[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Samuel.

University hasn't only taught me well, I've grown considerably as a person since going. The changes I've gone through personally have been worth way more to me then the degree at the end of it. Regardless of the job prospects going forward, I feel more ready for life than I could have imagined as the timid hermit I was previously. This doesn't apply to everybody but it's been so vital for me; I found myself.

Completely agree. Having to earn over 21k to pay back around £30 a month, roughly the same as a mobile phone contract, is nothing really.

Good post great sense.

More young people aren't equipped to deal with life now because technology has taken over from real human interaction; people text instead of talking, punch keyboards instead of talking, live life by proxy via video games in darkened rooms instead of going out into the world and enjoying their own real mini-adventures.

I'm glad for you Samuel. Really glad. You sound so balanced and mature. Let's hope this fact and your qualifications do lead to a good career which you'll enjoy.

[Samm]

The student debt should be lowered or just cut overall

[arista]

Originally Posted by ~Sam~

The student debt should be lowered or just cut overall

New Labour
brought it in



Its here forever
Suck it Up

[Jay.]

I'm doing a communication and media degree. So if I got bored of being a teacher, I could work with in any office workplace with ease. I also need a degree in Media/English to work as a Media/English/ICT teacher.

The fee's can be easily paid off too, I'm not too worried about that.

[Jay.]

Uni's also offer a lot of work placements. I have the chance of either taking a year long placement of a 4 week minimum.

[joeysteele]

My parents saw me through UNI, I see myself as one of the lucky ones,it still doesn't change the fact that some people will come out of UNI with upwards of over £25,000 of debt around their necks even before they start doing anything else.

It is a debt that is there too, should they need to apply for other things.

Okay, Labour introduced the fees, then increased them slightly.
Then in 2010 we had the Lib Dems warning that the Conservatives were going to at least double the fees from the £3,000 they were then.
The Lib Dems near stalked new and existing students promising to abolish the fees altogether and if they had any influence after the 2010 election, to never vote to increase them.
Then they voted to actually 'treble' them.

I am no longer a student at Uni, I do however applaud Labour's plan to reduce the max. by a third to £6,000.
Also the very last people who should be talking about tuition fees and what should be done, are both the Conservatives and Lib Dems.
The Conservatives for not revealing they intended to treble the fees and the Lib Dems for their misleading of students and their families with their then betrayal of even signed pledges.

There are good and not so good students, Uni can be both physically and mentally draining for years, no wonder when assignments and work is complete, they really go wild and let their hair down.
It is easy to say all students are lazy,without actual fair and just knowledge of what they are doing, some courses are far harder and demanding than others.

Since joining tibb in 2010,I have had to battle against near prejudice and put downs as to students but I would like to see those who criticise and judge do some of the intense work and endless researching I had to do with strict deadlines.

I worked with dedication and extremely hard for my degrees and I was glad I was lucky enough to have the family backing not to leave Uni with massive debt around my neck, no matter how much I would have had to pay back or when.
It is still a total debt Students have.
All before going to try to buy property or rent property as well as all other things they need to do with any finances.

Any reduction in that new debt since the fees were trebled under this lying coalition govt; should be welcomed in my view, by Students, their families and those planning to just explore going to Uni too.

[JoshBB]

It's great that labour want to reduce them by 3000, but since they have been tripled since 2010 it just really isn't enough. Step in the right direction, yes. Enough, no.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

It's great that labour want to reduce them by 3000, but since they have been tripled since 2010 it just really isn't enough. Step in the right direction, yes. Enough, no.

You ae right, it isn't enough, they should be reduced by at least half in my view, Universities were doing okay when they were only £3,000 a year ,so still near being doubled should be more than ample,despite the Universities croaking.

This is at least a start in the right direction.

However, it is in my view obscene that students at Uni, should come out of that education, (and despite the views of some who always get at students, actually do work really hard in the main for their degrees), with likely debts of more than £25,000 around their necks which are then taken into account when applying for mortgages etc; too.
Just for trying to better themselves.

