[the truth]

Originally Posted by MTVN

If our foreign policy is to blame then why has Germany also been targeted numerous times? They are a country that has not carried out bombings on Muslim countries and they have done more than any other European nation to help with the victims of wars in the Middle East. Yet still they are attacked. It's the same story with Sweden.

They - and we - are attacked not because of what we do but because of who we are. Because Islamist extremists are by their very ideology totally opposed to the whole structure, culture, demography and identity of the West. That would be the case whether we pursued an interventionist foreign policy or an isolationist one. The whole argument that we have brought this upon ourselves is ridiculously reductionist.

exactly

in germany now they have open borders have seen a massive rise in terrorism and sexual assault

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by the truth

exactly

in germany now they have open borders have seen a massive rise in terrorism and sexual assault

Yep.Letting masses of unchecked ideologically opposing people from a religion that is anti everything the west stands for is fecking insane self destruction.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Yep.Letting masses of unchecked ideologically opposing people from a religion that is anti everything the west stands for is fecking insane self destruction.

yet so many millions of liberals cannot see this simple truth? what will it take for them to ever see the actual truth ?

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by MTVN

If our foreign policy is to blame then why has Germany also been targeted numerous times? They are a country that has not carried out bombings on Muslim countries and they have done more than any other European nation to help with the victims of wars in the Middle East. Yet still they are attacked. It's the same story with Sweden.

They - and we - are attacked not because of what we do but because of who we are. Because Islamist extremists are by their very ideology totally opposed to the whole structure, culture, demography and identity of the West. That would be the case whether we pursued an interventionist foreign policy or an isolationist one. The whole argument that we have brought this upon ourselves is ridiculously reductionist.

Bingo!
This century's Islamic troubles began on 9/11 in Newyork.What was the reason for that?Should the US and their allies have done nothing after that?
Doing nothing would not have stopped Islamic terrorism.It was already happening and doing nothing would have been a green light for terrorists to do whatever they want.
Now i do agree that Iraq was a mistake and likely helped transform Al Qaeda and other terrorist cells into ISIS however without ISIS there would still be mad Muslims killing us under a different banner.Doing nothing is not the answer.
It has to be a multilateral approach combining ideological,military,intelligence and national security.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Bingo!
This century's Islamic troubles began on 9/11 in Newyork.What was the reason for that?Should the US and their allies have done nothing after that?
Doing nothing would not have stopped Islamic terrorism.It was already happening and doing nothing would have been a green light for terrorists to do whatever they want.
Now i do agree that Iraq was a mistake and likely helped transform Al Qaeda and other terrorist cells into ISIS however without ISIS there would still be mad Muslims killing us under a different banner.Doing nothing is not the answer.
It has to be a multilateral approach combining ideological,military,intelligence and national security.

And yet we have never won a gorilla war. You can't fight modern warfare with gorillas but we keep on trying and we keep on being defeated.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

And yet we have never won a gorilla war. You can't fight modern warfare with gorillas but we keep on trying and we keep on being defeated.

So doing nothing is an option in your opinion?
Letting IS take over country after country transforming them into Islamic hell with no freedoms,where women are beaten and raped,gays thrown off roofs and all infidels brutally tortured,decapitated and murdered should be left undisturbed?
That's not a world i want to live in.When that Islamic state reached our borders and we lived under it that would be true hell.

[jaxie]

To begin with I think we have to look towards religious schools. If you allow children to be segregated at school and they are segregated into religious communities at home which often happens. How do they come to know children who aren't of their religion and make friends? For any multi cultural society to work there has to be integration rather than segregation.

Also language make sure that everyone in the family can speak the language of the country they are living in. For their own sake and so that they can communicate with others and are not isolated.

Stronger reaction where extremist tendencies are flagged, including looking at family and what they are teaching their young people. More focus on the equality of women and girls through social work and counselling.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by jaxie

To begin with I think we have to look towards religious schools. If you allow children to be segregated at school and they are segregated into religious communities at home which often happens. How do they come to know children who aren't of their religion and make friends? For any multi cultural society to work there has to be integration rather than segregation.

Also language make sure that everyone in the family can speak the language of the country they are living in. For their own sake and so that they can communicate with others and are not isolated.

Stronger reaction where extremist tendencies are flagged, including looking at family and what they are teaching their young people. More focus on the equality of women and girls through social work and counselling.

Well said!

[DemolitionRed]

Germany has been involved in the Syrian civil war since Dec 2015 and a large number of Swedish citizens are fighting for terrorist organizations in Syria.

If the attacks are happening because they are opposed to what we are, why didn't it happen sooner?

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Germany has been involved in the Syrian civil war since Dec 2015 and a large number of Swedish citizens are fighting for terrorist organizations in Syria.

If the attacks are happening because they are opposed to what we are, why didn't it happen sooner?

The threat has been there for decades. The difference now is that instability in the Middle East - which is not all our fault, there are huge internal issues in many Middle Eastern countries - has allowed extremism to prosper and have a base that it didn't before. That in turn has given it greater reach along with the new use of social media and the internet to spread their propaganda and recruit new followers etc.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by MTVN

The threat has been there for decades. The difference now is that instability in the Middle East - which is not all our fault, there are huge internal issues in many Middle Eastern countries - has allowed extremism to prosper and have a base that it didn't before. That in turn has given it greater reach along with the new use of social media and the internet to spread their propaganda and recruit new followers etc.

No, sorry I don't subscribe to that 'It was like that when I got here'! approach.

[the truth]

You start by eliminating political correctness

ONLY then can you start to deal with this mega monstrosity where 35000+ and rising innocents are killed worldwide every year and 100s of thousands are injured for life

[Scarlett.]

