[Ammi]

...last post..(I think.....)...Miley has every right to make comment in as much as any of us do or any other celebrity does...as Robert De Niro, Tom Hanks, Arnold Schwarzenegger or anyone else who have been offended and worried by what he said....we don't know anyone's moral compass more than anyone else's and a stage act/a persona is no indication at all...it's simply that/a stage act..and it's invited of anything it involves...Donald Trump showed no respect, no consideration for females in what he said...he inferred an abuse of power that he saw as a 'perk'....he hasn't denied that, those are his words and how he said those words....how he's excused that offence and disregard of females he showed though...?....by offending males as well in inferring it was just typical 'male locker room talk'....he offends my granddad, my father, my brothers, my husband, my sons and I would think that Withano's offence and stance on this is because he offends him as well...and that was his 'excuse' to make it all seem less worrying....that we're to be assured and feel fine because many males find sexual assault a source of amusement while having their 'mentalk'....as Tom Hanks said, he offends everyone whether male or female and that's all he could think of to 'excuse/explain'...

[Ammi]

..I was going to edited that just to say that Miley is a young American voting female and that's all she is in her entitlement to her views on Trump's morality...nothing else is relevant...anyways I didn't do the edit because I just had a little mini power cut and lost connection...darn you Kizzy, you're a witch.....

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I was going to edited that just to say that Miley is a young American voting female and that's all she is in her entitlement to her views on Trump's morality...nothing else is relevant...anyways I didn't do the edit because I just had a little mini power cut and lost connection...darn you Kizzy, you're a witch.....

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...last post..(I think.....)...Miley has every right to make comment in as much as any of us do or any other celebrity does...as Robert De Niro, Tom Hanks, Arnold Schwarzenegger or anyone else who have been offended and worried by what he said....we don't know anyone's moral compass more than anyone else's and a stage act/a persona is no indication at all...it's simply that/a stage act..and it's invited of anything it involves...Donald Trump showed no respect, no consideration for females in what he said...he inferred an abuse of power that he saw as a 'perk'....he hasn't denied that, those are his words and how he said those words....how he's excused that offence and disregard of females he showed though...?....by offending males as well in inferring it was just typical 'male locker room talk'....he offends my granddad, my father, my brothers, my husband, my sons and I would think that Withano's offence and stance on this is because he offends him as well...and that was his 'excuse' to make it all seem less worrying....that we're to be assured and feel fine because many males find sexual assault a source of amusement while having their 'mentalk'....as Tom Hanks said, he offends everyone whether male or female and that's all he could think of to 'excuse/explain'...

Two things Ammi - I do not disagree with any of which you write about Trump. My post was not debating the rights and wrongs of Trump being any of those things, my post is about the credibility and motives of just SOME of those who are jumping onto the 'anti-Trump' bandwagon.

Secondly, I respect your opinion on Miley Cyrus, but I can never agree with it.

Her 'twerking' and a lot of her other calculated displays and comments, have been executed OUTSIDE of any stage performance, but always well publicised because of the notoriety value, and I cannot recall any other celebrity who has spoken out about Trump ever having indulged in similar 'self-promotional' morally questionable behaviour.

I firmly believe that, unlike De Niro, Tom Hanks et al, Cyrus is cynically seizing yet another opportunity to 'jump on a bandwagon' for her own gain - making herself more popular to raise her 'Marquee Value' for example.

Incidentally, being an 'offended male' does not mitigate or excuse Withano's offensive comments in respect of myself.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Two things Ammi - I do not disagree with any of which you write about Trump. My post was not debating the rights and wrongs of Trump being any of those things, my post is about the credibility and motives of just SOME of those who are jumping onto the 'anti-Trump' bandwagon.

Secondly, I respect your opinion on Miley Cyrus, but I can never agree with it.

Her 'twerking' and a lot of her other calculated displays and comments, have been executed OUTSIDE of any stage performance, but always well publicised because of the notoriety value, and I cannot recall any other celebrity who has spoken out about Trump ever having indulged in similar 'self-promotional' morally questionable behaviour.

I firmly believe that, unlike De Niro, Tom Hanks et al, Cyrus is cynically seizing yet another opportunity to 'jump on a bandwagon' for her own gain - making herself more popular to raise her 'Marquee Value' for example.

