[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Firewire

Even though it's by choice?

What about Sikh men who wear turbans? Are they oppressed?

That seems quite naive as it is clear that when people are subject to both religous and cultural indoctrination from birth, with significant opposition to any deviation from such beliefs, it is extremely unlikely that 'choice' was ever a option in reality.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Firewire

Do you think nuns opting to wear religious dress as well as covering their heads is oppression?

That is a ridiculous analogy. Clearly becoming a nunn is a choice, but knowing how oppressive certain religions can be towards women casts considerable doubt as to how much 'choice' women really have to cover themselves.

This really annoys me because there would probably be uproar on here if gay or black men were forced/conditioned (amounts to the same) to wear such restrictive clothing, but when many men in particular, appear to have such an apathetic reaction to women having to do so it reeks of sexist undertones to me.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

That is a ridiculous analogy. Clearly becoming a nunn is a choice, but knowing how oppressive certain religions can be towards women casts considerable doubt as to how much 'choice' women really have to cover themselves.

This really annoys me because there would probably be uproar on here if gay or black men were forced/conditioned (amounts to the same) to wear such restrictive clothing, but when many men in particular, appear to have such an apathetic reaction to women having to do so it reeks of sexist undertones to me.

And what of women who choose to wear the Hijab or Burka? Are they, ironically considering your stance, not allowed to make that choice for themselves?

The only ridiculous analogy in this thread thus far has been yours about the gays. It doesn't really make a lick of sense.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

And what of women who choose to wear the Hijab or Burka? Are they, ironically considering your stance, not allowed to make that choice for themselves?

The only ridiculous analogy in this thread thus far has been yours about the gays. It doesn't really make a lick of sense.

Of course it does! Again you show a lack of concern for the detrimental effects of such effects of religous/cultural oppression of women and constantly try to suggest no such conditioning could possibly be occurring in Britain.

Suggesting or agreeing that there is any correlation between the wearing of a nunns' habit and a woman in a burka is absurd. One is clearly based on choice. The other is not so clear.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Of course it does! Again you show a lack of concern for the detrimental effects of such effects of religous/cultural oppression of women and constantly try to suggest no such conditioning could possibly be occurring in Britain.

Suggesting or agreeing that there is any correlation between the wearing of a nunns' habit and a woman in a burka is absurd. One is clearly based on choice. The other is not so clear.

I believe in freedom of choice, that means accepting choices that I might not agree with. I'm not going to make out that the Hijab/burka is evil and women shouldn't wear it even if they want to while accepting religious practices that are similar but are okay because I don't mind the religion in question. That's hypocritical.

I'm against oppression, I think this story is disgusting but I'm not ignorant enough to pretend that this is reflective of millions of people and their beliefs. There are plenty of muslims who choose not to wear a hijab and they have as much right to do so as muslims that choose to don the hijab.

It's ignorant and downright patronising to act like most muslim women don't have a choice in the matter.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

That is a ridiculous analogy. Clearly becoming a nunn is a choice, but knowing how oppressive certain religions can be towards women casts considerable doubt as to how much 'choice' women really have to cover themselves.

This really annoys me because there would probably be uproar on here if gay or black men were forced/conditioned (amounts to the same) to wear such restrictive clothing, but when many men in particular, appear to have such an apathetic reaction to women having to do so it reeks of sexist undertones to me.

You are right but, I wouldn't deny there is also conditioning in cathlocism with girls brought up to believe the ultimate sacrifice of purity is to become a nun. In some families this is something to aspire to.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by jaxie

You are right but, I wouldn't deny there is also conditioning in cathlocism with girls brought up to believe the ultimate sacrifice of purity is to become a nun. In some families this is something to aspire to.

Fair point. I do agree with you that it is not about the choice of what to wear per se but the reasons behind the wearing of certain types of garments for women in relation to so-called 'choice'.

[jennyjuniper]

Originally Posted by Firewire

Do you think nuns opting to wear religious dress as well as covering their heads is oppression?

No because it's their choice. If they tried to force others to wear habits it would be wrong. As far as the burqa debate goes, if women want to wear it fine, but if they are forced to wear it because islamic men find the sight of womens hair disturbing, then that's wrong. Islamic men should learn to control their own impulses instead of blaming women for showing their hair or skin.

[Tom4784]

Obviously wrong and I hope the teachers face harsh punishments for it but I do agree with Withano about hypocrisy.

I never really understood how anyone would simply take a caning though, if a teacher ever tried to hit me, I'd stamp on their ****ing throat.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Obviously wrong and I hope the teachers face harsh punishments for it but I do agree with Withano about hypocrisy.

I never really understood how anyone would simply take a caning though, if a teacher ever tried to hit me, I'd stamp on their ****ing throat.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

If anyone tried to pressurise me into wearing a burka or any such restrictive clothing I would do much the same as an adult.