Originally Posted by the truth

You start by eliminating political correctness

Ah yes, political correctness, the root of all evil

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Chewy

Ah yes, political correctness, the root of all evil

correct...or rather the root of allowing all evil a free pass

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by the truth

correct...or rather the root of allowing all evil a free pass

Tonight I read an interesting blog from a green party member on a political site. I contemplated posting it here but feared the backlash because what he said, would not be considered politically correct. Fortunately, not all forums are as reactionary as they are here. This is an incredibly PC site and yet look at us... we are still here!!

[Denver]

Change our attitudes to religion dont blame the innocent then young people wont be easily mislead

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Adam.

Change our attitudes to religion dont blame the innocent then young people wont be easily mislead

so you think Christianity and islam are the same? utter nonsense

[Denver]

Originally Posted by the truth

so you think Christianity and islam are the same? utter nonsense

The beliefs are very similar.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Adam.

The beliefs are very similar.

nope theyre totally different try and do some reading
try the old testament then the new one and come back in 20 years

[Denver]

Originally Posted by the truth

nope theyre totally different try and do some reading
try the old testament then the new one and come back in 20 years

The bible teaches that it is ok to murder people

[James]

I agree with MTVN.

I don't have much of answer to stopping terror attacks, other than supporting the security services, but I think we need to stop blaming ourselves.

There's been some blunders in foreign policy, for sure, but there are also many occasions when the West has done good around the world.

It [the blaming ourselves thing] smacks a bit of only being concerned with the politics and future of this country (and other western countries, especially America), and not concerning ourselves or understanding what is happening around the world.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by James

I agree with MTVN.

I don't have much of answer to stopping terror attacks, other than supporting the security services, but I think we need to stop blaming ourselves.

There's been some blunders in foreign policy, for sure, but there are also many occasions when the West has done good around the world.

It [the blaming ourselves thing] smacks a bit of only being concerned with the politics and future of this country (and other western countries, especially America), and not concerning ourselves or understanding what is happening around the world.

It's not about "blame", it's about recognizing the destructive cycle that feeds terrorism so that we might actually have a chance of making real changes that will make real differences. It's not "blaming ourselves" to try to see the objective mechanism that leads to extremism. It is the only practical solution and, conversely, it is getting defensive and refusing to look at the whole situation from other angles that distracts from that.

People are more concerned with "being outraged" - which is completely and utterly futile - than they are with finding real solutions that might actually lead to a safer future and save lives.

[James]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's not about "blame", it's about recognizing the destructive cycle that feeds terrorism so that we might actually have a chance of making real changes that will make real differences. It's not "blaming ourselves" to try to see the objective mechanism that leads to extremism. It is the only practical solution and, conversely, it is getting defensive and refusing to look at the whole situation from other angles that distracts from that.

People are more concerned with "being outraged" - which is completely and utterly futile - than they are with finding real solutions that might actually lead to a safer future and save lives.

There's probably better words I could have used than 'blaming ourselves' but I can't think of them. It's a certain type of politics that gets held responsible here. Again it is all about our own politics, and the Middle East only usually gets reported if there is a Western angle to the story, so it can be easy to ignore in a kind of "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil."

One aspect of the Middle East that hasn't been mentioned in the cycle of destabalisation is the number of dictatorships that rule these countries, and the often-eventual internal reaction.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by James

There's probably better words I could have used than 'blaming ourselves' but I can't think of them. It's a certain type of politics that gets held responsible here. Again it is all about our own politics, and the Middle East only usually gets reported if there is a Western angle to the story, so it can be easy to ignore in a kind of "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil."

One aspect of the Middle East that hasn't been mentioned in the cycle of destabalisation is the number of dictatorships that rule these countries, and the often-eventual internal reaction.

Many of us in the west live in countries which couldn't wait to meddle in the middle east, the English for instance have been meddling in Iraq since before WWI. We remove tyrannical dictators and then celebrate, as if what, as if the country will now move to democratic elections and have Tory and Labour PM's to vote for!. Tyrannical leaders they may have been, but they kept stability in the middle east. Why is tyrannical rule in Saudi ok?

We have now peddled around removing them and leaving power vacuums everywhere into which ISIS and various terrorist groups have dived and now they are spreading westwards. Mostly uneducated, mostly mentally ill or unstable but they are still here, fighting what they believe to be a revolution against the enemy.

And the frightening thing is, we can't stop them. We can fill our streets with troops but we won't stop them. We can give more privacy away but we can't find them. Even if we give up everything in our paranoia, we can't stop this.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Many of us in the west live in countries which couldn't wait to meddle in the middle east, the English for instance have been meddling in Iraq since before WWI. We remove tyrannical dictators and then celebrate, as if what, as if the country will now move to democratic elections and have Tory and Labour PM's to vote for!. Tyrannical leaders they may have been, but they kept stability in the middle east. Why is tyrannical rule in Saudi ok?

We have now peddled around removing them and leaving power vacuums everywhere into which ISIS and various terrorist groups have dived and now they are spreading westwards. Mostly uneducated, mostly mentally ill or unstable but they are still here, fighting what they believe to be a revolution against the enemy.

And the frightening thing is, we can't stop them. We can fill our streets with troops but we won't stop them. We can give more privacy away but we can't find them. Even if we give up everything in our paranoia, we can't stop this.

I know you will disagree on this but to me and many others the only way to protect ourselves in the future is to stop enabling future home grown terrorism by significantly reducing non-European immigration into the West.

If there is no other way, if these people can't be reasoned with, we have to take steps to protect ourselves and future generations.