[Northern Monkey]

For prisons the only solution is to have a transgender wing somewhere imo.A transgender will be bullied or worse in a male or female prison.Female prisoners won't want go in the showers or toilets with a man and a male to female transgender wont want to go in the showers with a load of sexually frustrated male prisoners.

[Tom4784]

He's done it for the wrong reasons (to spite Obama and try to undo everything he did in his administration) but it's not entirely wrong. It's a difficult issue but I do agree with Vicky that it's a matter of sex and not gender, as soon as they transition then it's fair game.

The solution before that would be a third bathroom if the transgender students aren't comfortable with the bathroom of their birth gender.

[Alf]

I've decided, I want my own bathroom just for me. Every establishment should now build a new bathroom just for me, and if they don't, they're sexist, misogynist pigs, who are against progressive values.



I've changed my mind, I just want to use the female bathroom, so I can have a good perv, because that's what I've now decided who I am, and everyone should respect that, if you're progressive.


Everyone should respect the fantasies in my head, if I decide I want to play them out.

[Northern Monkey]

There's already disabled toilets in place.Just let them use that.Would save having to build extra unisex toilets.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

There's already disabled toilets in place.Just let them use that.Would save having to build extra unisex toilets.

good point , disabled toilets are unisex

[user104658]

I'm not 100% set on my opinion on the actual issue really so it would be wrong to pretend that I am.

In general, though, I would say that I'm not against the idea of devolving the issues to the discretion of individual states. The more of that, the better, to be honest, in a country as geographically large and highly populated as the US. Yes it creates some problems with there being differences from state to state but - on the other hand - with the US being as divided as it is, it's probably a good idea to have as much devolution as possible so that people have more choice in living somewhere that aligns with them The option to move from a red state to a more liberal state and have the law of the land there more accurately represent your own values, for example, or vice versa, rather than having sweeping rules set by only half of the population. I'd happily see the vast majority of laws, rules and regulations, healthcare, welfare, most taxation etc. devolved to each state with only the real Big Picture stuff coming from Washington (defense, international trade, et al).

[VanessaFeltz.]

Third bathroom/locker room etc would be the best solution.
I feel so bad that transgender people have to go through this hard problem and i cant even imagine how they feel basically everyday. I also understand the other people having concerns about fake transgenders perving on people.

[Vicky.]

The unisex option wouldn't work in schools though. Dunno about anyone else but I remember what it was like at school...I remember how the boys would grope and leer. I expect boys might have found girls to be pervy too though obviously I don't have that perspective myself. Separate spaces are needed, especially for females (sorry truth) who will be getting their first periods and such. Its a horrific enough time without having to worry that a boy might be hovering to take the piss/try to watch. It was bad enough dealing with that whilst knowing other girls were around.

Does anyone seriously think that having a unisex changing room for PE and stuff...would go down well with the average teenager? That it would not cause huge problems?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

The unisex option wouldn't work in schools though. Dunno about anyone else but I remember what it was like at school...I remember how the boys would grope and leer. I expect boys might have found girls to be pervy too though obviously I don't have that perspective myself. Separate spaces are needed, especially for females (sorry truth) who will be getting their first periods and such. Its a horrific enough time without having to worry that a boy might be hovering to take the piss/try to watch. It was bad enough dealing with that whilst knowing other girls were around.

Does anyone seriously think that having a unisex changing room for PE and stuff...would go down well with the average teenager? That it would not cause huge problems?

My imagining of a unisex solution, personally, would be that it would be all individual self-contained cubicles (without gaps above / below the doors) and each cubicle would have a mirror / hand washing sink as well. It wouldn't be unisex in the sense of "shared", rather every individual toilet would be completely private so it would become irrelevant.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

My imagining of a unisex solution, personally, would be that it would be all individual self-contained cubicles (without gaps above / below the doors) and each cubicle would have a mirror / hand washing sink as well. It wouldn't be unisex in the sense of "shared", rather every individual toilet would be completely private so it would become irrelevant.

So what would you do for changing rooms in schools? The funding and space is not there to have individual cubicles...

Also funding issues with the full length cubicles actually...

Our school changing was grim. Just a big room with some benches and clothes pegs. I was 'ill' nearly every PE lesson as I didn't want to change infront of anyone, let alone the guys who were touching me up and calling me 'tits' as an early developer

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

So what would you do for changing rooms in schools? The funding and space is not there to have individual cubicles...

Also funding issues with the full length cubicles actually...

Changing rooms is another issue, to be honest the only realistic solution there is to have a "third option" changing room, though that's not really ideal.

