[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I'd say that's obvious

Not that I am saying we are uniquely targeted in the West, a lot of Islamist extremists have just as much hatred for the way of life in many Muslim countries if they don't conform to the their narrow view of Islam

So when Lee Rigbys killers stated to camera that it was British foreign policy that drove them to murder .. were they lying?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Jack_

Yep. Not enough people understand this. I have to be very careful about how I word this, particularly on a day like today, but when people see US, British and other European forces destroy their civilisation and maim their communities, it's inevitable that some are going to seek vengeance.

It's not just that though. Succumbing to the fear and division that these people intend to cause - by scapegoating an entire religion - actually makes the problem worse. The goal of Islamic fundamentalists is to prove to westernised, integrated Muslims that they are hated. That they have no place here, and that they must rise up and fight the infidels. This is actually documented. It's also how radicalisation works, and how it begins. And by pandering to the wishes of terrorists, you are exacerbating the problem. In fact, you are the problem. So stop.

no one here or anywhere else is scapegoating an entire religion, apart from the jihadis mass murdering terrorists. I suggest you vent your criticism at them and those who arm and inspire them

[the truth]

Originally Posted by MTVN

If our foreign policy is to blame then why has Germany also been targeted numerous times? They are a country that has not carried out bombings on Muslim countries and they have done more than any other European nation to help with the victims of wars in the Middle East. Yet still they are attacked. It's the same story with Sweden.

They - and we - are attacked not because of what we do but because of who we are. Because Islamist extremists are by their very ideology totally opposed to the whole structure, culture, demography and identity of the West. That would be the case whether we pursued an interventionist foreign policy or an isolationist one. The whole argument that we have brought this upon ourselves is ridiculously reductionist.

exactly

in germany now they have open borders have seen a massive rise in terrorism and sexual assault

[Scarlett.]

Originally Posted by the truth

You start by eliminating political correctness

Ah yes, political correctness, the root of all evil

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Chewy

Ah yes, political correctness, the root of all evil

correct...or rather the root of allowing all evil a free pass

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by the truth

correct...or rather the root of allowing all evil a free pass

Tonight I read an interesting blog from a green party member on a political site. I contemplated posting it here but feared the backlash because what he said, would not be considered politically correct. Fortunately, not all forums are as reactionary as they are here. This is an incredibly PC site and yet look at us... we are still here!!

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

So when Lee Rigbys killers stated to camera that it was British foreign policy that drove them to murder .. were they lying?

It has become the favoured allegation and I am sure it is effective for recruitment but it goes well beyond that

In any case, what is the correlation here between UK foreign policy and a pop concert attended by teens? In what way is blowing up children an understandable response to our involvement in the Middle East? We're supposed to just accept that acts like last night are an 'inevitable' blowback? The logical consequences of our actions?

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by MTVN

If our foreign policy is to blame then why has Germany also been targeted numerous times? They are a country that has not carried out bombings on Muslim countries and they have done more than any other European nation to help with the victims of wars in the Middle East. Yet still they are attacked. It's the same story with Sweden.

They - and we - are attacked not because of what we do but because of who we are. Because Islamist extremists are by their very ideology totally opposed to the whole structure, culture, demography and identity of the West. That would be the case whether we pursued an interventionist foreign policy or an isolationist one. The whole argument that we have brought this upon ourselves is ridiculously reductionist.

Bingo!
This century's Islamic troubles began on 9/11 in Newyork.What was the reason for that?Should the US and their allies have done nothing after that?
Doing nothing would not have stopped Islamic terrorism.It was already happening and doing nothing would have been a green light for terrorists to do whatever they want.
Now i do agree that Iraq was a mistake and likely helped transform Al Qaeda and other terrorist cells into ISIS however without ISIS there would still be mad Muslims killing us under a different banner.Doing nothing is not the answer.
It has to be a multilateral approach combining ideological,military,intelligence and national security.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by MTVN

It has become the favoured allegation and I am sure it is effective for recruitment but it goes well beyond that

In any case, what is the correlation here between UK foreign policy and a pop concert attended by teens? In what way is blowing up children an understandable response to our involvement in the Middle East? We're supposed to just accept that acts like last night are an 'inevitable' blowback? The logical consequences of our actions?

The target, a pop concert, is a strange target. If you wanted to make a political statement you could go outside the houses of parliament.

On the other hand, the collective West are blowing up innocents and yes, that includes children, in the middle east. We are seen in Syria as invaders... we are invaders.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by MTVN

It has become the favoured allegation and I am sure it is effective for recruitment but it goes well beyond that

In any case, what is the correlation here between UK foreign policy and a pop concert attended by teens? In what way is blowing up children an understandable response to our involvement in the Middle East? We're supposed to just accept that acts like last night are an 'inevitable' blowback? The logical consequences of our actions?

