[Livia]

I don't get paid for my religious festivals because I live in a Christian country. If this isn't a Christian country, why should people expect to be paid for religious holidays?

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Originally Posted by Livia

I don't get paid for my religious festivals because I live in a Christian country. If this isn't a Christian country, why should people expect to be paid for religious holidays?

is this about the Holiday Armadillo

again?

[Livia]

LOL yes. It's a great source of sorrow to Jews when we don't get paid for something.

[Kizzy]

She's got 7 woes but christianity ain't one

[Livia]

Not funny.

[Kizzy]

Not into theological humour? come on I'm not a Christian and I find it funny

[Livia]

Not when I have to wait so long for it to be Googled, no.

[Kizzy]

Us heathens like to take our time...

[Livia]

Yeah, enough now.

[Kizzy]

Enough? I'm just getting started, I could talk religion all night I'm very spiritual.

[Livia]

Good for you.

[Kizzy]

SIR – We respect the Prime Minister’s right to his religious beliefs and the fact that they necessarily affect his own life as a politician. However, we object to his characterisation of Britain as a “Christian country” and the negative consequences for politics and society that this engenders.
Apart from in the narrow constitutional sense that we continue to have an established Church, Britain is not a “Christian country”. Repeated surveys, polls and studies show that most of us as individuals are not Christian in our beliefs or our religious identities.
At a social level, Britain has been shaped for the better by many pre-Christian, non-Christian, and post-Christian forces. We are a plural society with citizens with a range of perspectives, and we are a largely non-religious society.
Constantly to claim otherwise fosters alienation and division in our society. Although it is right to recognise the contribution made by many Christians to social action, it is wrong to try to exceptionalise their contribution when it is equalled by British people of different beliefs. This needlessly fuels enervating sectarian debates that are by and large absent from the lives of most British people, who do not want religions or religious identities to be actively prioritised by their elected government.
Professor Jim Al-Khalil
Philip Pullman
Tim Minchin
Dr Simon Singh
Ken Follett
Dr Adam Rutherford
Sir John Sulston
Sir David Smith
Professor Jonathan Glover
Professor Anthony Grayling
Nick Ross
Virginia Ironside
Professor Steven Rose
Natalie Haynes
Peter Tatchell
Professor Raymond Tallis
Dr Iolo ap Gwynn
Stephen Volk
Professor Steve Jones
Sir Terry Pratchett
Dr Evan Harris
Dr Richard Bartle
Sian Berry
C J De Mooi
Professor John A Lee
Professor Richard Norman
Zoe Margolis
Joan Smith
Michael Gore
Derek McAuley
Lorraine Barratt
Dr Susan Blackmore
Dr Harry Stopes-Roe
Sir Geoffrey Bindman QC
Adele Anderson
Dr Helena Cronin
Professor Alice Roberts
Professor Chris French
Sir Tom Blundell
Maureen Duffy
Baroness Whitaker
Lord Avebury
Richard Herring
Martin Rowson
Tony Hawks
Peter Cave
Diane Munday
Professor Norman MacLean
Professor Sir Harold Kroto
Sir Richard Dalton
Sir David Blatherwick
Michael Rubenstein
Polly Toynbee
Lord O'Neill
Dr Simon Singh
Dan Snow

[joeysteele]

Oh dear, why do politicians do this,get involved in religious matters,odd how they hate it when the Church comments as to politics,especially if the Church disagrees with the politicians.

We are I would say a Christian leaning Nation,so in that I would agree with the PM and the article attributed to him.

However, for me, I judge people on their actions not their words,I don't think it matters who or what people are, what they believe or don't believe,it is what 'they do' especially in relation to others and even more so when they have power too.
It is there, I feel, it would have been better for this particular PM to keep quiet and not use his position to spout off to others.

He leads,in my opinion, one of the most unchristian and in some cases inhuman Govts. this Nation has likely ever had since the start of the 20th century and certainly post war.
He has in his Cabinet, some people who are the most awful people likely to ever be in Govt. positions with power over others.

So to now go on trying to, in my view, win over some christian votes,is rather distasteful at best for me as to David Cameron and the issues he has raised in his article in the Church times.
Whatever he says as to christian values and this being a christian country, one thing is sure, his Govt. under his leadership is far from anything christian and sadly for me, his actions as to all things christian after being tentatively trusted with power,say far more about him than any cheap words from him done for publicity.

