[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Jay.

am i the only one wondering why he's being jailed, if he was just a librarian? like he wasn't exactly the brains behind it...

[Samuel.]

In no way deserved.

Bizarre decision, especially 70 years on.

[DemolitionRed]

I am totally with Livia on this one. If people like Susan Pollack or Livia's grandparents think that Oskar Groning should go to prison then who the hell are we to disagree? These people are living victims of men like him. Livia's grandmother still keeps a packed case under her bed; she is still a victim and victims deserve closure.

With war crime there is no statutes of limitation and he is clearly a war criminal.

[Samuel.]

The emotionally invested shouldn't be the ones deciding fair unbiased justice

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by Livia

He had a good, long life, a family, love, a home... all the things the people he helped murder would never have. Now he's going to die peacefully in a warm secure place.

Let's not forget who made the Nazi Party in control in Germany.

I can't believe there is sympathy for this man on here.

It's rare you'll find me agreeing with you.. but in this case, I think you are right. This man has clearly failed to prevent or even oppose the genocide of the Jewish people, and for that he deserves punishment regardless of how long ago it was or how old he is.

[Ammi]

...as someone who isn't emotionally invested, my thoughts are that so much has been placed on 4 years of imprisonment for an old man, when the thing of it is over 70 yrs of freedom for him when he wasn't a 94yr old man, he wasn't actually instrumental in killing anyone himself so 4yrs seems a very lenient but just term...I can't imagine what it would feel like to be a Holocaust survivor or victim's relative... would it bring any sense of 'satisfaction'..?...I doubt it, nothing could do that I would say but at least it's the knowledge that he hasn't lived his whole entire life as a free man and never had to answer to anyone for his part....

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Samuel.

The emotionally invested shouldn't be the ones deciding fair unbiased justice

He had a fair trial in a German court of law, with a prosecution and a defence.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

Admin... he counted the money taken from Jews before they were gassed. You don't know that he didn't have a choice, that's just what you've chosen to believe. I don't think it's pointless, but maybe I have more invested in it that you?

And no, we shouldn't track down people and prosecute them for being Nazis, but if they were complicit in the annihilation of 6 million people because they were Jews, and not just Jews, gays, the disabled, gypsies... then yes, I want to see them punished.

I'm just going on what's written in the story but it sounded, like a lot of people in WW2 Germany, he was just following orders. If there's proof to say otherwise than fair enough but if not then I don't think he should be punished as, like TS said, it's futile and it's not justice.

[JoshBB]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I'm just going on what's written in the story but it sounded, like a lot of people in WW2 Germany, he was just following orders. If there's proof to say otherwise than fair enough but if not then I don't think he should be punished as, like TS said, it's futile and it's not justice.

The court found him guilty, so I would assume there is sufficient evidence. They are professionals and would consider things like that. Unless there was a vested interest, and all of the people in the court would more than likely be checked for that, there would be very little room for bias.

[DemolitionRed]

I don't think the imprisonment matters, its the fact that he's been brought into the public eye and found guilty.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

It's rare you'll find me agreeing with you.. but in this case, I think you are right. This man has clearly failed to prevent or even oppose the genocide of the Jewish people, and for that he deserves punishment regardless of how long ago it was or how old he is.

People who opposed the Nazi regime had a tendency of being killed and their families would most likely meet a similar fate. What could he (or anyone) have done?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

I am totally with Livia on this one. If people like Susan Pollack or Livia's grandparents think that Oskar Groning should go to prison then who the hell are we to disagree? These people are living victims of men like him. Livia's grandmother still keeps a packed case under her bed; she is still a victim and victims deserve closure.

With war crime there is no statutes of limitation and he is clearly a war criminal.

I don't disagree that he should have gone to jail, like I said I'm not a sympathiser and I don't really care if he dies in a chair in a cell or dies in a chair in a house. Or in a chair at all for that matter. He's almost certainly going to die within the next few years and I doubt he's out clubbing or climbing mountains at the moment which is what makes it all seem - to me - sort of irrelevant. Is it harsh of me to say that I sort of consider anyone over 90 to be, basically, already dead? Probably sort of is, but I probably sort of do... Which I guess informs a lot of my opinion on this.

Then again, if it does give people who have suffered some sort of closure, even if it's only a little, then that at least is a positive side effect of it all. I'm just very (very, very) skeptical that that has anything at all to do with the reasons for his trial and conviction, which smacks of "making some sort of point for some reason". A bit of showmanship rather than actual justice.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

People who opposed the Nazi regime had a tendency of being killed and their families would most likely meet a similar fate. What could he (or anyone) have done?

It's that old cognitive dissonance rearing it's head again; people like to think that if they were in the same situation they would retain their morals, THEY would refuse, THEY would resist, THEY could never do something so terrible no matter what the consequences of standing up and saying "no".

It's a lie. They would keep their mouths shut, put on a uniform like everyone else, and kill whoever they were told to kill.

People can't or won't believe that and so we have monsters.

[Samuel.]

Originally Posted by Livia

He had a fair trial in a German court of law, with a prosecution and a defence.

