[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Munchkins

But a lot of really cruel people actually do deep research to out people who are trans and try to ruin their careers, and surely there'd be some way of them being able to work out things and a birth certificate is proof
Atleast it isnt a worry for trans people in this country, i just think they should keep the old one as a record but produce a new birth certificate for their preferred gender

But thats essentially the same as dong away with the old record? As the new one would be used instead.

[Munchkins]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

But thats essentially the same as dong away with the old record? As the new one would be used instead.

Yes but in cases, where like Jessica said someone de-transitions, then there is still the old record

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Munchkins

With some young transitioners though they do end up living as their preferred gender for way long than they ever were the old :L so it is sad that they will still be held accountable for what they were the early yearsof their life
For instance the girl in my avatar transitioned and began treatment aged 12

Well if there was no transphobia then they wouldn't feel any need to try to hide their birth gender...

The problem is really the transphobia. Hiding their birth gender isn't solving the problem of transphobia in general. Actually hiding their birth gender is actually being cowardly imo. Trans people shouldn't hide the fact that they are trans, it just makes it more mysterious and taboo and contributes to the stereotype that they are trying to "trick" people.

[Munchkins]

Originally Posted by lostalex

Well if there was no transphobia then they wouldn't feel any need to try to hide their birth gender...

The problem is really the transphobia. Hiding their birth gender isn't solving the problem of transphobia in general. Actually hiding their birth gender is actually being cowardly imo. Trans people shouldn't hide the fact that they are trans, it just makes it more mysterious and taboo.

Why shouldnt they hide the trans label? just because you are trans doesnt mean you have to be out and proud flounting the label, some want to live in stealth and live just as a normal woman would.. they dont want to be defined as trans even if they are they want to be defined as a woman, who was born with a birth defect as some say aha
Gay people dont need to go around telling people they are gay so why do trans people need to make it a fact they are??

[lostalex]

Originally Posted by Munchkins

Why shouldnt they hide the trans label? just because you are trans doesnt mean you have to be out and proud flounting the label, some want to live in stealth and live just as a normal woman would.. they dont want to be defined as trans even if they are they want to be defined as a woman, who was born with a birth defect as some say aha
Gay people dont need to go around telling people they are gay so why do trans people need to make it a fact they are??

because it's basically erasing your history and the next generation gets no benefit. it's like kicking down the ladder after you climb up. If there's nothing to be ashamed about being trans, then why would you hide it? It's part of your story, a very important part, and denying it, burying your head in the sand, and acting like it didn't happen is very selfish and delusional.

I say stand up and be counted.

I agree that no one should be forced though.

[Munchkins]

Originally Posted by lostalex

because it's basically erasing your history and the next generation gets no benefit. it's like kicking down the ladder after you climb up.

The amount of stealth people is so low anyway, so there is still trans role models people can look up to such as Laverne Cox & Carmen Carrera.. however i do see some peoples points that usually the ones who hide in stealth and dont tell anyone are the ones who you would never be able to tell and just look like normal women, so in a way, its hiding the best examples of those who can pass, and therefore the media can only show those who dont pass at all and still look like men, so i do still see that viewpoint, but they shouldnt be forced into the trans out and open category just because they are

[Vicky.]

Nah I think it should stay the same regardless.

I dont agree that if I should decide tomorrow that I want to become a bloke I could change my birth certificate to say I was born a boy.

I do know trangenderism is usually much more than that, but when I think transgender, I think of that bradley manning bloke, who just decided he was female to get in a different jail.

Also what do we do about those who change genders, then change back? Keep doing new birth certificates?

[Munchkins]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Nah I think it should stay the same regardless.

I dont agree that if I should decide tomorrow that I want to become a bloke I could change my birth certificate to say I was born a boy.

I do know trangenderism is usually much more than that, but when I think transgender, I think of that bradley manning bloke, who just decided he was female to get in a different jail.

Also what do we do about those who change genders, then change back? Keep doing new birth certificates?