No one, christian,any other religion or even humanist and atheist for that matter need any pathetic lectures from this man on the subject whatsoever.
He is entitled to his views,however it is time he stopped abusing the power he has in my opinion and sorted his own backyard as to his Govt. out first.

[Kizzy]

Yes dave practice what you preach!

[Nedusa]

I think it is right and proper for David Cameron to speak up and reaffirm our Christian values and heritage especially as this was part of his Easter message.

Although church attendances are falling and only a small proportion of the population actually go to these "organised" religions churches, a high proportion of the population of this Country do consider themselves Christian.

It is a useful reminder from the Prime Minister that this is the case and will continue to be the case for the forseeable future.

The letter written to the Telegraph by Britains leading 50 atheists misses the point, ie this Country is a Christian Country, Christianity is the official religion of the UK. We even have Bishops sitting in the House of Lords helping to shape our laws so our faith is not diluted or lost.

In fact it's about time our Politicians re-affirmed our Christian values especially at Easter the most important of all our Christian celebrations.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

Atheists really do spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about religion. If you're not religious, if you have no interest in it, let it go... and allow people to make up their own minds.

A) I wouldn't take anyone who claims to be atheistic seriously if they hadn't spent time thinking about it. On the flipside, in my experience, most (note: not ALL) "religious people" have not spent much time openly thinking about religion (as a whole concept, outside the bounds of their own branch).

B) Not being religious =/= "having no interest" in religion. Anyone who has any interest in sociology, psychology, politics or any other philosophical thought should have "an interest" in religion, its origins and its consequences.

C) "Letting it go", refusing to talk about it, and just letting people get on with making up their own minds more or less ensures that those people will not be able to make up their own minds, because people who ARE religious (their families, friends, other influences) will not stop talking about it / let it go / stop trying to "spread the word". Until they do so, without atheistic persuasion as a counter-balance, people can never truly "make up their own mind", can they?

What you're saying would be fine if religion was purely personal and benign. But it blatantly is not.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

I think it is right and proper for David Cameron to speak up and reaffirm our Christian values and heritage especially as this was part of his Easter message.

Although church attendances are falling and only a small proportion of the population actually go to these "organised" religions churches, a high proportion of the population of this Country do consider themselves Christian.

It is a useful reminder from the Prime Minister that this is the case and will continue to be the case for the foreseeable future.

The letter written to the Telegraph by Britains leading 50 atheists misses the point, ie this Country is a Christian Country, Christianity is the official religion of the UK. We even have Bishops sitting in the House of Lords helping to shape our laws so our faith is not diluted or lost.

In fact it's about time our Politicians re-affirmed our Christian values especially at Easter the most important of all our Christian celebrations.

I haven't seen that one, It's not the law to be a Christian... yet.
Once again it's the pathetic box ticking morons in middle England who are playing 'morality bingo' and paying lip service (going to church at least 4 times in your life , including getting married) to the Christian faith.
As joey said earlier when the church comment on the very real and unchristian actions of this government they are slapped down by one of the pitbulls as they continue to savage many weak and needy people.

[In the Drunk Tank]

You can't separate a country's religious heritage from its identity, however much you try. We use the Christian calendar, our major holidays are fundamentally religious ones, we have a national church which our monarch is the head of, Churches hugely outnumber any other religious buildings, most people still consider themselves Christian, and Christianity's influence is still evident in all major customs, traditions, laws etc. etc.

To say we are not a Christian country is to try and whitewash our history.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

A) I wouldn't take anyone who claims to be atheistic seriously if they hadn't spent time thinking about it. On the flipside, in my experience, most (note: not ALL) "religious people" have not spent much time openly thinking about religion (as a whole concept, outside the bounds of their own branch).

B) Not being religious =/= "having no interest" in religion. Anyone who has any interest in sociology, psychology, politics or any other philosophical thought should have "an interest" in religion, its origins and its consequences.

C) "Letting it go", refusing to talk about it, and just letting people get on with making up their own minds more or less ensures that those people will not be able to make up their own minds, because people who ARE religious (their families, friends, other influences) will not stop talking about it / let it go / stop trying to "spread the word". Until they do so, without atheistic persuasion as a counter-balance, people can never truly "make up their own mind", can they?

