[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by Niamhxo

Who?

I don't think they know that Ireland has its own language.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

I don't think they know that Ireland has its own language.

yeah and everyone is speaking it

oh no hang on


no one is


you all speak English as that is who your boss country speak

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

yeah and everyone is speaking it

oh no hang on


no one is


you all speak English as that is who your boss country speak

We don't have a boss country you freak.

[StGeorge]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

yeah and everyone is speaking it

oh no hang on


no one is


you all speak English as that is who your boss country speak

Well, as it happens, thats where your wrong and the confusion sets in.

The Irish, or more to the point, Celts..do have their own language....like just about most nations in the world. But my point is that when these different cultures originally converged, who decided that the translation from the symbols/characters/letters to anothers had such a variance on the sound?

EG: There is no V in Irish, but when the original Irish symbol (probably from the Ogham Alphabet) was tanslated as a sound, why wasnt the English symbol for V used?

[MojoNixon]

Pronounce goes = Kwanzaa

[Big Brother Fan]

Urrrgh, I'm sick of all the Neo-Nazi freaks on here

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Big Brother Fan

Urrrgh, I'm sick of all the Neo-Nazi freaks on here

just ignore them, not worth getting into another long winded getting no where scenario again!

[Big Brother Fan]

English no doubt has a slight influence on modern Irish.

But Irish didn't decend from Anglo-Saxon or anything like that, so developed differently.

[Niamh.]

There are Irish names that have been modified alright like Maeve was originally spelled Maebh but alot of people do still use the original spelling too. Also Neve (see Neve Campbell) is a modified version of my name

[Big Brother Fan]

Yeah mh/bh doesn't sound like a 'm' just for the sake of English, it just happend to be that way

[Big Brother Fan]

Irish and Welsh are both Celtic languages so they are slightly related

[Big Brother Fan]

Because it went from Ogham to written Gaeilge ages before English was brought here

[StGeorge]

Originally Posted by Big Brother Fan

Because it went from Ogham to written Gaeilge ages before English was brought here

It's interesting you say that BBF as i think it's the metamorphosis of both the original written Irish and the original written English that has meant these anomalies have evolved.

Here is a brief history of Irish:

Written Irish is first attested in Ogham inscriptions from the fourth century AD; this stage of the language is known as Primitive Irish. These writings have been found throughout Ireland and the west coast of Great Britain. Primitive Irish transitioned into Old Irish through the 5th century. Old Irish, dating from the sixth century, used the Latin alphabet and is attested primarily in marginalia to Latin manuscripts. By the 10th century Old Irish evolved into Middle Irish, which was spoken throughout Ireland and in Scotland and the Isle of Man. It is the language of a large corpus of literature, including the famous Ulster Cycle. From the 12th century Middle Irish began to evolve into modern Irish in Ireland, into Scottish Gaelic in Scotland, and into the Manx language in the Isle of Man. Early Modern Irish, dating from the thirteenth century, was the literary language of both Ireland and Gaelic-speaking Scotland, and is attested by such writers as Geoffrey Keating. Modern Irish emerged from the literary language known as Early Modern Irish in Ireland and as Classical Gaelic in Scotland; this was used through the 18th century.

If you look up how the written English evolved, it goes through pretty much the same variations over time.

[StGeorge]

Going home now ladies....thanks for your help/understanding, and chat in awhile.

[Shasown]

Early written languages were done using runes, its from these runes most (but not all) modern letters are derived, however there will always be differences in languages because of local factors, the difference between English and Irish alphabets can be explained by the fact of both Roman (Latin) and Saxon influences on the English language as opposed to the almost pure original Irish.

Old English as in Celtic would have been very similar to Irish/Scottish - Gaelic. And Welsh - Celtic.

[Oooo_get_her]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Old English as in Celtic would have been very similar to Irish/Scottish - Gaelic. And Welsh - Celtic.

Sorry - I don't understand.

Old English is a Germanic language and not at all related to Irish or Scots Gaelic*, which belong to one branch of the Celtic language family. Welsh is, of course, a Celtic language, but it is from a different branch of the Celtic 'tree' and is quite different.

Yes - the people of what is now England were Celts before the Anglo-Saxons became dominant, but their language is never referred to as Old English. Old English is an Anglo-Saxon thing - see Beowulf.

* bar as an Indo European language, both Celtic and Germanic being descendants of Proto-Indo-European

[StGeorge]

Originally Posted by Oooo_get_her

Sorry - I don't understand.

Old English is a Germanic language and not at all related to Irish or Scots Gaelic*, which belong to one branch of the Celtic language family. Welsh is, of course, a Celtic language, but it is from a different branch of the Celtic 'tree' and is quite different.

Yes - the people of what is now England were Celts before the Anglo-Saxons became dominant, but their language is never referred to as Old English. Old English is an Anglo-Saxon thing - see Beowulf.