Incidentally, being an 'offended male' does not mitigate or excuse Withano's offensive comments in respect of myself.

...I guess that I just don't find sexual in music performances as anything that would question a moral compass off the stage...she may have had controversy in other areas of her life I know but she's very young and tried to find her own adult identity apart from her dad...but I would still feel that wouldn't be a question on her morals, but more had some confusing times in life...if she was jumping on a bandwagon, she's only able to do so because Trump has enabled her to by what he said.....he made the bandwagon for her to be able to jump on and anyone else who may feel the need for a wagon ride...I think the thought process as well could be that if those with 'lesser moral compasses' find Trump offensive ..that's really just how offensive and worrying he is../his conversation was...even Miley was offended for goodness sake.....

[Withano]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I am grossly offended by your uncalled for allegations that this thread perpetuates 'rape culture' AND your allusions that I am some 'menalist with an agenda' because there is NOTHING which I have written that would justify such disgusting comments.

You see Withano - your posts seem full of anger, perhaps because you detest Trump with a vengeance, but with blind hatred, objectivity is all too often lost.

You are NOT really addressing the points which I am ACTUALLY making in my posts, but more rather addressing what you THINK I am saying in my posts, and I believe that is because you have lost emotional detachment because of the subject matter.

You need to calm down, read and absorb what I am saying, and not allow your own prejudices to superimpose what you angrily feel I am saying onto my actual words.

I have NEVER posted to court popularity, only posted what I believe, and I have all too often been unfairly 'hung, drawn, and quartered' on here as a result.

But I am a great believer in ALL aspects of Freedom - Freedom Of Speech AND Freedom of Choice being two very important types.

I have the Freedom of Speech to open a thread on any subject I want to, and you have The Freedom of Choice NOT to subscribe to it.

I suggest Withano, if this thread upsets you so much, and you deem it so "fecking stupid" and "grim", then do not subscribe to it.

As it stands 100% of people posting here have taken an issue with or disregarded your words, perhaps you need to reread them and think about what message you're trying to convey and what message youve actually conveyed. My 'hatred' of Trump has little to do with your grim little thread regardless of how you try to defend it. (I dont care for him enough to hate him, he'll be irrelevant again by december)

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Withano

As it stands 100% of people posting here have taken an issue with or disregarded your words, perhaps you need to reread them and think about what message you're trying to convey and what message youve actually conveyed. My 'hatred' of Trump has little to do with your grim little thread regardless of how you try to defend it. (I dont care for him enough to hate him, he'll be irrelevant again by december)

This 'grim little thread' seems to have a great attraction for you though doesn't it? What is this, your 6th post on here?

I do not worry about how many members 'take issue' with what I write - that is their prerogative on a forum, and I have already stated that I do not falsely post B.S. to be popular, only what I BELIEVE to be true.

Perhaps others who may AGREE with my view dare not post for fear of losing 'friends' and becoming 'unpopular'?

It DOES happen quite regularly on here.

I REALLY could not give a toss about Donald Trump per se but I DO care about the unfairness and injustice in that big old real world, and I will post whenever I see deliberate and unfair forces at work in the US Presidential race - just the same as I have always done on other threads.

I saw an internet article last week about Yoko Ono supposedly owning up to having an affair with Hilary Clinton, but I did a little research and concluded that the article was politically motivated B.S to discredit Clinton.

I was about to post on that, but some other member beat me to it.

You think what you want, but stop getting so personal with me.

Oh, and better cut out of this 'grim' thread now before I continue posting on what I believe is more unfair politically motivated B.S. allegations against Trump.

[Ammi]

...(in fairness to Kirk..)...I actually think that I can see where you're coming from with this, Kirk...that if Miley would use sexual assault against females and what Trump said then where is her moral compass because she's just 'feeding' the same thing as Trump is and trivialising sexual assault...(which is what you believe that it was said to further a career and for personal attention..)...I just think it's a little off base to equate...Trumps whole position now is capitalising on his own celebrity and his own self gain in his controversy his celebrity has given him...I don't think for one moment that he would be where he is now and a strong contender for Presidency had he been guy on the street and unknown anti establishment....but he's fed so many negatives and prejudices, nurtured them and encouraged them for his own gain and his own power in that gain...

