree this altercation should have been handled differently but the geezer needs to keep his hands to himself. As soon as it becomes physical then all bets are off and you cant tell an untrained person that they should have done this or should have done that.

[Beso]

So if some old alky tramp walks up and swings at 2 youths, thier first reaction shouldn't be to avoid and walk away? It should be to jump at the same time and viciously attack.

[Beso]

And the video...wernt the two youths being thrown off the bus to begin with? Or have I got that wrong as well.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by parmnion

So if some old alky tramp walks up and swings at 2 youths, thier first reaction shouldn't be to avoid and walk away? It should be to jump at the same time and viciously attack.

IT should have been handled differently but when it gets physical we cant predict what people will do.

[Beso]

"You banged now Ike, you banged now. Leave it now!

Not the words of peaceful people.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

I think if there was a little bit of pushing and shoving most people would be OK with that outcome but punches were thrown and we need look at who threw the first punch. People can stand eyeball to eyeball shouting insults for ages but as soon as it gets physical then that is an invite for the other person to become physical. Its not right but its a flight or fight reaction that people arent trained to deal with.



I agree this altercation should have been handled differently but the geezer needs to keep his hands to himself. As soon as it becomes physical then all bets are off and you cant tell an untrained person that they should have done this or should have done that.

That rests on the idea that a 70 year old (a quite flimsy looking one) and a prime-aged adult man "throwing punches" is an equal level of violence with equal potential outcome when it just isn't.

[Beso]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

IT should have been handled differently but when it gets physical we cant predict what people will do.

They should have put him down with sarcasm if they had half a brain..

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

That rests on the idea that a 70 year old (a quite flimsy looking one) and a prime-aged adult man "throwing punches" is an equal level of violence with equal potential outcome when it just isn't.

Thats all very subjective and we need to be in that situation to truly know how we'd react.

Its about making that aggressive physical move and when that happens we cant predict what people will do. The fact that there were two bolsters your argument but, you put your hand on me, I put my hand on you. Its not right its how it goes.

[Beso]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

Thats all very subjective and we need to be in that situation to truly know how we'd react.

Its about making that aggressive physical move and when that happens we cant predict what people will do. The fact that there were two bolsters your argument but, you put your hand on me, I put my hand and you. Its not right its how it goes.

That can be the wrong way to act in so so many situations though..and it's not the right way to think.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by parmnion

That can be the wrong way to act in so so many situations though..and it's not the right way to think.

Then people need to keep their hands to themselves.

[Beso]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

Then people need to keep their hands to themselves.

The old bloke probably was until they got on the bus..

That's my guess anyway.due to life experience going to work everyday on the 200 now that schools are back again.

I've had a good 6 months of peace n quiet each morning..but now the noise is back, the total disrespect for others..I dont like large noisy groups.

Thankfully for me it's only 2 stops until they all pile off snorting and spitting as soon as they lift the masks outside the bus.

I feel like video it all and sending it to the school but I would be persecuted for something other due to the colour of the large group...so I wont.


But i know them all now cause for 4 years before covid I've watched them grow up daily on that bus, cause I always go upstairs to sit in front them and I reckon I could judge the future of a few of them.

I'm going to mention the spitting though to the three that do it, they are 4th years now and should know better.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

Thats all very subjective and we need to be in that situation to truly know how we'd react.

Its about making that aggressive physical move and when that happens we cant predict what people will do. The fact that there were two bolsters your argument but, you put your hand on me, I put my hand on you. Its not right its how it goes.

While it may sound like an extremely odd flex - I've been in more aggressive physical encounters with bigoted 70+ year olds than I can even count, and I would say around 5 or 6 that involved a shove, clothing being grabbed, a vague swing being taken and while I was never actually punched, the worst incident did involve tables being flipped & chairs thrown.

I will I suppose add that there was obviously no race element, and also that I was working at the time (although I don't think that part is relevant in terms of talking about people losing their temper - I certainly didn't have any sort of conflict training).

But I can say with absolute certainty that I have never and would never take a swing at an old man, because the likelihood of serious harm is just too high. Being really blunt... In those situations they seem pathetic, a bit sad, and you're mainly worried that if they don't calm down they're going to end up hurting themself.