[Lex]

I couldn't agree with you more Fenn...and would like to add that I feel that the real reason that Daley was thrown out of the house is purely the BB producers obvious fears of bad pc! [ala- Dexter's public warning for the caravan jibe]....having said that, with the amount of potential complaints that would have reached the offcom desk if BB hadn't responded to the situation,..I can kinda understand their need for action in the situation!
But I have to say that I feel that they over-reacted somewhat!...if I had been the producer that was charged with resolving this worrisome episode...I would have removed the pair of them from the 'safehouse' and put them both up for eviction [along with the rightful nominees] and let the general public decide on the morals [or lack of] in this case!


Cheers.

[smudgie]

As far as I am aware, we do not know where either Hazel or Daley slept last night.
Do we actually know what time he was removed.

[Lex]

I couldn't agree with you more Fenn...and would like to add that I feel that the real reason that Daley was thrown out of the house is purely the BB producers obvious fears of bad pc! [ala- Dexter's public warning for the caravan jibe]....having said that, with the amount of potential complaints that would have reached the offcom desk if BB hadn't responded to the situation,..I can kinda understand their need for action in the situation!
But I have to say that I feel that they over-reacted somewhat!...if I had been the producer that was charged with resolving this worrisome episode...I would have removed the pair of them from the 'safehouse' and put them both up for eviction [along with the rightful nominees] and let the general public decide on the morals [or lack of] in this case!


Cheers.

[jet]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

It is right he went in my view, his actions were inappropriate and in poor taste.
I have little sympathy for Hazel though, she was provoking the situation not calming it down.

BB had no choice to remove him from the house I think but what astounds me is that the house isn't questioning Hazel more as to it, thinking Daley would be back ven with Hazel sitting with a face like thunder.
They really cannot work out that something has happened bad between the 2 of them.
They really are a dull bunch to put it politely.

Brilliant OP though on this thread and a really interesting read too.

You have said everything I wanted do, so I'll just quote you! We share a brain in more ways than one

[Fenn]

Originally Posted by Lex

I couldn't agree with you more Fenn...and would like to add that I feel that the real reason that Daley was thrown out of the house is purely the BB producers obvious fears of bad pc! [ala- Dexter's public warning for the caravan jibe]....having said that, with the amount of potential complaints that would have reached the offcom desk if BB hadn't responded to the situation,..I can kinda understand their need for action in the situation!
But I have to say that I feel that they over-reacted somewhat!...if I had been the producer that was charged with resolving this worrisome episode...I would have removed the pair of them from the 'safehouse' and put them both up for eviction [along with the rightful nominees] and let the general public decide on the morals [or lack of] in this case!


Cheers.

I think as Big Brother has faced a lot of scrutiny in the passed with its handling of removing housemates, the focus of the producers is to keep the show in the middle ground between boring dull housemates and Daily Mail scandal. Sometimes, I do think that the producers take this too far into the safe zone (Like the removing of that woman in BB8 because she said the N word) though I do think that in this circumstance it was the correct thing to do.

I can't, however, help but sometimes detach myself from the situation its self and focus more on how the producers have edited it with the ofcom rules in mind. Though the show has become very much more a game show and less reality, the social experiment element is much passed due to the fact of the wary producers tip toeing around the rules.

One thing I liked about Channel 4, particularly up to about Big Brother 5 6 and 7 were that they weren't afraid to show the true diversity and goings on of the housemates. Now, I feel like the sort of 'tabloidy' cheap plastic feel of Channel 5 is heavily veiling what Big Brother could be and how successful it could in fact become again.

[rionablue]

Originally Posted by Fenn

Sorry about this massive waffle, and if I completely bore you

First of all, I would like to say that my opinions are purely based on what I've seen on Channel 5 and through Youtube and on the live stream. Obviously Im aware that this is heavily edited and mediated.

Though I feel that Daley's removal was correct and Hazels subsequent warning was just, I do feel that Daley's actions have been made out to be much more damaging than in fact they were. At least from the episode tonight, I feel that the two were, as Daley said, 'play fighting' and the situation was not physically aggressive on either side up to the point of spanking and pulling down shorts.

If the two had not been previously flirting, I would totally accept this to be completely out of order and unacceptable, however after the flirting 'saga' we saw between the two, I do feel that this was a drunken situation that was not meant to provoke and was somewhat light hearted.

