[Vicky.]

Originally posted by BB22

I kind of agree, it is common courtesy to make some return. However, I just don't think it is appropriate to make such a blunt demand. If she had asked me for the bloody frosties I personally would have taken into account her earlier behaviour and given them to her, But if I would prefer to pay her back in some other way, perhaps in kind with tobacco, I would feel it within my rights to say so and I would feel that it was inappropriate of her to keep pressing the issue and definitely inappropriate to make a fuss about it with other people.

At the same time though, it is Lisa we are talking about...can you imagine her offering anything back...rather than just expecting to take what she wants? Maybe bea felt a nudge in the right direction was needed...either way she was way too blunt IMO. And if she felt she should be paid back (which is quite right, especially as there is normally not much tobacco in the first place) she should have pulled her aside and said something quietly...instead of infront of people. Though it was lisas reaction that turned it into an issue.

[halfacrown]

Lisa's bawling and screaming at Bea was the real scandal, some people seem to have got so used to it they think it's acceptable and give her a free pass.

The fags are lifeblood to Lisa so Bea did her a big favour but Lisa would never so likewise, she's too ill-mannered.

[Sharmie]

I think Bea likes getting her own way. She did bully Lisa into handing over the cereal. She's just a selfish little madam.
She envied Noirin and I think she was delighted when she got booted out.

She's a real stirrer Bea and I notice she goes to the Marcus and Siavash to back her up.

Marcus wants to get his leg over. God he makes my skin crawl.

Watch Bea's eyes - she is really conniving.

[BB22]

Maybe it is just my character. If I give someone something, I do not demand a repayment. The most I would do would be to drop in an occasional roundabout hint or reminder. If one demands a repayment, especially after a very short time, it simply pollutes the otherwise moral character of the original action.

Integrity first.

[BB22]

Originally posted by VickyJ

At the same time though, it is Lisa we are talking about...can you imagine her offering anything back...rather than just expecting to take what she wants? Maybe bea felt a nudge in the right direction was needed...either way she was way too blunt IMO. And if she felt she should be paid back (which is quite right, especially as there is normally not much tobacco in the first place) she should have pulled her aside and said something quietly...instead of infront of people. Though it was lisas reaction that turned it into an issue.

I agree entirely with you here. It is just that given my own character, I would be more concerned with my own integrity than with getting the right return, even from Lisa.

[Enid]

Just an excuse for Bea to start a fight and get her bitches involved yet again.

[Chuckyegg]

I dislike Lisa but Frostiegate has put me right off Bea and I ended up actually hoping that she got thrown out last night.

[ANTCOLONY]

Originally posted by Enid
Just an excuse for Bea to start a fight and get her bitches involved yet again.

EXACTLY...
ENID DO YOU HAVE YOUR OWN DOLL OR DID YOU NAME YOURSELF AFTER IT

[Vicky.]

Originally posted by BB22

I agree entirely with you here. It is just that given my own character, I would be more concerned with my own integrity than with getting the right return, even from Lisa.

Yeah...in the BB house though, tiny issues like this seem like a matter of life and death. I can kinda see where bea is coming from. And she didnt exactly say Lisa you must give me cereal because i gave you tobacco.

Depends a lot on the person.

Personally I think i would have just left it, but I have never been in a situation where i have no TV or anything, limited food and tobacco and nothing to do but talk about other people for weeks on end...

[shash]

Originally posted by BB22
Maybe it is just my character. If I give someone something, I do not demand a repayment. The most I would do would be to drop in an occasional roundabout hint or reminder. If one demands a repayment, especially after a very short time, it simply pollutes the otherwise moral character of the original action.

Integrity first.

I totally agree. Maybe sometimes it is natural to feel a bit peeved if the exchange is always one way, but it should not have been raised so bluntly by Bea, and there was no evidence to suggest Lisa was not going to repay Bea in some way. Besides, Bea likes to make out she is the caring, sharing hippy (I cannot buy into this lie of hers) and so should not worry about it. She was just wanting to raise a scene with Lisa, probably to harm her survival chances. Gifts should be freely given, and kindesses repaid, but if they are not freely given then one is right to question the motive in the first place.

