[Kizzy]

I'm saddened to see Labour sliding further centre and backing this, the CBI, the BofE and other banks have railed against it, I have yet to hear where will trade from.... It's not like we can set up a barrow in the 'world market' it will be with the WTO. Would there be freedom of movement expected there too? If some are so frosty about Eastern Europeans coming here to live and work how will they cope with the rest of the world?

[arista]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I'm saddened to see Labour sliding further centre and backing this, the CBI, the BofE and other banks have railed against it, I have yet to hear where will trade from.... It's not like we can set up a barrow in the 'world market' it will be with the WTO. Would there be freedom of movement expected there too? If some are so frosty about Eastern Europeans coming here to live and work how will they cope with the rest of the world?

Yes sad Kizzy
that Joey likes it
and You can not connect with the North England feeling


So many in Labour wanted this
you must have ear pluggs on.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes sad Kizzy
that Joey likes it
and You can not connect with the North England feeling


So many in Labour wanted this
you must have ear pluggs on.

I don't like the idea of a referendum and I hate the idea of the UK voting to leave the EU.
Which I think is a more than possible outcome too.
However with the votes for the Conservatives and for UKIP,considering the Greens were in favour of a referendum too.
Then over 50% of those who voted backed parties supporting a referendum,sincere as to holding one or not.

I did find on the doorsteps canvassing,people who wished Ed Miliband had also offered one.
I think he could have saved some seats and gained more votes had he done so.

So what I am glad about this now is, that Labour now appears to not want to play party politics with it.
That is a good thing.
That they also will support the bill being held, and then help campaign like crazy to help win the staying in cause.

I will be really glad, to have this issue settled before the next election now.
Whenever something happens as to an election result, you have to take stock of where it went wrong or good for you and learn from it.

I am a full democrat and accept more of the voters want their say as to the EU now,so am pleased both main parties can maybe reach some agreement as to the best way forward on this issue now.

To quote you arista, 'sign of the times'.

[Kizzy]

I don't care what the north/south want/don't want that is MY position on this.

[arista]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

I don't care what the north/south want/don't want that is MY position on this.

Your Position is No Rights for us
to vote in or out.


You are Out of Touch

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by arista

Your Position is No Rights for us
to vote in or out.


You are Out of Touch

You're out of touch if you think for one second that the public get to decide this... Does anyone seriously think for one second the public gets to determine the economics of the UK?

[arista]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

You're out of touch if you think for one second that the public get to decide this... Does anyone seriously think for one second the public gets to determine the economics of the UK?

2017
we will see


Even Your Labour backs it.
You are out of touch , because of that fact

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by arista

2017
we will see


Even Your Labour backs it.
You are out of touch , because of that fact

I'm not out of touch because I want to stay in the EU regardless of the will of any party to the contrary.
They will no longer be 'my' party if they push for an exit.

[smudgie]

I just want proper debates from those concerned, we need to know the facts on how it will affect us business wise, as well as on a personal level.
We do need reforms, this country can no longer carry in burying it's head in the sand any longer. But we must also avoid any knee jerk reactions to the propaganda that is heading in our direction.

[arista]

"persuade as many people as we can to vote"

Yes joey you must

As millions want out

[Christmas Dynasnow]

The BOE email is the start of project fear

just watch

[the truth]

absolutely pathetic....they've been saying all of this was racism for 20 years now they are exposed as utterly fake with their endless fake outrage and fake racist accusations, now the truth is out and the facts and figures as delivered by farage and co for years has exposed the new labour charlatans....the to think any party who murdered 1 million plus foreigners in an illegal could preach to anyone about racism is unbelievable...new labour is truly the most transparent cowardly dangerous pernicious self serving sub human party that ever existed...no wonder old school socialists like tony benn despised it and the vile war criminal tony bliar

[arista]

Bang Bang
were Off


Rock on late 2017

[arista]

And Ref: 16 year old voters for England
thats a Labour Policy
and they Fecked up and Lost the Election.


