[user104658]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

If you are suggesting that the 'accidental' e-mail was a deliberate ploy and just an ingenious part of the pro-EU propaganda machine - then I totally agree with you T.S and we think alike.

'Accident' my arse.

The super rich, the multi-National Corporations and corrupt politicians with connections to those first two listed and who receive their kick-backs from them, are the ones who TOOK us into Europe and who are KEEPING us in Europe, and it is brilliant devised propaganda tactics like this bollox 'accident' in addition to their control of the all powerful media which virtually GUARANTEES that the public will swallow their tripe and vote to STAY in.

(**** -I'm beginning to sound like Russell Brand! )

Well I don't want the UK to leave Europe, but yes, the idea that the email was leaked accidentally is so ridiculous that I think it qualifies as satire.

"Hey guys I've just written a sensitive email saying we shouldn't say anything to the press OOPS I pressed the wrong button and emailed it directly to them myself."

I've gotten used to this sort of "charade politics" recently but it's getting to the point where they aren't even trying to be clever any more, they're just coming up with flimsy excuses and expecting people to buy it... or actually, probably not caring if they buy it or not.

"Sir, may I ask how exactly the only copy of a sensitive incriminating document disappeared over night?"

"My dog ate it."

"You don't have a dog!"

"Hamster ate it. Or it was in my pocket and got put through the wash. Something. Go away."

[Kizzy]

I'm saddened to see Labour sliding further centre and backing this, the CBI, the BofE and other banks have railed against it, I have yet to hear where will trade from.... It's not like we can set up a barrow in the 'world market' it will be with the WTO. Would there be freedom of movement expected there too? If some are so frosty about Eastern Europeans coming here to live and work how will they cope with the rest of the world?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

If you are suggesting that the 'accidental' e-mail was a deliberate ploy and just an ingenious part of the pro-EU propaganda machine - then I totally agree with you T.S and we think alike.

'Accident' my arse.

The super rich, the multi-National Corporations and corrupt politicians with connections to those first two listed and who receive their kick-backs from them, are the ones who TOOK us into Europe and who are KEEPING us in Europe, and it is brilliant devised propaganda tactics like this bollox 'accident' in addition to their control of the all powerful media which virtually GUARANTEES that the public will swallow their tripe and vote to STAY in.

(**** -I'm beginning to sound like Russell Brand! )

Good... you should try to sound more like him if you can
He was right democracy is a sham, there is no democracy as decisions like this are made weeeeeell before we get a say, just like the election really. You can see the same propaganda, leaks and spin used in that too the vote is just an illusion that we have any influence.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I'm saddened to see Labour sliding further centre and backing this, the CBI, the BofE and other banks have railed against it, I have yet to hear where will trade from.... It's not like we can set up a barrow in the 'world market' it will be with the WTO. Would there be freedom of movement expected there too? If some are so frosty about Eastern Europeans coming here to live and work how will they cope with the rest of the world?

Yes sad Kizzy
that Joey likes it
and You can not connect with the North England feeling


So many in Labour wanted this
you must have ear pluggs on.

[Kizzy]

I don't care what the north/south want/don't want that is MY position on this.

[smudgie]

I just want proper debates from those concerned, we need to know the facts on how it will affect us business wise, as well as on a personal level.
We do need reforms, this country can no longer carry in burying it's head in the sand any longer. But we must also avoid any knee jerk reactions to the propaganda that is heading in our direction.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes sad Kizzy
that Joey likes it
and You can not connect with the North England feeling


So many in Labour wanted this
you must have ear pluggs on.

I don't like the idea of a referendum and I hate the idea of the UK voting to leave the EU.
Which I think is a more than possible outcome too.
However with the votes for the Conservatives and for UKIP,considering the Greens were in favour of a referendum too.
Then over 50% of those who voted backed parties supporting a referendum,sincere as to holding one or not.

I did find on the doorsteps canvassing,people who wished Ed Miliband had also offered one.
I think he could have saved some seats and gained more votes had he done so.

