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MTVN · 10-12-2014, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrooge

it did result in the US getting Bin Laden..

The most important information obtained in the hunt for Bin Laden did not come from torture

MTVN · 10-12-2014, 09:40 AM

It's also important to note that not everyone who was treated this way was a tried and tested, foaming at the mouth jihadist intent on beheading innocents.

"26 of the 119 were wrongfully held and later judged nothing to do with terrorism"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...te-report.html

Among the people who were wrongly held was Nazar Ali, "an 'intellectually challenged' individual whose taped crying was used as leverage against his family member".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...s-prisons.html

Woop yeah, get dem terrorists!!!!!!

kirklancaster · 10-12-2014, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Geordie Jesus

It's also important to note that not everyone who was treated this way was a tried and tested, foaming at the mouth jihadist intent on beheading innocents.

"26 of the 119 were wrongfully held and later judged nothing to do with terrorism"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...te-report.html

Among the people who were wrongly held was Nazar Ali, "an 'intellectually challenged' individual whose taped crying was used as leverage against his family member".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...s-prisons.html

Woop yeah, get dem terrorists!!!!!!

I understand any critic of the interrogation techniques in question holding up the fact that out of 119 'suspected' terrorists 26 were 'deemed' to be innocent, but before they start wearing such a fact as some kind of 'Badge of Honour', perhaps we should recognise the very telling fact that this means that of the 119 'suspected' terrorists interrogated 93 were actual terrorists.

So, yes, 26 'innocent' suspects are an example of unfortunate and regrettable 'collateral damage', but these 'innocents' still live and breathe to tell their tales -- unlike all the poor innocent victims of the Islamic Fundamentalist butchers who are the raison d'etre for these 'interrogations' in the first place.

26 'innocent victims will recover, be compensated, live on, and who knows how many thousands or tens of thousands of innocent victims will also continue to 'live on', because of vital information 'obtained' from these 93 actual terrorists about their planned future atrocities?

The end justifies the means.

Kizzy · 10-12-2014, 10:32 AM

So it's ok to torture innocent people as the ratio to actual terrorists is not as great?...

1 in every 5 roughly is an acceptable figure and collateral damage, no it's not justifiable.

kirklancaster · 10-12-2014, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArchAngel

So it's ok to torture innocent people as the ratio to actual terrorists is not as great?...

1 in every 5 roughly is an acceptable figure and collateral damage, no it's not justifiable.

I never said it was "OK" - I said that it was "regrettable" but in the context of 'extracting' vital information which could save tens of thousands of innocent lives by preventing planned terrorist atrocities, and millions of lives by helping us win this war, then it was unavoidable and necessary 'Collateral Damage' .

So in short - yes, I deem it justifiable. No one was butchered - unlike the many innocent victims of the Jihadist scum - and there was a reason for what transpired -- unlike the senseless bombings and beheadings by the Islamic Fundamentalist terrorists who have no reason.

Crimson Dynamo · 10-12-2014, 10:37 AM

Its america

is anyone surprised?

Tom4784 · 10-12-2014, 11:22 AM

How can we claim to be better than the terrorists when we preach human rights on the surface and then abuse them to get results? Using underhanded tactics to get results is not justifiable and trying to justify heinous acts by saying that it's ultimately for the greater good is a tactic often employed by some of the worst dictators in history.

We have to be better than the terrorists, sinking to their level degrades us and makes us no different to them.

Crimson Dynamo · 10-12-2014, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dezzy

How can we claim to be better than the terrorists when we preach human rights on the surface and then abuse them to get results? Using underhanded tactics to get results is not justifiable and trying to justify heinous acts by saying that it's ultimately for the greater good is a tactic often employed by some of the worst dictators in history.

We have to be better than the terrorists, sinking to their level degrades us and makes us no different to them.

the sinking to their level thing does not scan

the motives are not the same

one has an aim to kill
one has an aim to prevent murder

Ultimately the blame should lie with those men who think they are right and are prepared to kill people to prove it.

Tom4784 · 10-12-2014, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrooge

the sinking to their level thing does not scan

the motives are not the same

one has an aim to kill
one has an aim to prevent murder

Ultimately the blame should lie with those men who think they are right and are prepared to kill people to prove it.

It does though, if we present ourselves as the Bastion of Democracy and advocates of Human Rights we can't go around abusing both on the sly in the guise of pretending it's for the greater good. It undermines everything we do and have done.

Crimson Dynamo · 10-12-2014, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dezzy

It does though, if we present ourselves as the Bastion of Democracy and advocates of Human Rights we can't go around abusing both on the sly in the guise of pretending it's for the greater good. It undermines everything we do and have done.

we are but we are realistic and realise than when dealing with the filthy side of humanity one will get ones halo dirty.

kirklancaster · 10-12-2014, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrooge

the sinking to their level thing does not scan

the motives are not the same

one has an aim to kill
one has an aim to prevent murder

Ultimately the blame should lie with those men who think they are right and are prepared to kill people to prove it.