* bar as an Indo European language, both Celtic and Germanic being descendants of Proto-Indo-European

Oooo is correct, and if you look up the English written language, i beleive Chaucers Canterbury Tales was one of the first forms of a universal English language that was able to be read by the masses, (if you knew a bookstore ), and was known as Middle English. But even that piece of works is unrecognisable in its original form to todays language.

Oooo.
The more i read your link the better it gets, and i say to anyone who has the same inquisitiveness as me, it is the piece to read.
This gets me though:

While problems of discrepancies still continue to exist, one must recognize that great strides have already been made.
and
the spelling system of Irish will still have to undergo revision before it will be completely acceptable and satisfactory.

Personally i dont think there needs to be a change in how Irish is spelt/spoke, as long as the Irish understand and accept it, (like Jessica & Niamhxo do) and that there is an understanding and acceptance when unknowledgeable folk like me mis-pronounce someones Irish spelt name. I say this because it was the mis-pronunciation of a blokes tattoo spelling of his wifes name Siobhan that first introduced me to this anomaly. His reaction was way over the top and was if i was being rude for not knowing. Duh get a life mate i thought.

[Nemo123]

I've noticed the Irish word for work, obair, is almost identical to the Portuguese word.

But Irish has alwas been evolving and taking words from other languages when it doesn't already have one.

[StGeorge]

Originally Posted by Nemo123

I've noticed the Irish word for work, obair, is almost identical to the Portuguese word.

But Irish has alwas been evolving and taking words from other languages when it doesn't already have one.

Blimey..you can definately say that for English....its full of various foreign words that were left behind by whatever invading force and adopted by the natives.

[Shasown]

Originally Posted by StGeorge

Blimey..you can definately say that for English....its full of various foreign words that were left behind by whatever invading force and adopted by the natives.

Yes the English certainly are a bastard race

[Nemo123]

My little pet hate is how English pronounciation of Irish surnames like Moran, Keogh, Keown, and more, always seem to add an extra syllable - like More-ran, Key-ooh, Key-own. Moran is pronounced Mor'n. And Keogh like Tim Yeo, the politician, and Keown is one syllable too.

[StGeorge]

Originally Posted by Nemo123

My little pet hate is how English pronounciation of Irish surnames like Moran, Keogh, Keown, and more, always seem to add an extra syllable - like More-ran, Key-ooh, Key-own. Moran is pronounced Mor'n. And Keogh like Tim Yeo, the politician, and Keown is one syllable too.

Unfortunately some words sound the same spelt whatever way you say it.

Mor (moor) sounds like More (moor) i cant see how it can sound different.

Therefore Moran isnt More-an But Moor-an and actually comes out Moor-ran.

Unless you're saying it is in fact Mo-ran?

Mor'n sounds like Morn but is still beginning with Moor as in Moor-n.

[Nemo123]

Originally Posted by StGeorge

Unfortunately some words sound the same spelt whatever way you say it.

Mor (moor) sounds like More (moor) i cant see how it can sound different.

Therefore Moran isnt More-an But Moor-an and actually comes out Moor-ran.

Unless you're saying it is in fact Mo-ran?

Mor'n sounds like Morn but is still beginning with Moor as in Moor-n.

Kevin Moran,for example, is pronounced More 'n, there's like a half a vowel between the More and the n, so that it sounds closer to Morn. Just the hint of a vowel between the Mor and the n.

It's truncated, but the English make 2 separate syllables, with the emphasis on the second syllable, ran. More-RAN, and subjugate the first syllable.

[StGeorge]

Originally Posted by Nemo123

Kevin Moran,for example, is pronounced More 'n, there's like a half a vowel between the More and the n, so that it sounds closer to Morn. Just the hint of a vowel between the Mor and the n.

It's truncated, but the English make 2 separate syllables, with the emphasis on the second syllable, ran. More-RAN, and subjugate the first syllable.

Its not that the English choose to make these mistakes in pronouncing names wrong, but that most of us say it as we see it. This is the point of my whole thread and that there has to be an acceptance and understanding that different interpretations of the same letters is going to happen, and annoyance is just as bad as the original mis-pronunciation.

Unless a person is told that G is silent, then how are they supposed to know?

Your original point was about Moran being pronounced More-ran....and i took it that you meant the adding of the E. But if you are saying that its the ending 'N being turned into ran, then that is just a natural way the word runs and can be seen in other words. The only way for the uneducated to know is if the name was hyphernated(sp?) as in Mor-n or Mor'n.
An example is Arab
Its not A-rab or Ar-b or Ar'b....its Ar-rab or to be more precise to their pronunciation..Ar-rub.

[bansheewails]

Doherty, in Donegal is pronounced Dor-tee, but else where is doc-er-ty!