Funding regarding the toilets wouldn't be an issue in newly designed buildings to be honest... if it was designed that way from the outset the cost wouldn't be hugely different to a "traditional" setup. You're talking a difference of a few thousand pounds in a building that will most likely total Łmillions so not really a concern. Similar to how anyone designing a commercial building these days will design it to be wheelchair accessible from the first stroke of the pen, and the cost isn't really any different. Whereas converting current buildings for wheelchair access can get complicated / expensive.

Of course the problem lies in the fact that it WOULD obviously be hugely expensive to convert currently existing facilities. I don't think that's any reason to not do it differently moving forwards, though. Just be honest and say that, unfortunately, it's not feasible to convert every school, but that school design going forward will be changing for future generations .

Our school changing was grim. Just a big room with some benches and clothes pegs. I was 'ill' nearly every PE lesson as I didn't want to change infront of anyone, let alone the guys who were touching me up and calling me 'tits' as an early developer

As a circumcised white Christian (atheist...) at a 99% white christian school, I feel your pain. The thought of the school changing rooms still fills me with horror...

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Changing rooms is another issue, to be honest the only realistic solution there is to have a "third option" changing room, though that's not really ideal.

Funding regarding the toilets wouldn't be an issue in newly designed buildings to be honest... if it was designed that way from the outset the cost wouldn't be hugely different to a "traditional" setup. You're talking a difference of a few thousand pounds in a building that will most likely total Łmillions so not really a concern. Similar to how anyone designing a commercial building these days will design it to be wheelchair accessible from the first stroke of the pen, and the cost isn't really any different. Whereas converting current buildings for wheelchair access can get complicated / expensive.

Of course the problem lies in the fact that it WOULD obviously be hugely expensive to convert currently existing facilities. I don't think that's any reason to not do it differently moving forwards, though. Just be honest and say that, unfortunately, it's not feasible to convert every school, but that school design going forward will be changing for future generations .




As a circumcised white Christian (atheist...) at a 99% white christian school, I feel your pain. The thought of the school changing rooms still fills me with horror...

most buildings are still not wheelchair access and ost new flats do not have any lifts in them so no one in a wheelchair can get upstairs? meanwhile women with babies are allowed to steal disabled peoples seats on buses too

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Changing rooms is another issue, to be honest the only realistic solution there is to have a "third option" changing room, though that's not really ideal.

Funding regarding the toilets wouldn't be an issue in newly designed buildings to be honest... if it was designed that way from the outset the cost wouldn't be hugely different to a "traditional" setup. You're talking a difference of a few thousand pounds in a building that will most likely total Łmillions so not really a concern. Similar to how anyone designing a commercial building these days will design it to be wheelchair accessible from the first stroke of the pen, and the cost isn't really any different. Whereas converting current buildings for wheelchair access can get complicated / expensive.

Of course the problem lies in the fact that it WOULD obviously be hugely expensive to convert currently existing facilities. I don't think that's any reason to not do it differently moving forwards, though. Just be honest and say that, unfortunately, it's not feasible to convert every school, but that school design going forward will be changing for future generations .




As a circumcised white Christian (atheist...) at a 99% white christian school, I feel your pain. The thought of the school changing rooms still fills me with horror...

Oh yes, newbuilds I agree entirely. Unisex cubicles are definitely the way forward. This will obviously work well in the long term but in the short term, obviously these are not going to be available, so there is still an issue of what to do for now :S I would argue though, that whilst adults would be fine with floor to ceiling loos and a communal sink area, in schools I do still think this could be a problem so maybe cubicles like current disabled ones, with a sink in each and no communal closed off bit?

This issue does go beyond toilets though. Loos is pretty easily solved as above.

[Vicky.]

Thanks. I guess all of this interests me because going by current definitions, I am trans myself. Which is...odd. I always assumed that everyone felt like I do...which is basically this

I do not feel 'like a woman', though I am obviously female. I just feel 'like me', or like a person.

I honestly thought that this was how everyone felt. However, not 'identifying' as a woman whilst being female, makes me trans. As does not being 'purely feminine'. Which is an odd concept in itself. I don't think many people in the whole world perform femininity to a tee...and have nothing even slightly masculine about them.

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Thanks. I guess all of this interests me because going by current definitions, I am trans myself. Which is...odd. I always assumed that everyone felt like I do...which is basically this

I do not feel 'like a woman', though I am obviously female. I just feel 'like me', or like a person.

I honestly thought that this was how everyone felt. However, not 'identifying' as a woman whilst being female, makes me trans. As does not being 'purely feminine'. Which is an odd concept in itself. I don't think many people in the whole world perform femininity to a tee...and have nothing even slightly masculine about them.