They dont suddenly just decide tomorrow though do they? how would you feel if you woke up tomorrow and were a man lol.
And he didnt just decide he was female lol its not as simple as that they do have to undergo severe psychological testing before they are even allowed to see gender therapists, they have to go through the mental health service first, then psychologists with gender therapists before even being allowed any access to treatments
and thats why i said, that the original one should be kept in the case of a de transition

[AnnieK]

I have a transgender employee - for ID he brought his passport and name change document but his passport was still in his female gender which was not a problem for me as an employer but I guess it would be pretty awkward at airport check ins and passport controls.
I do believe the birth certificate should remain but an addendum added to it,

[Vicky.]

Also heres something I just thought of when rinsing my hair dye off..

If we were to change birth certificates for trans people, is it only post-ops? Many pre-ops would want the same treatment and saying no to them would be basically saying 'you cant afford the op, or are on a waiting list, so you don't have the same privilege as others trapped in the wrong body'

And if we allowed anyone who claimed to be in the wrong body to do it, it wold really be open to abuse.

It just doesnt make sense to do it, and I would bet the majority of transgendered people wouldnt even think twice about this tbh.

[Munchkins]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Also heres something I just thought of when rinsing my hair dye off..

If we were to change birth certificates for trans people, is it only post-ops? Many pre-ops would want the same treatment and saying no to them would be basically saying 'you cant afford the op, or are on a waiting list, so you don't have the same privilege as others trapped in the wrong body'

And if we allowed anyone who claimed to be in the wrong body to do it, it wold really be open to abuse.

It just doesnt make sense to do it, and I would bet the majority of transgendered people wouldnt even think twice about this tbh.

Tbh though, obviously with birth certificates it is going to come down to genitalia as that is what people define as Male or female, so theres no way working around that for Birth certificates, you could argue for other documentation though that Pre-op should be considered too but that opens far too many loopholes
From the ones i speak to regularly online, things like this are a big issue, but obviously thats not speaking on account for everyone

[Vicky.]

I dont see why it would be an issue though, they know that physically they were born that gender. And medical records must go on that.

Its kinda like saying 'this baby was born with a heart defect, but it has been sorted now and the child in question would like to forget it, so lets remove it from our records'

Before anyone starts too, Im not saying trangenderism is a defect or anything, just trying to put my view across

[Munchkins]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I dont see why it would be an issue though, they know that physically they were born that gender. And medical records must go on that.

Its kinda like saying 'this baby was born with a heart defect, but it has been sorted now and the child in question would like to forget it, so lets remove it from our records'

Before anyone starts too, Im not saying trangenderism is a defect or anything, just trying to put my view across

Because its a mental trauma to them that they born that physical gender, so any documentation showing that is obviously to some going to bring that back, and its still a part showing, you will never truly be that gender as this shows you were born this way
It'd be interesting to know what article Jessica is referring to as im pretty sure this is not an issue in the UK and the certicates are changed, plus the whole thing about the records, transgenderism really isnt that big, the amount of records changed, arent going to be that large of a number, so its not loads of history being changed

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Munchkins

Because its a mental trauma to them that they born that physical gender, so any documentation showing that is obviously to some going to bring that back, and its still a part showing, you will never truly be that gender as this shows you were born this way
It'd be interesting to know what article Jessica is referring to as im pretty sure this is not an issue in the UK and the certicates are changed, plus the whole thing about the records, transgenderism really isnt that big, the amount of records changed, arent going to be that large of a number, so its not loads of history being changed

But they WERE born physically that gender.

Yeah it might be traumatising to think of and stuff, but medical records should be correct regardless of how upsetting it is for people.

[Munchkins]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

But they WERE born physically that gender.

Yeah it might be traumatising to think of and stuff, but medical records should be correct regardless of how upsetting it is for people.