We are now in a Conservative Power
and for Scotland they have SNP
my mates
that killed off Labour MP's

[Kizzy]

How can they push ahead without the say so of the Scots and Welsh, We are still the UK?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

How can they push ahead without the say so of the Scots and Welsh, We are still the UK?

If he fails to make the referendum locked as to that all 4 Countries of the UK must vote to leave, then if the result is to leave, Nicola Sturgeon has already indicated that could be a change to trigger off another independence referendum in Scotland.

He has many headaches to come on this referendum for sure.

He would bring about a constitutional crisis if he imposes on Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, the leaving of the EU even if they voted to stay.
It would be even worse,if they voted heavily to stay in,but the South of England voted to leave.
The then new and greater divisions in the UK in that scenario would be massive.

He also needs to do, what the Scots did in the independence referendum, allow those aged 16 and 17 to vote in it too.

It is going to be over 40 years since the last Europe referendum issue was held, it would be wrong,in my view, not to allow those aged 16 and 17 by the time of the referendum, not to have their say as to the future of the UK and the EU.
They are after all, the future of the UK.

I really think he hoped he could get out of this, by not having a majority and blaming same on a coalition situation again.
Now he has a small majority and further that Labour have now said they will vote for a referendum, he really has to get this 100% spot on.
No room for any error or poor procrastination on this one,or he could yet still be the Prime Minister of the UK, who failed to keep the UK in the EU and also who finally split the UK as well into breaking up.

He gambled hard with this referendum policy, he has to ensure he wins on all counts,not just some.
I wouldn't like to be in his place as to this,then again I wouldn't have gone down the road he has.

This may yet turn into his absolute worst nightmare scenario and now with Labour supporting his referendum, he has no way out of it either.

[Kizzy]

Ah I see, he won't have the backing of the media either as he did in the election as Murdock won't give a rats if we're in or out. :/

[arista]

"allow those aged 16 and 17 to vote in it too."

so what Joey
England is not part of SNP Scotland


In the UK is was a flash in the pan
Labour policy.

They lost


Conservatives set the Rules now
not your sad party

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

"allow those aged 16 and 17 to vote in it too."

so what Joey
England is not part of SNP Scotland


In the UK is was a flash in the pan
Labour policy.

They lost


Conservatives set the Rules now
not your sad party

If he wants to leave anything open to criticism that he tried to 'engineer' a result, then he will not give 16 and 17 year old's the vote for this.
However,he is gambling heavily with their and the UK citizens futures.

Even worse would be, if he brings the referendum bill to parliament,without giving the vote to 16 and 17 year old's, then the opposition parties put forward an amendment to the bill for them to be included.
If he then ensures defeat for that amendment, he will be in very deep water once the result is announced,if it is a vote to leave the EU.

Also this referendum is not just about England either arista, it is for the whole UK and we have 4 Nations making up the UK.

If he presides over a result where Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland vote to stay in, the North of England votes narrowly to stay in too but the far South vote to come out heavily.
If he really takes the UK out of the EU against the wishes of the other Nations of the whole UK, he will open up, not a can or worms but the deadliest snakes imaginable.

He will have chaos in the UK,if he only gears this, as you seem to think he should, just to please those from the far South of England who are in effect, the only people who elect him to govt. across the whole UK.

He himself allowed the precedent to be set for those aged 16 and 17, when he allowed the Scots to include them in their independence referendum and therefore those young people's future.

If on the future of the UK in the EU, he now excludes those young people from having their say too in the EU referendum,he will leave himself and his govt. totally discredited as to fairness, and in fact, as to the likely legitimacy of the EU referendum at all.

He is not,as you would maybe like him to be, just Prime Minister of England,he is PM of the whole 4 nations of the UK and if he disregards their wishes as to his referendum, he goes down a very dangerous path indeed,taking the whole UK with him too.

Which if it goes really wrong, will all be firmly laid at his door, no one elses.
He had to approve the wording and method of the independence referendum in Scotland, so Scotland,Wales and N.Ireland should be afforded the same courtesy as to their wishes on this EU referendum too.