It was directed at those arguing that if imprisonment is what the victims and their families want then who is to say otherwise.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by JoshBB

It's rare you'll find me agreeing with you.. but in this case, I think you are right. This man has clearly failed to prevent or even oppose the genocide of the Jewish people, and for that he deserves punishment regardless of how long ago it was or how old he is.

what would you have had him do?

[Samuel.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's that old cognitive dissonance rearing it's head again; people like to think that if they were in the same situation they would retain their morals, THEY would refuse, THEY would resist, THEY could never do something so terrible no matter what the consequences of standing up and saying "no".

It's a lie. They would keep their mouths shut, put on a uniform like everyone else, and kill whoever they were told to kill.

People can't or won't believe that and so we have monsters.

Very true.

[Shaun]

I don't really see what it's meant to achieve. He's practically dead already, it's not going to heal any wounds and he's not directly responsible for any of it but I'm not going to lose sleep over his situation.

[Livia]

My Grandmother is also in her 90s. She's far from dead despite the start in life she had. She still ballroom dances, shops, enjoys her family... unlike 6 million who weren't so lucky. Her life is as valid as anyone else's. This man, although also in his 90s, has received justice at long last. He was an officer, not an ordinary solider, and was found guilty in a German court of law guilty of being accessory to the murder of 300,000 Jews so all the supposition that he wasn't responsible and was only following orders is, in my opinion, apologetic hogwash. Never forget. Never forget. Never forget.

[MTVN]

I do think he has some responsibility. Saying he was 'just following orders' takes away from the fact that he presumably did very much believe in the Nazi cause. There's nothing unusual about that: large swathes of the German population did. It goes beyond psychological defects and deference to authority - this was an ideology that enamoured millions of people and that they were utterly convinced of. He was a cog in the machine and so I do understand the argument in favour of jailing him. I think he does as well really - he has accepted all through the trial that he bears a moral responsibility for being swept along in the Nazi vision. My qualms are more just about whether this is really in the public interest and whether it's not just some attempt to make up for those who played a much bigger part and yet escaped justice.

But, like Shaun, I won't lose sleep over it.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I do think he has some responsibility. Saying he was 'just following orders' takes away from the fact that he presumably did very much believe in the Nazi cause. There's nothing unusual about that: large swathes of the German population did. It goes beyond psychological defects and deference to authority - this was an ideology that enamoured millions of people and that they were utterly convinced of. He was a cog in the machine and so I do understand the argument in favour of jailing him. I think he does as well really - he has accepted all through the trial that he bears a moral responsibility for being swept along in the Nazi vision. My qualms are more just about whether this is really in the public interest and whether it's not just some attempt to make up for those who played a much bigger part and yet escaped justice.

But, like Shaun, I won't lose sleep over it.

Many war criminals have been jailed over the years as their deeds have been dragged into the light. Many were executed, and rightly in my opinion. And yes, you're right, the German people were swept along with it. The treatment of Jews by the ordinary German people even outside the camps was a blight on their history and one that Germany has gone to great lengths to try to put right.

[user104658]

Well exactly, and I have a suspicion that this is more about Germany doing some "final bits of putting things right" with the last few scrappy officers they can find alive in order to bookend the war and go forward with a laundered reputation once the war passes out of living memory. I get that there are still a few surviving people from that era but my original point was that, in a couple of decades time, there won't be. That means that Germany only has a few years to squeeze in a few final convictions for brownie points. This guy was barely out of his teens during the war and is now pushing 100... The fact is, there simply aren't any of the real ghouls of WW2 left to convict. They were either caught and tried long ago or they've already lived out their lives free and died.

This guy, if you read the articles, really can't be described as much more than a minor cog in the SS machine. Does that make him an innocent? No, it does sound like he was self-serving and at the very least took advantage of a "privileged" posting even if he is being truthful about not being 100% on board with it. But it does marginally make him little more than a scapegoat for the really awful ones who are long gone.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Well exactly, and I have a suspicion that this is more about Germany doing some "final bits of putting things right" with the last few scrappy officers they can find alive in order to bookend the war and go forward with a laundered reputation once the war passes out of living memory. I get that there are still a few surviving people from that era but my original point was that, in a couple of decades time, there won't be. That means that Germany only has a few years to squeeze in a few final convictions for brownie points. This guy was barely out of his teens during the war and is now pushing 100... The fact is, there simply aren't any of the real ghouls of WW2 left to convict. They were either caught and tried long ago or they've already lived out their lives free and died.

This guy, if you read the articles, really can't be described as much more than a minor cog in the SS machine. Does that make him an innocent? No, it does sound like he was self-serving and at the very least took advantage of a "privileged" posting even if he is being truthful about not being 100% on board with it. But it does marginally make him little more than a scapegoat for the really awful ones who are long gone.

I understand that this cynical viewpoint is your own opinion TS. I disagree with it 100%. I've said all I have to say about it.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's that old cognitive dissonance rearing it's head again; people like to think that if they were in the same situation they would retain their morals, THEY would refuse, THEY would resist, THEY could never do something so terrible no matter what the consequences of standing up and saying "no".

It's a lie. They would keep their mouths shut, put on a uniform like everyone else, and kill whoever they were told to kill.