How would you define it for intersex people, i know this isnt the same topic, but those who are not born an actual gender and their parents then choose for them, and then later some of them choose to change gender

Well then whats the problem with creating a new document, but keeping the old one? you brought up the problem of people switching back and forth, but that is such a small number, its not like theres going to be epidemic levels of new birth certificates being made

I'm probably going to stop debating on here, im just repeating myself, and its a topic, i always get so passionate about and wont end debating

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Munchkins

How would you define it for intersex people, i know this isnt the same topic, but those who are not born an actual gender and their parents then choose for them, and then later some of them choose to change gender

Well then whats the problem with creating a new document, but keeping the old one? you brought up the problem of people switching back and forth, but that is such a small number, its not like theres going to be epidemic levels of new birth certificates being made

I'm probably going to stop debating on here, im just repeating myself, and its a topic, i always get so passionate about and wont end debating

Intersex as in hermaphrodites? Thats a interesting question and I really dont know..I didnt even know the parents got to chose the sex to put on the birth certificate tbh, would have thought there was a way of saying 'both' in a nicer way

The problem with creating a new one but keeping the old one is that only the new one would be used, so then the old one is pointless? Adapting the original one to say 'born male, now female, would be accurate, but I dont see how that would help, given that the apparent reaosn for changing it is so they dont remember the traumatic experience of changing :S

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by Munchkins

It'd be interesting to know what article Jessica is referring to as im pretty sure this is not an issue in the UK and the certicates are changed

I was referencing the freshly reopened case of this woman; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Foy

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jessica‪

I was referencing the freshly reopened case of this woman; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Foy

'According to Foy, she had been born a "congenitally disabled woman" and the error recording her sex on her birth certificate was not only embarrassing to her but also could interfere with her constitutional rights, as she would be unable to ever choose to marry a man'

Surely thats not right? I thought after the surgery and stuff, in all legal standpoints an such you were viewed as the gender you are NOW physically?

[Munchkins]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

'According to Foy, she had been born a "congenitally disabled woman" and the error recording her sex on her birth certificate was not only embarrassing to her but also could interfere with her constitutional rights, as she would be unable to ever choose to marry a man'

Surely thats not right? I thought after the surgery and stuff, in all legal standpoints an such you were viewed as the gender you are NOW physically?

Me too?? well thats how it is in this country as i know transgender individuals can marry.. for instance a mtf could marry a genetic male in a hetero sexual marriage in this country
im confused

[Kizzy]

No, not rewrite the original document maybe have an amended one, but it be noted on it the change?

[Marsh.]

I don't think a birth certificate should be altered. That's you at the time of birth.

Anything you change afterwards shouldn't affect it.

[AnnieK]

I think the UK issue amended certificates:
Gender Recognition Act 2004

The Gender Recognition Act (GRA) gives legal recognition to transsexual people in their acquired gender.

If an application to the Gender Recognition Panel is successful, the transsexual person's gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender and they will receive a full gender recognition certificate (GRC). The GRC allows for the creation of a modified birth certificate reflecting the holder's new gender.

In specified circumstances the GRA prohibits disclosure of the fact that someone has applied for a GRC or disclosure of someone's gender prior to the acquisition of the GRC. Such disclosure constitutes a criminal offence liable to a fine.

The privacy provisions apply in most circumstances where the information is received by someone acting in an official capacity. The exceptions are very narrowly drawn, so it should generally be assumed that if you are a employer, manager or colleague; or if you are working in any capacity for an official body or service provider, the law will apply.

Unlawful disclosure applies not only to direct word of mouth communication but also to uncontrolled access to paper or computer files. A transsexual person may consent to you disclosing the information if they decide that it is in their interests to do so. However, such consent must be explicit. It may not be assumed.

As a general rule it is best to agree what to do with information when an employee or service user informs you that they have applied for or obtained a Gender Recognition Certificate. This may often necessitate physically destroying records that reveal inappropriate information, or sealing them for use in specified exceptional cases.

source: http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/a...-law-says/#GRA

[Pete.]

They can keep a 'birth certificate' - an original certificate. They can always get a new certificate but the original can be there for documentation - I don't see the probelm

[Firewire]

No, it's a birth certificate. It should reflect the information of your birth. You should, however, be able to alter your name via deed poll and go by a different name on your passport etc. but I believe that the birth certificate shouldn't be altered.

[Z]

I'm perhaps missing the point but is there some legal benefit or reason why people want their birth certificates changed to reflect their new gender? Because if it's just for person preferences then I'm firmly in the no camp. It'd be like getting a nose job and then editing every single photo of you prior to getting your nose fixed photoshopped - ultimately, what's the point? Your birth certificate is a piece of paper. It would be a lie to say that you were born female/male if you weren't. It's just a statement of facts, essentially.