The verbal aspect of the fight was were I feel the nail was hammered into the very much manipulated coffin of Daleys, when he spoke about 'respecting elders' and 'nutting' which of obviously unacceptable for the housemates and could offend viewers. What I would say about this however is that Hazel did seem somewhat unfazed about this up until the point when Daley was called to the diary room.

As correctly highlighted prior to this event by Dexter and Gina, Hazel does seem somewhat of a manipulative snake. Though I in no way condone Daleys actions, I do think that Hazel wanted to eventually invoke a reaction from Daley and use this to her advantage. In someways she's been successful in that sense, but perhaps has brought herself a little out of depth (as is evident from BOTS when they announce Daleys removal from the house).

Finally, we saw Daley in the diary room being evicted. We hear Daley call Hazel a manipulative liar, or at least something of that sort. I feel its something quite symbolic of Daleys journey in the house. Initially we saw him as a funny character we only saw occasionally farting. That we progressively see him being sucked in by Hazel. Then we see him flip and creates a further negative view on him (adding to the BOTS interview with his girlfriend which I've kind of missed out in this). And finally we see his realisation of who in fact Hazel is. Its almost like a circle.

Though I feel Daleys actions were wrong and that violence and physical or psychological threats are completely unacceptable, I do urge the viewing public not to give Hazel the sympathy vote. I now realise that she is totally playing a game that really will probably play into her hands as a result of tonights show.

Thanks for reading this! Sorry I babbled on!

Thats a dreadful post im sorry. I know you said his actions were wrong and I couldnt agree with you more but Hazel DID NOT suck him in. It was he made the first moves, he was the first to write on her hand I like you, yeah she reciprocated the flirting and in my eyes I dont think she should have let it go so far knowing he had a gf but she is single and he was the one who was fully intent on cheating. Hazel did not deserve what happened and even people who dislike her are not disputing this. Gina is my least favourite housemate and I would have felt genuinely sorry for her if this had happened to her. They are all playing bloody games in there specially Gina and Dexter the golden couple. Hazel is not the villian in this piece. Daley is and was rightfully shown the door. His spat about Hazel being horrible was the final nail in his coffin. How dare he?

[Fenn]

Originally Posted by rionablue

Thats a dreadful post im sorry. I know you said his actions were wrong and I couldnt agree with you more but Hazel DID NOT suck him in. It was he made the first moves, he was the first to write on her hand I like you, yeah she reciprocated the flirting and in my eyes I dont think she should have let it go so far knowing he had a gf but she is single and he was the one who was fully intent on cheating. Hazel did not deserve what happened and even people who dislike her are not disputing this. Gina is my least favourite housemate and I would have felt genuinely sorry for her if this had happened to her. They are all playing bloody games in there specially Gina and Dexter the golden couple. Hazel is not the villian in this piece. Daley is and was rightfully shown the door. His spat about Hazel being horrible was the final nail in his coffin. How dare he?

In the diary room at the end of the episode, Daley did say things like 'She disrespected me' which I agree showed him in a selfish and inconsiderate way. It highlighted how he was more thinking about his departure and less about the feeling of Hazel and his actions himself.

What I feel should be realised is the fact that the prospect of leaving the show was sprung upon him, and though I think this was by all means the correct thing to do at that stage, was a lot to take in for him. In addition, some of the final things he did say on the show were quite prominent and correct and as i said at the beginning of the thread, Hazel has once again shown herself to be devious. This doesn't in anyway undermine the fact that Daleys actions were wrong.

[kefln]

There is a time for flirtation and a time for self preservation. And we witnessed both on BB tonight.

A very large man, with fighting training skills, just put his hand around a womans throat, told her to respect him and that he'd "nutt" her.

There is no second argument.

Hazel was flirting. Maybe she was hoping that it would lead to some kissing under the covers. But it didnt. It lead to a real life, serious, threatening situation.

Hazels reaction, both after he was was called to the DR, and when she was called to the DR, are easily explained by shock. Her friend had just shown a side never seen before.

Anyone saying anything different, put yourself in her position. Imagine that man, with his physical strength, with his hands around your throat. Then try to blame hazel.

[kefln]

Originally Posted by Fenn

In the diary room at the end of the episode, Daley did say things like 'She disrespected me' which I agree showed him in a selfish and inconsiderate way. It highlighted how he was more thinking about his departure and less about the feeling of Hazel and his actions himself.