What you're saying would be fine if religion was purely personal and benign. But it blatantly is not.

Yeah, you lost me when you said straight out that atheists have thought about it and most religious people haven't, and when you added that religous people will not shut up about it, despite the fact that almost ALL religous threads on this forum are started by atheists.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by MTVN

You can't separate a country's religious heritage from its identity, however much you try. We use the Christian calendar, our major holidays are fundamentally religious ones, we have a national church which our monarch is the head of, Churches hugely outnumber any other religious buildings, most people still consider themselves Christian, and Christianity's influence is still evident in all major customs, traditions, laws etc. etc.

To say we are not a Christian country is to try and whitewash our history.

Great post MTVN. One of your best.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by MTVN

You can't separate a country's religious heritage from its identity, however much you try. We use the Christian calendar, our major holidays are fundamentally religious ones, we have a national church which our monarch is the head of, Churches hugely outnumber any other religious buildings, most people still consider themselves Christian, and Christianity's influence is still evident in all major customs, traditions, laws etc. etc.

To say we are not a Christian country is to try and whitewash our history.

You can't deny the fact that there are more non Christians than Christians as found in the study, that is not to say (swiftly) that everyone else is non-religious.
Well it depends how far back in history you want to go, Christianity was adopted we didn't give birth to it... And in the main it was forced upon us wasn't it?
If real and honest Christian values were adopted it would indeed be a wonderous thing, how likely is it that dave and his writhing serpents will lead by example?... not very.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

Yeah, you lost me when you said straight out that atheists have thought about it and most religious people haven't, and when you added that religous people will not shut up about it, despite the fact that almost ALL religous threads on this forum are started by atheists.

I didn't say that atheists have thought about it, I said I wouldn't respect their opinion if they hadn't. You implied that they shouldn't be thinking about it. I was merely disagreeing.

I wasn't saying that religious people bang on about it - I was pointing out that atheists just shutting up and letting people make up their own minds, without also stating that religious people should do the same (which they won't / can't, religion would die without the word being spread, this is fundamental to pretty much every faith?) is problematic and unfair, and would remove the counterbalance that ALLOWS people to "make up their own minds".

However, I suspect that you knew all of this and you're deliberately misinterpreting me to fit a pre-conceived pro-religious agenda... which is disappointing to be honest. I'm not necessarily atheistic or even anti-religious in theory. I'm just not blinkered.

[Kizzy]

It's all pathetic subterfuge to win votes anyway, he couldn't give a monkeys if anyone worships Christ or not.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I didn't say that atheists have thought about it, I said I wouldn't respect their opinion if they hadn't. You implied that they shouldn't be thinking about it. I was merely disagreeing.

I wasn't saying that religious people bang on about it - I was pointing out that atheists just shutting up and letting people make up their own minds, without also stating that religious people should do the same (which they won't / can't, religion would die without the word being spread, this is fundamental to pretty much every faith?) is problematic and unfair, and would remove the counterbalance that ALLOWS people to "make up their own minds".

However, I suspect that you knew all of this and you're deliberately misinterpreting me to fit a pre-conceived pro-religious agenda... which is disappointing to be honest. I'm not necessarily atheistic or even anti-religious in theory. I'm just not blinkered.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to work out some intricate plot against you. You believe or you don't, I don't care, so long as you don't expect me to follow. This is about ours being a Christian country. Which it is. Being a Christian country has made us the nation we are now. You don't have to like it, but it's true. I am not a Christian, the fact this is a Christian country doesn't offend me. But it does seem to offend atheists who, without doubt, are noisier than any religion.

I am not pro-religious. I am pro-the right to personal choice and religious freedom, whatever religion you follow, or whether you follow none. But thanks for your summing up of my whole character based on a few posts I made to someone else and for implying I'm blinkered! That's funny...

You're quite wrong about spreading the word. My religion doesn't recruit.

[Kizzy]

'This is about ours being a Christian country. Which it is' statistically it isn't.
Strangely your pro choice view is one that is shared with the signatories of the open letter, why then you appear so affronted by the content I don't know.