So what I am glad about this now is, that Labour now appears to not want to play party politics with it.
That is a good thing.
That they also will support the bill being held, and then help campaign like crazy to help win the staying in cause.

I will be really glad, to have this issue settled before the next election now.
Whenever something happens as to an election result, you have to take stock of where it went wrong or good for you and learn from it.

I am a full democrat and accept more of the voters want their say as to the EU now,so am pleased both main parties can maybe reach some agreement as to the best way forward on this issue now.

To quote you arista, 'sign of the times'.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I don't care what the north/south want/don't want that is MY position on this.

Your Position is No Rights for us
to vote in or out.


You are Out of Touch

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by arista

Your Position is No Rights for us
to vote in or out.


You are Out of Touch

You're out of touch if you think for one second that the public get to decide this... Does anyone seriously think for one second the public gets to determine the economics of the UK?

[arista]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You're out of touch if you think for one second that the public get to decide this... Does anyone seriously think for one second the public gets to determine the economics of the UK?

2017
we will see


Even Your Labour backs it.
You are out of touch , because of that fact

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by arista

2017
we will see


Even Your Labour backs it.
You are out of touch , because of that fact

I'm not out of touch because I want to stay in the EU regardless of the will of any party to the contrary.
They will no longer be 'my' party if they push for an exit.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I'm not out of touch because I want to stay in the EU regardless of the will of any party to the contrary.
They will no longer be 'my' party if they push for an exit.

Labour will never push for to exit the EU,I can guarantee you that.
They will be battling like crazy to get the vote to be yes to staying in.

This is good in my view, despite my reservations,as if the austerity cuts hit too hard again and this govt. becomes really unpopular by the time this referendum is held, then having the govt. and opposition agreeing to stay in, I can hope, will only help the staying in cause.

Equally you, I and others who want to stay in, need to do our bit by trying as best we can to persuade as many people as we can to vote to stay in too.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I'm not out of touch because I want to stay in the EU regardless of the will of any party to the contrary.
They will no longer be 'my' party if they push for an exit.

No they are not wanting a Exit
if only you watched Marr BBC1HD
they want the public to debate and Vote
as its our wish.

Can you not Record things?

[arista]

"persuade as many people as we can to vote"

Yes joey you must

As millions want out

[Crimson Dynamo]

The BOE email is the start of project fear

just watch

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by arista

No they are not wanting a Exit
if only you watched Marr BBC1HD
they want the public to debate and Vote
as its our wish.

Can you not Record things?

What's up with you promoting the bloated BBC?..

I'll watch what I want ta.
I'm confident like Joey they won't want an exit but even the referendum worries me. Things can be manipulated so easily.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

What's up with you promoting the bloated BBC?..

I'll watch what I want ta.
I'm confident like Joey they won't want an exit but even the referendum worries me. Things can be manipulated so easily.

Marr
is special as
it got the first Exclusive.


Why Not Record it
are you not able to - if you tell me
then I know in future


As for the Fecking Bloated BBC
I am paying for it
against my will.

If they Stop the Stupid Outdated Tax
and use "P" Product Placement
and ads
they can move on.

[the truth]

absolutely pathetic....they've been saying all of this was racism for 20 years now they are exposed as utterly fake with their endless fake outrage and fake racist accusations, now the truth is out and the facts and figures as delivered by farage and co for years has exposed the new labour charlatans....the to think any party who murdered 1 million plus foreigners in an illegal could preach to anyone about racism is unbelievable...new labour is truly the most transparent cowardly dangerous pernicious self serving sub human party that ever existed...no wonder old school socialists like tony benn despised it and the vile war criminal tony bliar

[arista]

Bang Bang
were Off


Rock on late 2017

[arista]

And Ref: 16 year old voters for England
thats a Labour Policy
and they Fecked up and Lost the Election.


We are now in a Conservative Power
and for Scotland they have SNP
my mates
that killed off Labour MP's

[Kizzy]

How can they push ahead without the say so of the Scots and Welsh, We are still the UK?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

How can they push ahead without the say so of the Scots and Welsh, We are still the UK?