I can't believe I am defending Lisa here but on this occasion she was not in the wrong, although I still did not like the way she went about standing up for herself.

[ange7]

Originally posted by ANTCOLONY

EXACTLY...
ENID DO YOU HAVE YOUR OWN DOLL OR DID YOU NAME YOURSELF AFTER IT

lol of all the points people made on this thread you pick this one

[BB22]

Originally posted by shash

I totally agree. Maybe sometimes it is natural to feel a bit peeved if the exchange is always one way, but it should have been raised so bluntly by Bea, and there was no evidence to suggest Lisa was not going to repay Bea in some way. Besides, Bea likes to make out she is the caring, sharing hippy (I cannot buy into this lie of hers) and so should not worry about it. She was just wanting to raise a scene with Lisa, probably to harm her survival chances. Gifts should be freely given, and kindesses repaid, but if they are not freely given then one is right to question the motive in the first place.

I can't believe I am defending Lisa here but on this occasion she was not in the wrong, although I still did not like the way she went about standing up for herself.

Indeed. And I am entirely in agreement with your last paragraph. It sticks in the throat to defend Lisa but I call it as I see it.

[Savetherainforest]

Lisa said to her in the garden I told you I was going to give you some of my tobacco. Bea made a big deal telling everyone....personally i think she picks on who ever they feel is the one that should go and make them look bad by getting them to argue and she thinks the public will vote them out..she knew lisa was not that iked on the outside when she came in so she thought she was on to a winner picking on her and David...Don't know what happened with the voting last night but Bea, Lisa or Freddie should have gone.

[Enid]

Originally posted by ANTCOLONY

EXACTLY...
ENID DO YOU HAVE YOUR OWN DOLL OR DID YOU NAME YOURSELF AFTER IT

Hah, no. That is Enid Coleslaw, character from Ghost World.

[halfacrown]

Originally posted by Sharmie
I think Bea likes getting her own way. She did bully Lisa into handing over the cereal. She's just a selfish little madam.
She envied Noirin and I think she was delighted when she got booted out.

She's a real stirrer Bea and I notice she goes to the Marcus and Siavash to back her up.

Marcus wants to get his leg over. God he makes my skin crawl.

Watch Bea's eyes - she is really conniving.

They all like their own way and Lisa, Rodrigo and Bea regularly go running off to tell people how dreadful someone else is, at the slightest excuse.

Freddie was attacked by some posters for telling Lisa what he thought of her to her face and in front of everybody.

[ANTCOLONY]

Originally posted by Enid

Hah, no. That is Enid Coleslaw, character from Ghost World.

AHHHHHH....

[BB22]

Originally posted by VickyJ

Yeah...in the BB house though, tiny issues like this seem like a matter of life and death. I can kinda see where bea is coming from. And she didnt exactly say Lisa you must give me cereal because i gave you tobacco.

Depends a lot on the person.

I pretty much agree on these points. Strange confined environments such as the Big Brother House can certainly affect how people understand and react to situations.

[shash]

Originally posted by BB22

Indeed. And I am entirely in agreement with your last paragraph. It sticks in the throat to defend Lisa but I call it as I see it.

LOL, yes


and oops for the typo I made which I just spotted
I did of course mean to say:

"Maybe sometimes it is natural to feel a bit peeved if the exchange is always one way, but it should not have been raised so bluntly by Bea"

[BB22]

Originally posted by ange7

yeah agree that it's poor form to expect a fav returned but in the bb house there's an understanding that it can be a house of sharing or a house of people looking out for number one. Lisa likes the "sharing" house when she is receiving but not when she has a chance to give. Bea didn't demand anything...she just said she was surprised that Lisa could be selfish after Bea gave her a whole bunch of tobacco to make her cigs. Anyway I can't see why Bea is wrong here.

I am not sure I particularly disagree with any of your factual statements here. But they do not change my moral understanding of the situation. Lisa's behaviour is kind of irrelevant, as far as I am concerned.