Originally Posted by Withano

As it stands 100% of people posting here have taken an issue with or disregarded your words, perhaps you need to reread them and think about what message you're trying to convey and what message youve actually conveyed. My 'hatred' of Trump has little to do with your grim little thread regardless of how you try to defend it. (I dont care for him enough to hate him, he'll be irrelevant again by december)

..I don't agree Withano..(sadly..)..I don't think that the prejudice and negative feelings through exploiting fears in people can just subside like that, it's not really how I see it works anyway....once surfaced, these things can't be controlled and don't just disappear...that's the difference with Trump...win or lose, he's left a legacy of intolerance and prejudice that won't just go with him (I fear..)...whereas if Hilary loses, then no more establishment ... for another 4 years anyway...the establishment legacy that she represents will diminish for at least a short term...his is far more far reaching in what's evoked in some through their fears and frustrations....

[bots]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I don't agree Withano..(sadly..)..I don't think that the prejudice and negative feelings through exploiting fears in people can just subside like that, it's not really how I see it works anyway....once surfaced, these things can't be controlled and don't just disappear...that's the difference with Trump...win or lose, he's left a legacy of intolerance and prejudice that won't just go with him (I fear..)...whereas if Hilary loses, then no more establishment ... for another 4 years anyway...the establishment legacy that she represents will diminish for at least a short term...his is far more far reaching in what's evoked in some through their fears and frustrations....

This I very much agree with. If Hilary wins this time round and the establishment don't learn their lesson, then its just storing up issues for the next election. As abhorrent as Trump is, it could be someone worse next time. The bottom line, ignore voters at your peril.

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...(in fairness to Kirk..)...I actually think that I can see where you're coming from with this, Kirk...that if Miley would use sexual assault against females and what Trump said then where is her moral compass because she's just 'feeding' the same thing as Trump is and trivialising sexual assault...(which is what you believe that it was said to further a career and for personal attention..)...I just think it's a little off base to equate...Trumps whole position no is capitalising on his on celebrity and his own self gain in his controversy his celebrity has given him...I don't think for one moment that he would be where he is now and a strong contender for Presidency had he been guy on the street and unknown anti establishment....but he's fed so many negatives and prejudices, nurtured them and encouraged them for his own gain and his own power in that gain...

Yeah, if there is a comparison to be made, it's between Miley and Trump. He fed into male stereotypes of male ego and popular chauvinistic attitudes and activities of the time to control those around him...

I don't approve of female celebrities grabbing onto other fans in a sexual manner--consensual or not--because as it were, a man grabbing onto a fan in that manner--consensual or not--would go over very poorly. I just don't think it sets a good example... I understand female empowerment and all that crap, but it's not right to hold a man to an elevated standard of decency and yet a woman is not held to the same standard... that's not equality.

[Tom4784]

The difference between Miley Cyrus' tours and Trump's victims are consent.I pity anyone who can't tell the difference between these two cases or think that Miley's antics on tour somehow diminishes her opinion.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

The difference between Miley Cyrus' tours and Trump's victims are consent.I pity anyone who can't tell the difference between these two cases or think that Miley's antics on tour somehow diminishes her opinion.

Consent? How many times do I have to state in the Queen's English, that I am referring SPECIFICALLY and ONLY, to those women who ALLOWED Trump to grope them?

There is no need to pity me then, because I CAN most certainly tell the difference between those two cases - AND, just as importantly, I can see a parallel between those two cases.

Finally, I do not base my opinion solely upon just 'Miley's antics on tour' but also on her other well publicised antics off tour.

And yes - based upon what I BELIEVE and what I have a RIGHT to believe, I do think Miley's 'antics' diminishes her opinion and her credibility, besides giving me cause to question her motives - which WAS really the point of my post.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Consent? How many times do I have to state in the Queen's English, that I am referring SPECIFICALLY and ONLY, to those women who ALLOWED Trump to grope them?

There is no need to pity me then, because I CAN most certainly tell the difference between those two cases - AND, just as importantly, I can see a parallel between those two cases.

Finally, I do not base my opinion solely upon just 'Miley's antics on tour' but also on her other well publicised antics off tour.

And yes - based upon what I BELIEVE and what I have a RIGHT to believe, I do think Miley's 'antics' diminishes her opinion and her credibility, besides giving me cause to question her motives - which WAS really the point of my post.

Calm down Kirk, no reason to get irate.