But no doubt if I had been subjected to family/social pressure and 'spoken/unspoken' threat from birth I guess I would have pretty much been conditioned into believing I actually had free choice at that stage.

Social condioning is very strong.

Those that cannot acknowledge that are socially deaf, dumb and blind.

Hackney is home to a large ultra-Orthodox Jewish Charedi community, which is regarded as insular and practices a strict 19th-century interpretation of the faith.

Engagement with the secular world is for many deeply taboo.

The Independent has spent months investigating illegal schools in the borough.

Those forced to attend illegal schools have reported that they are not taught English or anything secular so they can instead focus on studying the Torah.

One former pupil at an illegal schoool in Hackney told The Independent he was regularly subject to “physical and psychological abuse”.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7422526.html

[Northern Monkey]

It's a shame.Egypt was one of the freer Muslim countries.When i was there many Muslim women were just dressed in normal jeans and t-shirts etc.I saw more women in Bradford wearing the full mailbox suit than in Cairo.That was just before all the major trouble started over there.It was an amazing place to visit.
Let's hope it does'nt start going in the direction of Saudi Arabia.How do you change a country's ideology?Brainwash the kids.Seems like they are trying to radicalise the future generations.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

It's a shame.Egypt was one of the freer Muslim countries.When i was there many Muslim women were just dressed in normal jeans and t-shirts etc.I saw more women in Bradford wearing the full mailbox suit than in Cairo.That was just before all the major trouble started over there.It was an amazing place to visit.
Let's hope it does'nt start going in the direction of Saudi Arabia.How do you change a country's ideology?Brainwash the kids.Seems like they are trying to radicalise the future generations.

Is this in reference to the meme from the BNP that found it's way onto facebook to be shared by 1000s?

Yes we really must guard against brainwashing kids....

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Is this in reference to the meme from the BNP that found it's way onto facebook to be shared by 1000s?

Yes we really must guard against brainwashing kids....

So are you stating that one wrong justifies another?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

So are you stating that one wrong justifies another?

I'm highlighting how easy it is to influence people.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Is this in reference to the meme from the BNP that found it's way onto facebook to be shared by 1000s?

Yes we really must guard against brainwashing kids....

Nope...Well maybe but I wouldn't know.I don't get my analogies from the BNP.These women just remind me of walking post boxes when they're in the full kit.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Nope...Well maybe but I wouldn't know.I don't get my analogies from the BNP.These women just remind me of walking post boxes when they're in the full kit.

Obviously you do, it just didn't register ( that's what brainwashing is btw)

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Obviously you do, it just didn't register ( that's what brainwashing is btw)

Well....I don't go on Facebook,I don't look at BNP propaganda and i don't get exposed to anything related to the BNP.So it's obviously not just me who sees the resemblance.

[Tom4784]

There's no realistic way for the UK to become an extremist country. It is just pure hysteria that is based on neither reality nor fact.

Extremism must be stamped out but to act like an entire religion is the enemy is pure ignorance and will only accentuate the problem of extremists, not solve it.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

There's no realistic way for the UK to become an extremist country. It is just pure hysteria that is based on neither reality nor fact.

Extremism must be stamped out but to act like an entire religion is the enemy is pure ignorance and will only accentuate the problem of extremists, not solve it.

There is much danger in complacency.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by jaxie

There is much danger in complacency.

Blind hysteria is much more dangerous than a near impossibility.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Blind hysteria is much more dangerous than a near impossibility.

I don't think a near impossility is very realistic. If enough Muslims come here and populate at their usual rates, given the low birth rate in the indigenous population, simple maths can do the rest.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I don't think a near impossility is very realistic. If enough Muslims come here and populate at their usual rates, given the low birth rate in the indigenous population, simple maths can do the rest.

It's basically an impossibility for a takeover to occur like that. Like I said either in this topic or the other one. For there to be enough extremists to make a difference through sheer numbers, everyone (including most muslims) aside from those with extreme views would need to not breed for a crap ton of years to balance things out and that's not going to happen.

The fact you think the UK has a low indigenous birth rate soeaks for itself.

Nothing but islamaphobia and hysteria.

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Blind hysteria is much more dangerous than a near impossibility.

No hysteria here, also not a believer in fairies.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

There's no realistic way for the UK to become an extremist country. It is just pure hysteria that is based on neither reality nor fact.

Extremism must be stamped out but to act like an entire religion is the enemy is pure ignorance and will only accentuate the problem of extremists, not solve it.

For my part Dezzy, I have never stated that ALL Muslims are the 'enemy' - only the very real and growing number of EXTREMIST Muslims.

I even SPECIFICALLY included the phrase; "ISLAMIC EXTREMISM' in the OP Title to ensure differentiation between the two.