What I feel should be realised is the fact that the prospect of leaving the show was sprung upon him, and though I think this was by all means the correct thing to do at that stage, was a lot to take in for him. In addition, some of the final things he did say on the show were quite prominent and correct and as i said at the beginning of the thread, Hazel has once again shown herself to be devious. This doesn't in anyway undermine the fact that Daleys actions were wrong.

A girl gets physically threatened and is considered devious for leading the guy on and not telling the world that she was held by the throat by the now ex-housemate.

Personal business? Shock? Discomfort? Not wishing to discuss it?

[Fenn]

Originally Posted by kefln

A girl gets physically threatened and is considered devious for leading the guy on and not telling the world that she was held by the throat by the now ex-housemate.

Personal business? Shock? Discomfort? Not wishing to discuss it?

What I'm saying is that her intent was to cause a reaction. Daley over reacted massively and used threatening and close to violent behaviour as a result. This was completely out of order as was totally the wrong thing to do. Hazel, however, got a reaction and felt out of her depth.

I'm of course sympathetic for Hazel in that no one should be subjected to that sort of behaviour and language, but we need to remember that it was a flirtatious and fun situation and Daley took this out of hand. They were both in the wrong, but of course Daley ultimately took it too far.

[kefln]

Originally Posted by Fenn

What I'm saying is that her intent was to cause a reaction. Daley over reacted massively and used threatening and close to violent behaviour as a result. This was completely out of order as was totally the wrong thing to do. Hazel, however, got a reaction and felt out of her depth.

I'm of course sympathetic for Hazel in that no one should be subjected to that sort of behaviour and language, but we need to remember that it was a flirtatious and fun situation and Daley took this out of hand. They were both in the wrong, but of course Daley ultimately took it too far.

Her intention was, more than likely, to get an erection out of him, not a headbutt thrown at her face - even if wasnt meant to connect.

In my opinion its wrong to call a girl devious because she doesnt know how to handle her friend, and possible lover, threatening her in such a manner. Daley is a trained boxer. A powerful man. And he put his hand around her throat.

No matter what way you spin it, hazel will be in shock. Daley was her friend. She was looking for a little hanky panky. What she got was a warning shot that no woman should experience.

Who cares if she didnt challenge him face to face. We all saw what happened when she took his blanket. Would you like to go face to face with him if you told him he was being aggressive?

Who cares if she was confused in the DR, daley is/was her friend. If she had misread the situation, his life could be over, by a few simple words from her. Shock takes time to lift.

Who cares if she doesnt tell the whole house about it instantly? She probably took a while to process what really happened.

To blame hazel in that situation is so far beyond wrong...sorry...just certain things should never happen

[CaudleHalbard]

The problem here is that people want to lay the blame at the door of one individual.

That's fine in the playground but in the adult world it's a bit more complex than that.

[kefln]

Originally Posted by CaudleHalbard

The problem here is that people want to lay the blame at the door of one individual.

That's fine in the playground but in the adult world it's a bit more complex than that.

Yes in the adult world there are consequences. Assualt, even the threat of it, by a trained fighter, is not acceptable. But assualt, even the threat of it, in bed, in the dark, should never be condoned

[LouCipher]

I was worried everyone would storm into CampHazel. So I typed the entire transcript out of what happened before the final scene that lead up to Daley blowing his lid.

It's in the Transcript thread.

[Fenn]

Giving credit to Hazel, I do feel her recollection of the events to Dan was correct and that was well done on her behalf

[Northern Monkey]

She wound up the wrong guy and bit off more than she could chew,But he should not have treated a woman like that!

[Kulafey]

completely agree. Its a disgrace that people are excusing this behaviour.

[Kulafey]

Originally Posted by cookiemonster

so is this how people get away with abuse nowadays then? label it as 'role play' what a bunch of crap. the only role he was playing was the wife beater

completely agree. Its a disgrace that people are excusing this behaviour.

[Kulafey]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I've actually just watched the main show, and I feel like it's quite a complex issue now, more than from the brief bits I'd heard before, and more than you can see from the text transcript of events.

It all started out as a bit of slightly rough foreplay, basically. I actually think they both forgot where they were... most of the banter was this, and even the butt-slap although she was mad that it was so hard. You could tell it was essentially a sex game at that point. It was really awkward to watch.