I think there's a lot of 'definitions' for things that we don't really understand, which is very odd when you think about it. How can we define something that we don't understand? I don't really know what 'feeling like a man' entails so maybe I'm trans too
I think the definitions are only really there to try and help people who struggle with their identity though and are trying to understand themselves better and who do have feelings that connect with those definitions, I'd guess that even if you don't consider yourself 'male' or 'female' but are content with who you are then there's no trans issue there because you're not looking for anything to change and you're not looking to be thought of differently, I don't know

[RichardG]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I do not feel 'like a woman', though I am obviously female. I just feel 'like me', or like a person.

I am the same and I think that's probably the case for a lot of people? Last year a video came out online of a girl 'coming out' to Obama as non-binary, supposedly meaning she doesn't identify as male or female, and I thought... big deal, isn't that the case for most people. Unless I'm totally misunderstanding the definition of it. Not that I mean to sound rude, if a friend told me they were non binary then I'd respect that, but I'm not really sure why people want to give every possible identity a label.

[Northern Monkey]

It's a mine field.I don't think inventing all these labels is helpful for society as a whole tbh.There comes a point where things get so complicated that people just give up trying to understand.
Everone's different.I don't think there needs to be a label for every different feeling or emotion that everyone experiences.

[Jack_]

The obvious answer - as has been touched on - is to do away with segregated bathrooms altogether. We have a few sets of newly built gender neutral toilets at our uni library - which are literally three separate cubicles that have a toilet, sink and Dyson Airblade in, and they are a **** load nicer than the regular segregated toilets when I stumbled upon them by accident I was amazed

There is literally no reason to separate toilets by gender. Or changing rooms, for that matter. Do away with those awful open spaces you get at some leisure centres - I don't wanna see a 70 year old's dick flapping around, thanks. I agree with TS that the solution is individual cubicles.

On topic - I think the notion that 'pervy' men are going to dress up as women to gain access to their toilets so they can attack someone is problematic on two counts: the first being that as has already been pointed out, many trans people will have been using the 'wrong' bathroom without anyone knowing for decades and I don't think there's much evidence of this being a particularly pertinent problem, and the second that if a man (or a woman, actually) wishes to lurk in a bathroom waiting to attack someone, they will do it regardless. A sign above a door isn't going to stop anyone. Not to mention the fact that most sexual assaults don't take place inside a public toilet at the hand of a stranger, but rather with people you know in a place you're familiar with.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Jack_

On topic - I think the notion that 'pervy' men are going to dress up as women to gain access to their toilets so they can attack someone is problematic on two counts: the first being that as has already been pointed out, many trans people will have been using the 'wrong' bathroom without anyone knowing for decades and I don't think there's much evidence of this being a particularly pertinent problem, and the second that if a man (or a woman, actually) wishes to lurk in a bathroom waiting to attack someone, they will do it regardless. A sign above a door isn't going to stop anyone. Not to mention the fact that most sexual assaults don't take place inside a public toilet at the hand of a stranger, but rather with people you know in a place you're familiar with.

lol I post this and then this article pops up on my Facebook feed

http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...e96746917.html

[Jamie89]

Originally Posted by Jack_

lol I post this and then this article pops up on my Facebook feed

http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...e96746917.html

Great article, it raises some really valid points imo (and great posts too Jack I totally agree with everything you're saying)


From the article...

Sometimes change isn’t comfortable, but it’s still the right thing to do. And guess what? Eventually it becomes so comfortable that the next generation can’t imagine what all the fuss was about.

The 'uncomfortable' argument is one that I haven't been able to understand, it's an argument that could be used against any type of progression but discomfort is just that and fades over time, it doesn't relate to any actual or realistic possibility of increased danger in this case, I can't help but see it as more of an irrational fear.

Harassment in bathrooms is a serious problem, but the new laws enacted to protect North Carolina citizens are protecting the wrong people. House Bill 2 makes the bathrooms less safe for those who really do have to worry about violence.

The stories I heard came from young people who do not conform to gender stereotypes. Fifteen were raised as girls but are not now easily identifiable as men or women. Some are straight and some gay. Women often challenged them if they entered women’s restrooms because they looked boyish. But they were often afraid to enter men’s rooms because they feared violence.

It's a good point that people may not necessarily be transsexual and therefore don't require sex reassignment surgery but still face difficulty in terms of how other people perceive their gender/sex and the treatment they receive because of that. I suppose it's those kinds of people who would benefit the most from these laws (and I'd guess the numbers of people like this are increasing... although that is just a total guess lol).