Get jobs rather than UNi some say, what jobs, a part time job, a zero hours contrac job or another low paid job where in fact in those sort of jobs very little and even no tax would be paid anyway.
It is easy to attack students as being lazy and Uni a waste of time,while others can hold that view it doesn't make it right to brand all students the same.
I do get really annoyed at that since I saw how hard others worked at UNI and how hard and stressful I found it at times too.
Often having to prepare and work all through the night,over my years at UNI,at times to make sure I had everything done and in order.

The fact is this coalition should have never trebled the fees in the first place,with a policy to at least double the fees from one party and the wish to abolish the fees by the other party in the coalition,how the compromise came to actually treble them, is beyond all understanding to me.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

You ae right, it isn't enough, they should be reduced by at least half in my view, Universities were doing okay when they were only £3,000 a year ,so still near being doubled should be more than ample,despite the Universities croaking.

This is at least a start in the right direction.

However, it is in my view obscene that students at Uni, should come out of that education, (and despite the views of some who always get at students, actually do work really hard in the main for their degrees), with likely debts of more than £25,000 around their necks which are then taken into account when applying for mortgages etc; too.
Just for trying to better themselves.

Get jobs rather than UNi some say, what jobs, a part time job, a zero hours contrac job or another low paid job where in fact in those sort of jobs very little and even no tax would be paid anyway.
It is easy to attack students as being lazy and Uni a waste of time,while others can hold that view it doesn't make it right to brand all students the same.
I do get really annoyed at that since I saw how hard others worked at UNI and how hard and stressful I found it at times too.
Often having to prepare and work all through the night,over my years at UNI,at times to make sure I had everything done and in order.

The fact is this coalition should have never trebled the fees in the first place,with a policy to at least double the fees from one party and the wish to abolish the fees by the other party in the coalition,how the compromise came to actually treble them, is beyond all understanding to me.

[Kizzy]

If my daughter had been born a couple of months earlier she would have been in with the last intake to start at 3k :/

[user104658]

I can appreciate that Uni students, during those years, could be seen as "doing very little" but there's more to the University experience than that, in my opinion. More to it than the job you get / money you make afterwards, too. About to throw out some MASSIVE generalizations here but... meh... it is true:

People who I know around my age, in their 20's / 30's. The ones who went to University are generally making less money than the ones who went straight into employment or trades. Yes. However, the ones who went straight into employments and trades are - in general - ****ing pig ignorant to anything in the world outside of their home town (which they probably grew up in, and went to school in too). They are fixing up the same houses they walked past when they were 5 years old. They're drinking in the same dusty pubs, with the same dusty friends, that they had their first pint in at 18. Fast forward 40 years and the ones who haven't drunk or eaten themselves to death will still be drinking in those same dusty pubs with the same dusty friends.

A University education teaches you how to think critically, to reason, to use logic. To know more about the world - to be INTERESTED in knowing more about the world - than what has fallen into your tiny sphere of existence.

I know the former is enough for some people. "Go to school get a trade get a job get married have some kids buy a house retire die". It's (rightly) not enough for many people.

I'm also not going to pretend that there aren't a huge number of students who fail to make the most of their time at University. There definitely are. In my opinion, though, much of that is due to massive failings in how the education system preceding University works. That is a WHOLE other debate, though. It's also sort of irrelevant. Stating that University is a "waste of time" for anyone who isn't seeking a vocational qualification is, frankly, bull****. It stems from the sort of mindset that thinks "work work working and accumulating wealth" is the be all and end all of the human experience.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I can appreciate that Uni students, during those years, could be seen as "doing very little" but there's more to the University experience than that, in my opinion. More to it than the job you get / money you make afterwards, too. About to throw out some MASSIVE generalizations here but... meh... it is true:

People who I know around my age, in their 20's / 30's. The ones who went to University are generally making less money than the ones who went straight into employment or trades. Yes. However, the ones who went straight into employments and trades are - in general - ****ing pig ignorant to anything in the world outside of their home town (which they probably grew up in, and went to school in too). They are fixing up the same houses they walked past when they were 5 years old. They're drinking in the same dusty pubs, with the same dusty friends, that they had their first pint in at 18. Fast forward 40 years and the ones who haven't drunk or eaten themselves to death will still be drinking in those same dusty pubs with the same dusty friends.