Most of your post is (not so subtly) suggesting that Trump's victims are fame hungry and complicit in his actions, in the words of LT, where's your proof of this? It sounds like victim blaming to me.

Your thoughts on Miley are problematic. Is the opinion of any woman that dares to embrace their own sexuality somehow less valid because of it? Does this extend to men too or is it just women?

Her antics do not make her opinion less valid as the quote you used was as follows.

'“Maybe it’s because of the villainous vibes that surround power and the poor examples of how too many leaders abuse it. Yes, that’s for Donald Trump.”'

She's talking about people in power abusing their positions so how does the fact that she CONSENTED to people touching her two years ago discredit that opinion? It doesn't make much sense at all.

The victims of Donald Trump didn't consent to his alleged abuse so how is Miley speaking out about it in anyway hypocritical just because she embraces her own sexuality? It's just downright silly.

[bots]

I don't take notice of Miley unless it is for her acting or singing, at which point I judge her on her particular performance. Similarly, I wouldn't be interested in what a weather man had to say on the economy. One persons opinion or thoughts on a subject are just that, nothing more, nothing less

[Jessica.]

I'm really disappointed in you, Kirk.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Jessica.

I'm really disappointed in you, Kirk.

I'm sorry Jessica, really I am, but I am only presenting what I see as the Truth.

There is a covert political campaign of lies and false allegations to discredit Trump, and NO Presidential or other election should be won in such a way.

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I'm sorry Jessica, really I am, but I am only presenting what I see as the Truth.

There is a covert political campaign of lies and false allegations to discredit Trump, and NO Presidential or other election should be won in such a way.

A person like that deserves every bit of backlash and truthful public allegation against him. If you can't see any reason for that then you're a lost cause.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I'm sorry Jessica, really I am, but I am only presenting what I see as the Truth.

There is a covert political campaign of lies and false allegations to discredit Trump, and NO Presidential or other election should be won in such a way.

The campaign is no longer covert after Trump decided to mention Bill Clintons name and rape in he same sentence at the 2nd debate. What exactly did Trump expect after that? As for Lies and false allegation - where do we start with Trump? An interviewer recently said that during interviews with Trump they should stop the interview every 30 seconds and just say 'But Mr Trump you're lying' chances are he will be.

There is no comparison between these two scenarios.

[Maru]

Is this thread specifically about Miley Cyrus or sexual assault victims? Where is the comparison being made?

The very IDEA that some avaricious, fame-desperate women without morals will FREELY allow perverts to grope them and grab their pussies and breasts and private parts. It's 'sexual assault' whether those women were complicit or not.

If it's just this point, then I don't really agree. It's consensual contact akin to an exotic dancer imo.

[Mokka]

Originally Posted by Maru

Is this thread specifically about Miley Cyrus or sexual assault victims? Where is the comparison being made?

This

The next thing we will be hearing is that if Miley Cyrus did get sexually attacked by a fan... this is proof she asked for it

[Maru]

Originally Posted by Mokka

This

The next thing we will be hearing is that if Miley Cyrus did get sexually attacked by a fan... this is proof she asked for it

If this thread were about Madonna grabbing her fans tops on-stage and exposing bare breasts, we might have a topic, but I think in this case Miley Cyrus is pretty much as-advertised so no wrong no foul...

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Mokka

This

The next thing we will be hearing is that if Miley Cyrus did get sexually attacked by a fan... this is proof she asked for it

I did not expect this from you Mokka, and nowhere in any thread ever, have I posted anything to warrant anyone posting such a comment.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Maru

Is this thread specifically about Miley Cyrus or sexual assault victims? Where is the comparison being made?



If it's just this point, then I don't really agree. It's consensual contact akin to an exotic dancer imo.

Can you clarify just what part of my posts you are not agreeing with Maru please?

[Jessica.]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Can you clarify just what part of my posts you are not agreeing with Maru please?

So if you are not making any points for or against anyone, why did you make this thread? You clearly have some kind of bias against people who disagree with that disgusting man, so please make a point if you are so bothered by everyone making assumptions.

[Mokka]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Can you clarify just what part of my posts you are not agreeing with Maru please?

The premise Kirk....that there is any correlation between Miley's on stage dance routine.... and women who are coming forward to accuse Donald Trump of sexual assault.
Miley is a singer songwriter....not a presidential candidate. No one wants to see her running the country either.