People can't or won't believe that and so we have monsters.

.....the absolute truth of it is that some people would do whatever was asked of them and some people wouldn't do it, which is why through history we have people reacting differently in extreme and extraordinary situations...and by your own reasoning then, you have no idea how you would feel yourself about his sentencing unless you were personally touched in your life by his being a 'small cog'...would you still think it was pointless after such a long time that he be answerable for his part...in as much certainty that I can ever have of anything in life, I know that a life of living and knowledge of being a part of that would be far worse for me than a nothingness of death...

...everyone in the Nazi regime was answerable to Hitler so if no one 'could help' what their role was, then no one was answerable to any war crime, even if they let the gas into gas chambers themselves, surely..?...but that's not the case is it because every part of that cog played a part in mass genocide...Oskar Gröning's part and what he was 'forced' to do/'had no choice' was only over for a few years of his life, he's had over 70yrs since then (and through his own free choice..)...to have made himself answerable and if he had done that, then maybe at 94yrs of age, he would be a free man and with his family...I've read up a little bit about him and after the war he took full advantage of his position in the Nazi Party to gain back his old job and to prosper from there, refusing to acknowledge anything he did even to his own family...he chose to 'hide' and to forget/his own free choice and all for his own self preservation...nothing 'given back' to a race of Jews in his conscience for anything he did in his war years....no signs of 'I'm sorry..'....


..I'd like to think that this sentencing is not just the court's final bits of putting things right but an acknowledgement that he could not be left unanswerable and he could not go without some punishment, regardless of his age because as I say, he very much had a choice through his life of accepting his accountability without it being forced on him...and of course he's not a monster, he's every bit a human being which is why also we should never forget, we should never forget what some humans are capable of and we should never forget that they feel they can escape accountability because they are old...

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Ammi

.....the absolute truth of it is that some people would do whatever was asked of them and some people wouldn't do it, which is why through history we have people reacting differently in extreme and extraordinary situations...and by your own reasoning then, you have no idea how you would feel yourself about his sentencing unless you were personally touched in your life by his being a 'small cog'...would you still think it was pointless after such a long time that he be answerable for his part...in as much certainty that I can ever have of anything in life, I know that a life of living and knowledge of being a part of that would be far worse for me than a nothingness of death...

...everyone in the Nazi regime was answerable to Hitler so if no one 'could help' what their role was, then no one was answerable to any war crime, even if they let the gas into gas chambers themselves, surely..?...but that's not the case is it because every part of that cog played a part in mass genocide...Oskar Gröning's part and what he was 'forced' to do/'had no choice' was only over for a few years of his life, he's had over 70yrs since then (and through his own free choice..)...to have made himself answerable and if he had done that, then maybe at 94yrs of age, he would be a free man and with his family...I've read up a little bit about him and after the war he took full advantage of his position in the Nazi Party to gain back his old job and to prosper from there, refusing to acknowledge anything he did even to his own family...he chose to 'hide' and to forget/his own free choice and all for his own self preservation...nothing 'given back' to a race of Jews in his conscience for anything he did in his war years....no signs of 'I'm sorry..'....


..I'd like to think that this sentencing is not just the court's final bits of putting things right but an acknowledgement that he could not be left unanswerable and he could not go without some punishment, regardless of his age because as I say, he very much had a choice through his life of accepting his accountability without it being forced on him...and of course he's not a monster, he's every bit a human being which is why also we should never forget, we should never forget what some humans are capable of and we should never forget that they feel they can escape accountability because they are old...

Hasn't he openly talked about his experiences in the last couple of decades though as a way to combat holocaust denial? That is something at least

[joeysteele]

Personally I fail to now see what imprisoning someone who is 94 is going to achieve rather than just vengeance,rather than justice.
I said earlier,my Grandfather who was in the war, said much the same to me about things like this as Toy Soldier was saying.
That most German soldiers were doing what they were told to do,had they not they would have been liekly killed and their families suffer too.
Just as,as my Grandfather said, all soldiers in the war were obeying orders for their Nations heads too.
My Grandfather said he never actually wanted to go and kill anyone but had to or be punished himself or killed himself.
That is the futility and price of so called 'glory'.
He was sickened for the rest of his life by what he came across and was unfurled as to what the Germans had done to so many people, Jews,disabled and gay people and Gypsies.

Having said that and it is my position still to be slightly more with Toy Soldier on this one,there is of course the other side of it that I can equally see and therein Livia makes really strong points too.
Livia speaks, and with authority, for all who lost many in the holocaust and those who almost did lose friends and families too.
Whether some did get freed eventually and could be considered the lucky ones from this horrific nightmare,those people freed will have certainly lost friends and family at some point during the barbaric and inhuman actions of Germany.
It is then understandable the strong line from Livia, especially as to her own Grandmother too.

So while we can look at this and for some of us, see no point in these trials or imprisonments,it has to be equally taken on board that those who lost so many are fully entitled to some recognition of a fact than such inhuman and heartless actions against other human beings can never be reconciled or indeed forgiven really.
Also as Livia says, the World should never,never ever forget.
I hope we don't ever forget.