A University education teaches you how to think critically, to reason, to use logic. To know more about the world - to be INTERESTED in knowing more about the world - than what has fallen into your tiny sphere of existence.

I know the former is enough for some people. "Go to school get a trade get a job get married have some kids buy a house retire die". It's (rightly) not enough for many people.

I'm also not going to pretend that there aren't a huge number of students who fail to make the most of their time at University. There definitely are. In my opinion, though, much of that is due to massive failings in how the education system preceding University works. That is a WHOLE other debate, though. It's also sort of irrelevant. Stating that University is a "waste of time" for anyone who isn't seeking a vocational qualification is, frankly, bull****. It stems from the sort of mindset that thinks "work work working and accumulating wealth" is the be all and end all of the human experience.

A cracking post.

I never went to uni so I can only relate via my 3 kids, but the points you make about it are valid in my opinion. It is more than mere education (as Samuel so elegantly puts it in his post).

I can however, definitely vouch for your sentiments in the section which I have emboldened because I recognise everything you say in it. I would go further and add that such people usually end up marrying the girl from the next street - if not the next door. We are different generations but it seems like nothing much has changed there.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

agreed, too many stupid media degrees etc

fine for lawyers and doctors but things like media, history, psychology and all that stuff should be ended

10 hours work a week and the rest of time wanking, watching telly and drinking?

feck off you lazy student gits

Nonsense, without history government and society would be devoid of any direction or understanding

[Marsh.]

That's exactly it. It's all well and good throwing people into employment at the earliest possible age so they can contribute to taxes, taxes, taxes but there is more to life.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Marsh.

That's exactly it. It's all well and good throwing people into employment at the earliest possible age so they can contribute to taxes, taxes, taxes but there is more to life.

Good point Marsh. Being 'trapped' by financial circumstances in a job we do not like really does become 'work'. Being relatively happy in a career is worth thousands of pounds in my opinion.

[smudgie]

Totally up to the individual, both of mine went to uni.
Son went first, being the elldest, bright lad, but he felt dragged down by yet more education and dropped out after about 5 months.
Daughter had the sense to have a gap year, she was then looking forward to it, she loved every minute of it, moved to Brighton to do her teaching degree and has never looked back.
Son ended up doing his degree whilst doing an apprenticeship so he got there in the end,
He ended up with so much less debt, but our daughter has ended up with so much more life experience, the difference in their wages is not that big once her uni fees are taken out of her monthly wage packet, maybe about £6grand, but her chances of promotions are far higher.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by smudgie

Totally up to the individual, both of mine went to uni.
Son went first, being the elldest, bright lad, but he felt dragged down by yet more education and dropped out after about 5 months.
Daughter had the sense to have a gap year, she was then looking forward to it, she loved every minute of it, moved to Brighton to do her teaching degree and has never looked back.
Son ended up doing his degree whilst doing an apprenticeship so he got there in the end,
He ended up with so much less debt, but our daughter has ended up with so much more life experience, the difference in their wages is not that big once her uni fees are taken out of her monthly wage packet, maybe about £6grand, but her chances of promotions are far higher.

Great to hear Smudgie. My son racked up over £30K of debt gaining his Law degree but now works in a completely different field. My other two are still trying to find their way but at least all three are educated and happy.

Like you say; it's up to the individual.

[Nedusa]

It's one of the biggest scams going, create thousands of pointless degree courses after upgrading hundreds of further education colleges to give out these pointless degrees.

So thousands of students who would be better suited to vocational work or professional trades have now got a sub standard degree in media studies from a university nobody has heard of. And they have £30,000 debt as well.

So now unemployed looking for that perfect media job they are sadly disappointed to learn 5,000 other graduates have similar or better degrees and they too are looking for the same job you are after.