[Libra]

I do not think that if you have done someone a big favour...and let's be honest, in that house, sorting Lisa out with tobacco when she had none is a huge favour, it is unreasonable to ask a favour in return.

Lisa has not done anyone a single favour in that house, and yet she often expects favours.

For example, one time she agreed to go without luxury food as she couldn't do without cigarettes. Then, once she had the fags she bullied everyone into giving her the food anyway.

The last time she was out of fags, Karly came to her rescue, which was maybe fair as she and Karly were mates, whereas Bea and Lisa have never got on well.

Bea asked Lisa for a swap, honestly, I don't see a problem with that. She did not say Lisa - I gave you fags yesterday so give me those Frosties.

Lisa said no, she didn't say "Sorry Bea, but just about the only cereal I like is Frosties, so I can't swap".

Instead she sneered and said "Huh, no thankyou darling".

I think that that was a poor response and am not surprised that Bea was a bit narked.

However, as I said earlier, I think Bea's response was wrong. Instead of moaning to the others she should have just bided her time until Lisa was on the scrounge again and then said: No, I'm not sorting you out again because of what happened last time, you'll have to go without fags.

In that situation Lisa would not have had a leg to stand on.

As usual, it's not as simple as one person was right and the other one was wrong.

It would have been very out of character for Lisa to share, but it wouldn't have hurt her to do so, and her attitude was poor - as usual.

It was not a problem that Bea asked, but having been refused, she shouldn't have reacted the way that she did. She over-reacted, as usual.

To put the blame entirely on one person or the other just shows a bias.

[BB22]

Originally posted by LibraTo put the blame entirely on one person or the other just shows a bias.

Putting aside everything else you have written, as I am quite prepared to accept your right to disagree, I would take issue with this last line. I think it is factually incorrect and also kind of does a disservice to some excellent discussions in this very thread. I think the people discussing this issue have done it in a thoughtful way.

[Libra]

Originally posted by BB22

Putting aside everything else you have written, as I am quite prepared to accept your right to disagree, I would take issue with this last line. I think it is factually incorrect and also kind of does a disservice to some excellent discussions in this very thread. I think the people discussing this issue have done it in a thoughtful way.

It's not factually incorrect, it's just an opinion, as are most things written on internet forums. Perhaps I should have added "in my opinion?"

What is a fact though, is that very very rarely is one person to blame in an argument.

To come down on one side or the other depends upon which person you favour.

There have been some good points made on this thread.

In my post I did not come down on one side or the other, I pointed out where there was fault on both sides, to demonstrate that it is hard to say for certain that one person or the other was entirely to blame.

I also accept your right to disagree, and it's still just my opinion.

[Barbie]

Lisa was quite blunt about it and didnt even consider it, even after she had some of Bea's cigarettes

But Lisa agreed to give Bea some of her Cigarettes and Bea made the issue bigger than it was

So for me both done wrong but nothing major

[moimay]

I thought I heard Bea, when apologising to Lisa, acknowledge that Lisa had borrowed cigarettes from her and Lisa had promised to give her some of hers in return when she had fresh supplies.

How does this relate to Bea's feelings of shock when Lisa didn't want to swop breakfast cereal with her ?

I am not a smoker but lending someone something they need to feed their addiction doesn't make them obliged to relinquish whatever you've got if they want it.

It struck me that Bea was either suffering from a false sense of entitlement or trying to emotionally blackmail Lisa - perish the thought

[shash]

Originally posted by moimay
I thought I heard Bea, when apologising to Lisa, acknowledge that Lisa had borrowed cigarettes from her and Lisa had promised to give her some of hers in return when she had fresh supplies.

How does this relate to Bea's feelings of shock when Lisa didn't want to swop breakfast cereal with her ?

I am not a smoker but lending someone something they need to feed their addiction doesn't make them obliged to relinquish whatever you've got if they want it.

It struck me that Bea was either suffering from a false sense of entitlement or trying to emotionally blackmail Lisa - perish the thought

I think any smoker would have shared tobacco with Lisa in that situation. Bea would have risen to new levels of cruelty if she had smoked on and watched Lisa suffer.

I agree with you.