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Jack_

lol I post this and then this article pops up on my Facebook feed

http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...e96746917.html

This author starts out in bad faith argument and never lets up. The Obama administration made a unlateral and, frankly, unconstitutional overreach when it declared title IX that specifically deals with sex includes "gender identity." The same over-reach that Leftist Charlotte did by requiring all businesses to allow self-identified trans people full access to locker rooms, changing rooms, showers of the opposite sex.

It should be noted that this author never addresses the issue of locker rooms/showers/changing areas or even sports. We've seen already situations in which males are competing in girls sports and winning. And the major newspaper in Charlotte editorializing that women and girls need to "get used to" being exposed to male genitalia in their locker rooms.

So this isn't "just" about wondering who is in the next stall in a restroom, this is about telling women & girls they no longer have the right to refuse naked men in their locker rooms, changing rooms and showers. That a woman's bodily integrity, privacy and safety must give way to a larger religiously-held ideology.

First comment on it says it all for me tbh...

[Denver]

Originally Posted by Jack_

The obvious answer - as has been touched on - is to do away with segregated bathrooms altogether. We have a few sets of newly built gender neutral toilets at our uni library - which are literally three separate cubicles that have a toilet, sink and Dyson Airblade in, and they are a **** load nicer than the regular segregated toilets when I stumbled upon them by accident I was amazed

There is literally no reason to separate toilets by gender. Or changing rooms, for that matter. Do away with those awful open spaces you get at some leisure centres - I don't wanna see a 70 year old's dick flapping around, thanks. I agree with TS that the solution is individual cubicles.

On topic - I think the notion that 'pervy' men are going to dress up as women to gain access to their toilets so they can attack someone is problematic on two counts: the first being that as has already been pointed out, many trans people will have been using the 'wrong' bathroom without anyone knowing for decades and I don't think there's much evidence of this being a particularly pertinent problem, and the second that if a man (or a woman, actually) wishes to lurk in a bathroom waiting to attack someone, they will do it regardless. A sign above a door isn't going to stop anyone. Not to mention the fact that most sexual assaults don't take place inside a public toilet at the hand of a stranger, but rather with people you know in a place you're familiar with.

Unisex bathrooms is a breeding ground for perverts and rapists

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Jack_

The obvious answer - as has been touched on - is to do away with segregated bathrooms altogether. We have a few sets of newly built gender neutral toilets at our uni library - which are literally three separate cubicles that have a toilet, sink and Dyson Airblade in, and they are a **** load nicer than the regular segregated toilets when I stumbled upon them by accident I was amazed

There is literally no reason to separate toilets by gender. Or changing rooms, for that matter. Do away with those awful open spaces you get at some leisure centres - I don't wanna see a 70 year old's dick flapping around, thanks. I agree with TS that the solution is individual cubicles.

On topic - I think the notion that 'pervy' men are going to dress up as women to gain access to their toilets so they can attack someone is problematic on two counts: the first being that as has already been pointed out, many trans people will have been using the 'wrong' bathroom without anyone knowing for decades and I don't think there's much evidence of this being a particularly pertinent problem, and the second that if a man (or a woman, actually) wishes to lurk in a bathroom waiting to attack someone, they will do it regardless. A sign above a door isn't going to stop anyone. Not to mention the fact that most sexual assaults don't take place inside a public toilet at the hand of a stranger, but rather with people you know in a place you're familiar with.

Coming from a male perspective.

Many women would not be comfortable sharing bsthrooms with men - it doesn't matter whether you agree with that or not, that is how many women feel and such decisions should be theirs, not men's.

It's not just about sex crimes although this is undoubtedly an issue as most victims of sex crimes are female and most perpetrators are male, that is fact.

It is also about about simple things such as comfort, dignity and privacy - things that often affect/bother women more than men. You don't understand that, as a woman I do.

It really isn't for men to say women shouldn't be 'allowed' their own toilets/bathrooms.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Coming from a male perspective.

Many women would not be comfortable sharing bsthrooms with men - it doesn't matter whether you agree with that or not, that is how many women feel and such decisions should be theirs, not men's.

It's not just about sex crimes although this is undoubtedly an issue as most victims of sex crimes are female and most perpetrators are male, that is fact.

It is also about about simple things such as comfort, dignity and privacy - things that often affect/bother women more than men. You don't understand that, as a woman I do.

It really isn't for men to say women shouldn't be 'allowed' their own toilets/bathrooms.

Yeah... thanks for mansplaining how women feel

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

Yeah... thanks for mansplaining how women feel

There's a rumour going around that Brillo is female... Brillo is yet to confirm or deny. It's all very confusing.