As I said, this could yet become his and indeed the UK's. worst nightmare in the whole history of the United Kingdom,(outside of world wars), if he gets just one tiny part of the planning wrong.

[Kizzy]

Who will this benefit in or out?...

'The government has ruled out extending the right to vote in the upcoming EU referendum to all British citizens living abroad, despite a promise made by the Conservative party chairman that it would.

The EU referendum bill, which will be announced after the Queen’s speech on Wednesday, will make clear that the franchise – the people eligible to vote – will be the same as in general elections, which is adults from the age of 18, Irish and Commonwealth citizens resident in the UK, and British citizens who have lived abroad for less than 15 years.'

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...itizens-abroad

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Who will this benefit in or out?...

'The government has ruled out extending the right to vote in the upcoming EU referendum to all British citizens living abroad, despite a promise made by the Conservative party chairman that it would.

The EU referendum bill, which will be announced after the Queen’s speech on Wednesday, will make clear that the franchise – the people eligible to vote – will be the same as in general elections, which is adults from the age of 18, Irish and Commonwealth citizens resident in the UK, and British citizens who have lived abroad for less than 15 years.'

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...itizens-abroad

Kizzy, he has a long way to go on this yet, wait until it comes to parliament for its readings, he will likely wish he had never promised one.

A lot at stake here,it's not like in Harold Wilson's,Labour referendum on the common market.
No matter the result then, there were no Scottish or Welsh assemblies and no threat to the UK as a whole.

With this one however, there could be a massive constitutional crisis if it is a 'no' vote from only one Country of the UK or even moreso just the far South of that Country too.
There are also going to be Conservative MPs fighting for and others against staying in, as there will be from Labour too, although far less wanting out from Labour.

He can have no certainties as to this and the outcome of it either,it is also going to consume politics and his govt. for at least the next 2 years.
If he decides to also hold the referendum earlier than 2017, and gets a vote to leave the EU, again he will be massively criticised for not allowing the EU nations,the promised time to consider his re-negotiations.

As I said, I would hate to be him before this referendum, during it and especially after it.
No wonder his heroine,Margaret Thatcher, wouldn't even ever consider one on any issue.

[bots]

Its going to be interesting. The SNP are pro europe, same with the Welsh. The only party not pro europe are UKIP and we know that they are capable of getting at least 4 million votes.

It will have to be a free vote however (ie parties not whipped) so we will get for and against in every party which equals divides within parties for the next 2 years. If parties are divided on one issue it will spill out into others too. It could easily be a parliament where literally nothing gets done until the referendum is out the way.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Its going to be interesting. The SNP are pro europe, same with the Welsh. The only party not pro europe are UKIP and we know that they are capable of getting at least 4 million votes.

It will have to be a free vote however (ie parties not whipped) so we will get for and against in every party which equals divides within parties for the next 2 years. If parties are divided on one issue it will spill out into others too. It could easily be a parliament where literally nothing gets done until the referendum is out the way.

I think you are right as to how much time this is going to take up as to govt' business.
It isn't likely to be a free vote however as it is govt. policy.
Although now, it would make no difference with Labour supporting a referendum even if he decided to do it that way.

However once it is passed in parliament, then the for and against camps of MPs from both main parties can join forces and campaign freely.

[bots]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

I think you are right as to how much time this is going to take up as to govt' business.
It isn't likely to be a free vote however as it is govt. policy.
Although now, it would make no difference with Labour supporting a referendum even if he decided to do it that way.

However once it is passed in parliament, then the for and against camps of MPs from both main parties can join forces and campaign freely.

Yes, i was meaning in terms of the referendum vote itself, everyone will have to back that a referendum will take place. I just think its going to be very divisive across the whole political spectrum. Its quite uncharted territory really with both sides having such strong views. We know what it did to the conservatives before, when the gloves are off, I can't see it being any different this time.

[arista]

[he is PM of the whole 4 nations of the UK]

Of Course he is PM of the whole of UK

but in Political terms SNP run Scotland
just one MP each of the 3 other parties