So now unable to get your foot on the ladder to success unable to slot into the high powered media position you thought was there , instead saddled with 30 grand of debt you cannot leave your parents house and have to take any job you find.

So McDonald's at this point start to look like a good career move....

This situation is replayed over and over again and is a direct consequence of the shameful exploitation of the higher education system and a misguided or deluded idea that everyone should have a degree and all go to excel in high powered professional careers.

Society doesn't work like that , we can't all be Chiefs there have to be some Indians . A mixture of workers straddling all levels of employment .

Getting an apprentiship and being trained and paid and getting work experience from the start is now a very desirable career choice. I only wish there were more apprentiships out there.

But the present situation is unsustainable and unfair to the hundreds of thousands of youngsters whose carreer aspirations are being seriously undermined by successive govts shortsighted and ultimately flawed education policies.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

It's one of the biggest scams going, create thousands of pointless degree courses after upgrading hundreds of further education colleges to give out these pointless degrees.

So thousands of students who would be better suited to vocational work or professional trades have now got a sub standard degree in media studies from a university nobody has heard of. And they have £30,000 debt as well.

So now unemployed looking for that perfect media job they are sadly disappointed to learn 5,000 other graduates have similar or better degrees and they too are looking for the same job you are after.

So now unable to get your foot on the ladder to success unable to slot into the high powered media position you thought was there , instead saddled with 30 grand of debt you cannot leave your parents house and have to take any job you find.

So McDonald's at this point start to look like a good career move....

This situation is replayed over and over again and is a direct consequence of the shameful exploitation of the higher education system and a misguided or deluded idea that everyone should have a degree and all go to excel in high powered professional careers.

Society doesn't work like that , we can't all be Chiefs there have to be some Indians . A mixture of workers straddling all levels of employment .

Getting an apprentiship and being trained and paid and getting work experience from the start is now a very desirable career choice. I only wish there were more apprentiships out there.

But the present situation is unsustainable and unfair to the hundreds of thousands of youngsters whose carreer aspirations are being seriously undermined by successive govts shortsighted and ultimately flawed education policies.

I'm beginning to hate you Nedusa because my knees are getting sore from kneeling in worship. Another brilliantly written post.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by Nedusa

It's one of the biggest scams going, create thousands of pointless degree courses after upgrading hundreds of further education colleges to give out these pointless degrees.

So thousands of students who would be better suited to vocational work or professional trades have now got a sub standard degree in media studies from a university nobody has heard of. And they have £30,000 debt as well.

So now unemployed looking for that perfect media job they are sadly disappointed to learn 5,000 other graduates have similar or better degrees and they too are looking for the same job you are after.

So now unable to get your foot on the ladder to success unable to slot into the high powered media position you thought was there , instead saddled with 30 grand of debt you cannot leave your parents house and have to take any job you find.

So McDonald's at this point start to look like a good career move....

This situation is replayed over and over again and is a direct consequence of the shameful exploitation of the higher education system and a misguided or deluded idea that everyone should have a degree and all go to excel in high powered professional careers.

Society doesn't work like that , we can't all be Chiefs there have to be some Indians . A mixture of workers straddling all levels of employment .

Getting an apprentiship and being trained and paid and getting work experience from the start is now a very desirable career choice. I only wish there were more apprentiships out there.

But the present situation is unsustainable and unfair to the hundreds of thousands of youngsters whose carreer aspirations are being seriously undermined by successive govts shortsighted and ultimately flawed education policies.

Great post Nedusa

[jennyjuniper]

Having a university degree can be beneficial, even if you don't actually use the degree you studied for. My daughter and son-in-law both got degrees and worked part time whilst at university. Their employers offered them full time employment as soon as they finished uni AND their pay scale was higher than someone doing the same job, but without the degree.

[Kizzy]

I don't subscribe to a two tier class system, those who can't get in to uni with an AAA shunted to £2ph apprenticeships.
Degree courses are designed not only to educate but inspire, challenge, motivate and shape those who can dedicate 3yrs to them, it's not the easy option.

There are still many who prefer vocational work and have the desired qualifications to commit to the theory work involved in real apprenticeships such as plumber/electrician.