Fecking brilliantly put LT - You took the words right out of my mouth.

kirklancaster · 10-12-2014, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dezzy

How can we claim to be better than the terrorists when we preach human rights on the surface and then abuse them to get results? Using underhanded tactics to get results is not justifiable and trying to justify heinous acts by saying that it's ultimately for the greater good is a tactic often employed by some of the worst dictators in history.

We have to be better than the terrorists, sinking to their level degrades us and makes us no different to them.

Try preaching those sentiments to the wives and mothers of fallen soldiers who were killed fighting a war on our behalf - a war which these Islamic Fundamentalist devils started unjustly.

Try preaching it to the grief-stricken parents of all the tiny innocent children killed or maimed in indiscriminate car bombings in civilian areas or in the deliberate targeting of schools and hospitals by these warped terrorists bastards.

For now - thanks to our soldiers and our intelligence and security services - we can both enjoy the freedom to express any opinion we want without fear of recrimination.

For how much longer, however, may truly depend on whether we get real and abandon our 'moral' shackles, or continue to fight inhuman, immoral devils wielding bombs and guns with fluffy pink slippers.

Creggle · 10-12-2014, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dezzy

How can we claim to be better than the terrorists when we preach human rights on the surface and then abuse them to get results? Using underhanded tactics to get results is not justifiable and trying to justify heinous acts by saying that it's ultimately for the greater good is a tactic often employed by some of the worst dictators in history.

We have to be better than the terrorists, sinking to their level degrades us and makes us no different to them.

They don't deserve human rights, though. IMO not every living breathing human should have the same 'standard' of rights, heck innocent animals are killed on a daily basis just 'because', why on Earth should a terrorist deserve rights when they are so far below every other living creature on Earth?

kirklancaster · 10-12-2014, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creggle

They don't deserve human rights, though. IMO not every living breathing human should have the same 'standard' of rights, heck innocent animals are killed on a daily basis just 'because', why on Earth should a terrorist deserve rights when they are so far below every other living creature on Earth?

Tom4784 · 10-12-2014, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Try preaching those sentiments to the wives and mothers of fallen soldiers who were killed fighting a war on our behalf - a war which these Islamic Fundamentalist devils started unjustly.

Try preaching it to the grief-stricken parents of all the tiny innocent children killed or maimed in indiscriminate car bombings in civilian areas or in the deliberate targeting of schools and hospitals by these warped terrorists bastards.

For now - thanks to our soldiers and our intelligence and security services - we can both enjoy the freedom to express any opinion we want without fear of recrimination.

For how much longer, however, may truly depend on whether we get real and abandon our 'moral' shackles, or continue to fight inhuman, immoral devils wielding bombs and guns with fluffy pink slippers.

That sounds a lot like rationalising to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creggle

They don't deserve human rights, though. IMO not every living breathing human should have the same 'standard' of rights, heck innocent animals are killed on a daily basis just 'because', why on Earth should a terrorist deserve rights when they are so far below every other living creature on Earth?

Because we must practice what we preach, also you can't pick or choose. Either you believe everyone deserves Human Rights or nobody does. It's a black and white issue, grey doesn't exist here.

The war in Iraq and everything that followed was done in the name of ending extremism and ending regimes like Saddam Hussein's and that ironically resulted in the rise of IS which even the Al Queda doesn't want to be associated with. It was the need for a blood price in the first place that created IS and if we're comitting human rights abuses ourselves then that just gives IS more power and arguments against the West to recruit people into their ranks.

Niamh. · 10-12-2014, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dezzy

That sounds a lot like rationalising to me.

Because we must practice what we preach, also you can't pick or choose. Either you believe everyone deserves Human Rights or nobody does. It's a black and white issue, grey doesn't exist here.

The war in Iraq and everything that followed was done in the name of ending extremism and ending regimes like Saddam Hussein's and that ironically resulted in the rise of IS which even the Al Queda doesn't want to be associated with. It was the need for a blood price in the first place that created IS and if we're comitting human rights abuses ourselves then that just gives IS more power and arguments against the West to recruit people into their ranks.

yup, very good point

Creggle · 10-12-2014, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Because we must practice what we preach, also you can't pick or choose. Either you believe everyone deserves Human Rights or nobody does. It's a black and white issue, grey doesn't exist here.

The war in Iraq and everything that followed was done in the name of ending extremism and ending regimes like Saddam Hussein's and that ironically resulted in the rise of IS which even the Al Queda doesn't want to be associated with. It was the need for a blood price in the first place that created IS and if we're comitting human rights abuses ourselves then that just gives IS more power and arguments against the West to recruit people into their ranks.