If he fails to make the referendum locked as to that all 4 Countries of the UK must vote to leave, then if the result is to leave, Nicola Sturgeon has already indicated that could be a change to trigger off another independence referendum in Scotland.

He has many headaches to come on this referendum for sure.

He would bring about a constitutional crisis if he imposes on Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, the leaving of the EU even if they voted to stay.
It would be even worse,if they voted heavily to stay in,but the South of England voted to leave.
The then new and greater divisions in the UK in that scenario would be massive.

He also needs to do, what the Scots did in the independence referendum, allow those aged 16 and 17 to vote in it too.

It is going to be over 40 years since the last Europe referendum issue was held, it would be wrong,in my view, not to allow those aged 16 and 17 by the time of the referendum, not to have their say as to the future of the UK and the EU.
They are after all, the future of the UK.

I really think he hoped he could get out of this, by not having a majority and blaming same on a coalition situation again.
Now he has a small majority and further that Labour have now said they will vote for a referendum, he really has to get this 100% spot on.
No room for any error or poor procrastination on this one,or he could yet still be the Prime Minister of the UK, who failed to keep the UK in the EU and also who finally split the UK as well into breaking up.

He gambled hard with this referendum policy, he has to ensure he wins on all counts,not just some.
I wouldn't like to be in his place as to this,then again I wouldn't have gone down the road he has.

This may yet turn into his absolute worst nightmare scenario and now with Labour supporting his referendum, he has no way out of it either.

[Kizzy]

Ah I see, he won't have the backing of the media either as he did in the election as Murdock won't give a rats if we're in or out. :/

[arista]

"allow those aged 16 and 17 to vote in it too."

so what Joey
England is not part of SNP Scotland


In the UK is was a flash in the pan
Labour policy.

They lost


Conservatives set the Rules now
not your sad party

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

"allow those aged 16 and 17 to vote in it too."

so what Joey
England is not part of SNP Scotland


In the UK is was a flash in the pan
Labour policy.

They lost


Conservatives set the Rules now
not your sad party

If he wants to leave anything open to criticism that he tried to 'engineer' a result, then he will not give 16 and 17 year old's the vote for this.
However,he is gambling heavily with their and the UK citizens futures.

Even worse would be, if he brings the referendum bill to parliament,without giving the vote to 16 and 17 year old's, then the opposition parties put forward an amendment to the bill for them to be included.
If he then ensures defeat for that amendment, he will be in very deep water once the result is announced,if it is a vote to leave the EU.

Also this referendum is not just about England either arista, it is for the whole UK and we have 4 Nations making up the UK.

If he presides over a result where Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland vote to stay in, the North of England votes narrowly to stay in too but the far South vote to come out heavily.
If he really takes the UK out of the EU against the wishes of the other Nations of the whole UK, he will open up, not a can or worms but the deadliest snakes imaginable.

He will have chaos in the UK,if he only gears this, as you seem to think he should, just to please those from the far South of England who are in effect, the only people who elect him to govt. across the whole UK.

He himself allowed the precedent to be set for those aged 16 and 17, when he allowed the Scots to include them in their independence referendum and therefore those young people's future.

If on the future of the UK in the EU, he now excludes those young people from having their say too in the EU referendum,he will leave himself and his govt. totally discredited as to fairness, and in fact, as to the likely legitimacy of the EU referendum at all.

He is not,as you would maybe like him to be, just Prime Minister of England,he is PM of the whole 4 nations of the UK and if he disregards their wishes as to his referendum, he goes down a very dangerous path indeed,taking the whole UK with him too.

Which if it goes really wrong, will all be firmly laid at his door, no one elses.
He had to approve the wording and method of the independence referendum in Scotland, so Scotland,Wales and N.Ireland should be afforded the same courtesy as to their wishes on this EU referendum too.

As I said, this could yet become his and indeed the UK's. worst nightmare in the whole history of the United Kingdom,(outside of world wars), if he gets just one tiny part of the planning wrong.