There are also plenty that I feel are getting the bum deal, the ones who have no A-C grade qualifications, who struggle to find anyone to take them on in any role no matter how menial. They are the ones forced into workfare type roles all stick and no carrot,or given what I class as a faux apprenticeship as a 'sandwich technician'. It's never going to lead to a full time position as there are an endless stream of young people to do the same thing for next to nothing... what are their life choices?

[user104658]

War robots? w..wtf? This thread has taken a surreal turn

Anyway...

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Degree courses are designed not only to educate but inspire, challenge, motivate and shape those who can dedicate 3yrs to them, it's not the easy option.

Totally agree with that, Kizzy. Most people who claim that Uni is an "easy 10 hours a week" or "doesn't involve hard work" are usually people who haven't been to University. Now, whilst it is true that in many courses you can "coast" the first year or two, as with anything, if you want to excel then you have to work very hard to stand out. Just as you would in any job. University is self-driven education, 10 hours of classes could (should) easily translate into a full week once you include time spent writing essays or reports (a good one will take several days work), self-driven study, etc. A lot of students also hold down part-time jobs of 16 - 25 hours per week on top of that. Also, whilst you can coast the first couple of years, for most degrees you will not complete your final year and get a degree worth having (2:1 or above) without putting in the effort.

Are the some students who skip classes, drink all day and generally just mess around? Of course there are, but there are plenty of people who are lazy in their jobs / careers too.

[Jay.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

War robots? w..wtf? This thread has taken a surreal turn

Anyway...



Totally agree with that, Kizzy. Most people who claim that Uni is an "easy 10 hours a week" or "doesn't involve hard work" are usually people who haven't been to University. Now, whilst it is true that in many courses you can "coast" the first year or two, as with anything, if you want to excel then you have to work very hard to stand out. Just as you would in any job. University is self-driven education, 10 hours of classes could (should) easily translate into a full week once you include time spent writing essays or reports (a good one will take several days work), self-driven study, etc. A lot of students also hold down part-time jobs of 16 - 25 hours per week on top of that. Also, whilst you can coast the first couple of years, for most degrees you will not complete your final year and get a degree worth having (2:1 or above) without putting in the effort.

Are the some students who skip classes, drink all day and generally just mess around? Of course there are, but there are plenty of people who are lazy in their jobs / careers too.

Exactly this. You are expected to more than the minimum. I have 2/3 days a week at uni, but that doesn't mean I'm not doing anything the rest of the time. And I care for my nan alongside it, so I can't have much of a social life. But I make sure I spend enough time on my work and I'm usually the first in my group to say they've started the work, or to even finish it. There are some people in my class that I've only seen a few times, that is their fault. They are missing out & probably (definitely) won't pass the course.

It's all down to the type of person really. Some excel, some go just for fun. It's easy to see what will pay off in the long term.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

War robots? w..wtf? This thread has taken a surreal turn

Anyway...



Totally agree with that, Kizzy. Most people who claim that Uni is an "easy 10 hours a week" or "doesn't involve hard work" are usually people who haven't been to University. Now, whilst it is true that in many courses you can "coast" the first year or two, as with anything, if you want to excel then you have to work very hard to stand out. Just as you would in any job. University is self-driven education, 10 hours of classes could (should) easily translate into a full week once you include time spent writing essays or reports (a good one will take several days work), self-driven study, etc. A lot of students also hold down part-time jobs of 16 - 25 hours per week on top of that. Also, whilst you can coast the first couple of years, for most degrees you will not complete your final year and get a degree worth having (2:1 or above) without putting in the effort.

Are the some students who skip classes, drink all day and generally just mess around? Of course there are, but there are plenty of people who are lazy in their jobs / careers too.

Oh very well said and thank you for doing so.

This thread has just turned into a get at students thread.
Such has been the case since I joined in 2010, because I was a student then,by some when almost every word was criticised and challenged with attempts to belittle.

As you say likely from those who haven't been to University but who make generalisations about all students as if they were 2nd rate citizens.