Why is it black and white though? Because somebody happens to be a human? To some people it is grey and they have just as much right to see it like that. It's the decisions in life you choose to make, the actions you commit, that define the rights you are entitled to. There should be no reasoning, no negotiating and no mercy for terrorists. They deserve only death and suffering, which they themselves take great pleasure in inflicting on other people.

It wasn't a need for anything, it wasn't retaliation, it wasn't religion, it isn't brainwashing. IS and other fundamentalists are broken, worthless sacks of flesh that crave to hurt and maim other living creatures, they are psychopathic monsters and their religion is an excuse, it is their enabler. Give them any other guise to do what they do under, and they would of taken it.

Some people have that monster inside of them, some of them go through their lives never realising it, the rest, well... History speaks for itself.

Tom4784 · 10-12-2014, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creggle

Why is it black and white though? Because somebody happens to be a human? To some people it is grey and they have just as much right to see it like that. It's the decisions in life you choose to make, the actions you commit, that define the rights you are entitled to. There should be no reasoning, no negotiating and no mercy for terrorists. They deserve only death and suffering, which they themselves take great pleasure in inflicting on other people.

It wasn't a need for anything, it wasn't retaliation, it wasn't religion, it isn't brainwashing. IS and other fundamentalists are broken, worthless sacks of flesh that crave to hurt and maim other living creatures, they are psychopathic monsters and their religion is an excuse, it is their enabler. Give them any other guise to do what they do under, and they would of taken it.

Some people have that monster inside of them, some of them go through their lives never realising it, the rest, well... History speaks for itself.

Say what you will but it doesn't change the fact that it's a black and white issue. You either believe that everyone deserves Human Rights or you don't believe in Human Rights at all because picking and choosing who you think should have rights definitely falls under the latter.

The rest is just rationalising that I have no interest in, rationalising the need for a needless war is what gave rise to IS in the first place. The wars in the middle east have left everyone in a worse state than before. Rationalising bloodlust and hysteria have never led to anything good.

kirklancaster · 10-12-2014, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creggle

Why is it black and white though? Because somebody happens to be a human? To some people it is grey and they have just as much right to see it like that. It's the decisions in life you choose to make, the actions you commit, that define the rights you are entitled to. There should be no reasoning, no negotiating and no mercy for terrorists. They deserve only death and suffering, which they themselves take great pleasure in inflicting on other people.

It wasn't a need for anything, it wasn't retaliation, it wasn't religion, it isn't brainwashing. IS and other fundamentalists are broken, worthless sacks of flesh that crave to hurt and maim other living creatures, they are psychopathic monsters and their religion is an excuse, it is their enabler. Give them any other guise to do what they do under, and they would of taken it.

Some people have that monster inside of them, some of them go through their lives never realising it, the rest, well... History speaks for itself.

Wow Creggle - you can be my mate. That's so brilliantly put.

MTVN · 10-12-2014, 12:51 PM

Even if you have no ethical qualms about torture and its illegailty, surely this report casts massive doubts on its effectiveness even from a strictly utilitarian point of view. It goes some way to confirming what people have said for years; that information gleamed from torture is frequently unreliable by the very nature of its method. People either say anything their captors want to stop the pain or their mind is in such a state that they might not even know whether what they are saying is true or not.

The most valuable information that the CIA gained came through their tried and tested, legal interrogation measures, not their torturous ones.

Livia · 10-12-2014, 01:26 PM

We aren't dealing with a cause that can be reasoned or negotiated with. If we (USA and UK) really were "sinking to their level" we'd be dragging people out and having them watch while soldiers gang raped their wives and daughters and dismembered their sons... and that's just the nice stuff. I refuse to wring my hands for terrorists and their supporters knowing what these people are capable of, and I'm frankly shocked that Obama couldn't have kept his flapping gob shut on this one. No one in custody is totally innocent, they will be guilty at least by association. The security services don't arrest people and detain them for fun, they want to get to the root of the problem. If you want to make an omelette you have to break some eggs. If you want to live in safety and freedom, you have to take out the terrorist by any means necessary.

kirklancaster · 10-12-2014, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Livia

We aren't dealing with a cause that can be reasoned or negotiated with. If we (USA and UK) really were "sinking to their level" we'd be dragging people out and having them watch while soldiers gang raped their wives and daughters and dismembered their sons... and that's just the nice stuff. I refuse to wring my hands for terrorists and their supporters knowing what these people are capable of, and I'm frankly shocked that Obama couldn't have kept his flapping gob shut on this one. No one in custody is totally innocent, they will be guilty at least by association. The security services don't arrest people and detain them for fun, they want to get to the root of the problem. If you want to make an omelette you have to break some eggs. If you want to live in safety and freedom, you have to take out the terrorist by any means necessary.