Then it gets complicated. Because Daley took it to far - he grabbed her neck and started being more aggressive in what he was saying, and she was suddenly out of her depth. But, I'm positive from the footage that from HIS perspective, it was still just "rough foreplay". Some people are into that sort of thing - and I don't think he realised that he had taken it too far beyond what she was comfortable with. *I* didn't even realise until Big Brother called him off and she immediately scarpered across the room looking shocked / scared... that look wasn't fake, it's one of the first genuine expressions I've seen Hazel make.

She was never at risk, he was never going to hurt her, he was just in full sex role play mode (ugh), had forgotten where they were, and mistakenly thought she was up for it. She was up for it at first but he didn't "take the hint" when it had gone too far. The "hint to stop" was when she said "let's be sensible and have a cuddle instead" or something along those lines. She was basically asking to stop the game and he didn't listen.


What a mess, really. I do think it was right for him to go, because he completely forgot himself "in the moment" and that can lead to things going to far like they did. He really needs to watch what happened and learn to see himself better. Hazel needs to learn her limits and how to be clear when they've been reached... because she let herself get scared to the point where she felt powerless, when she could have ended it before it escalated. I've said before and I'll say again; she's just a silly young girl.

I feel sort of bad for both of them. He's been made out to be a monster when really he wouldn't have actually hurt her and wasn't threatening her... he thought he was being "sexy" and that she was enjoying it too. It was a "misunderstanding"... but a potentially dangerous one.

Its "misunderstandings" like that that lead to rape....
I think Hazel was lucky the cameras were on and BB intervened.

[Kulafey]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Hmmm... Dan will think there's more to it but it's Hazel so he'll let it slide. Anyone else and he would want to get to the truth but he constantly gives her a free pass.

Gina and Dexter will probably suspect there's more to it because they saw how their flirting escalated on screen when they were in the safe house, so might have a good idea of the "lead up" to the incident. Still... I don't think anyone will want to be seen as condoning something that lead to him being kicked out. Even if they have their suspicions, they'll know that Big Bro must have their reasons for removing only Daley.

The "lead up"?
Since when has harmless flirting been a lead up to violent and abusive behaviour?
Glad I don't live in your world!

[Kulafey]

Originally Posted by kefln

There is a time for flirtation and a time for self preservation. And we witnessed both on BB tonight.

A very large man, with fighting training skills, just put his hand around a womans throat, told her to respect him and that he'd "nutt" her.

There is no second argument.

Hazel was flirting. Maybe she was hoping that it would lead to some kissing under the covers. But it didnt. It lead to a real life, serious, threatening situation.

Hazels reaction, both after he was was called to the DR, and when she was called to the DR, are easily explained by shock. Her friend had just shown a side never seen before.

Anyone saying anything different, put yourself in her position. Imagine that man, with his physical strength, with his hands around your throat. Then try to blame hazel.

Absolutely. It seems ridiculous to me that people are excusing what Daley did. because Hazel "led him on" That's what rapists say in their defense. That's what all violent abusers of women say and that's how these people get away with it - because people make moral judgments on women and accept that yes, maybe she was "asking for it". Its a disgrace.

[Kulafey]

Originally Posted by kefln

Her intention was, more than likely, to get an erection out of him, not a headbutt thrown at her face - even if wasnt meant to connect.

In my opinion its wrong to call a girl devious because she doesnt know how to handle her friend, and possible lover, threatening her in such a manner. Daley is a trained boxer. A powerful man. And he put his hand around her throat.

No matter what way you spin it, hazel will be in shock. Daley was her friend. She was looking for a little hanky panky. What she got was a warning shot that no woman should experience.

Who cares if she didnt challenge him face to face. We all saw what happened when she took his blanket. Would you like to go face to face with him if you told him he was being aggressive?

Who cares if she was confused in the DR, daley is/was her friend. If she had misread the situation, his life could be over, by a few simple words from her. Shock takes time to lift.

Who cares if she doesnt tell the whole house about it instantly? She probably took a while to process what really happened.

To blame hazel in that situation is so far beyond wrong...sorry...just certain things should never happen

I couldn't agree more with your posts. Saying hazel is to blame for this is like saying a rape victim has to take responsibility for being raped if she flirted, or dressed provocatively.