According to Sadiq Khan yes

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Bingo!
This century's Islamic troubles began on 9/11 in Newyork.What was the reason for that?Should the US and their allies have done nothing after that?
Doing nothing would not have stopped Islamic terrorism.It was already happening and doing nothing would have been a green light for terrorists to do whatever they want.
Now i do agree that Iraq was a mistake and likely helped transform Al Qaeda and other terrorist cells into ISIS however without ISIS there would still be mad Muslims killing us under a different banner.Doing nothing is not the answer.
It has to be a multilateral approach combining ideological,military,intelligence and national security.

And yet we have never won a gorilla war. You can't fight modern warfare with gorillas but we keep on trying and we keep on being defeated.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by the truth

exactly

in germany now they have open borders have seen a massive rise in terrorism and sexual assault

Yep.Letting masses of unchecked ideologically opposing people from a religion that is anti everything the west stands for is fecking insane self destruction.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

The target, a pop concert, is a strange target. If you wanted to make a political statement you could go outside the houses of parliament.

On the other hand, the collective West are blowing up innocents and yes, that includes children, in the middle east. We are seen in Syria as invaders... we are invaders.

Hence why it is not purely political, it is an attack on the Western way of life. Same reason the Bataclan was attacked.

Who in Syria sees us as invaders? Assad supporters? His opponents? Isis? All of them? The country is in the midst of a bloody civil war and has fractured into hundreds of competing militias, tribes, gangs, whatever you want to call them. It's very hard to see how we could improve the situation there. We intervene and we're invaders, we do nothing and we're accused of allowing innocents to die in chemical attacks.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Yep.Letting masses of unchecked ideologically opposing people from a religion that is anti everything the west stands for is fecking insane self destruction.

yet so many millions of liberals cannot see this simple truth? what will it take for them to ever see the actual truth ?

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by MTVN

It has become the favoured allegation and I am sure it is effective for recruitment but it goes well beyond that

In any case, what is the correlation here between UK foreign policy and a pop concert attended by teens? In what way is blowing up children an understandable response to our involvement in the Middle East? We're supposed to just accept that acts like last night are an 'inevitable' blowback? The logical consequences of our actions?

They stated it direct to camera, that was their motivation.. but you know better.

The target is something we hold dear, our children... What would be the point of targeting something we didn't care about? That wouldn't illicit much of a response would it?

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

And yet we have never won a gorilla war. You can't fight modern warfare with gorillas but we keep on trying and we keep on being defeated.

So doing nothing is an option in your opinion?
Letting IS take over country after country transforming them into Islamic hell with no freedoms,where women are beaten and raped,gays thrown off roofs and all infidels brutally tortured,decapitated and murdered should be left undisturbed?
That's not a world i want to live in.When that Islamic state reached our borders and we lived under it that would be true hell.

[Denver]

Change our attitudes to religion dont blame the innocent then young people wont be easily mislead

[James]

I agree with MTVN.

I don't have much of answer to stopping terror attacks, other than supporting the security services, but I think we need to stop blaming ourselves.

There's been some blunders in foreign policy, for sure, but there are also many occasions when the West has done good around the world.

It [the blaming ourselves thing] smacks a bit of only being concerned with the politics and future of this country (and other western countries, especially America), and not concerning ourselves or understanding what is happening around the world.

[Kizzy]

Yeah destabilisation was a stellar idea, and nothing could ever go wrong and if it did it totally would not be anything to do with us.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Adam.

Change our attitudes to religion dont blame the innocent then young people wont be easily mislead

so you think Christianity and islam are the same? utter nonsense

[Denver]

Originally Posted by the truth

so you think Christianity and islam are the same? utter nonsense

The beliefs are very similar.

[Toy Soldier]

Originally Posted by James

I agree with MTVN.

I don't have much of answer to stopping terror attacks, other than supporting the security services, but I think we need to stop blaming ourselves.

There's been some blunders in foreign policy, for sure, but there are also many occasions when the West has done good around the world.

It [the blaming ourselves thing] smacks a bit of only being concerned with the politics and future of this country (and other western countries, especially America), and not concerning ourselves or understanding what is happening around the world.

It's not about "blame", it's about recognizing the destructive cycle that feeds terrorism so that we might actually have a chance of making real changes that will make real differences. It's not "blaming ourselves" to try to see the objective mechanism that leads to extremism. It is the only practical solution and, conversely, it is getting defensive and refusing to look at the whole situation from other angles that distracts from that.

People are more concerned with "being outraged" - which is completely and utterly futile - than they are with finding real solutions that might actually lead to a safer future and save lives.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Adam.

The beliefs are very similar.

nope theyre totally different try and do some reading
try the old testament then the new one and come back in 20 years

[jaxie]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

So when Lee Rigbys killers stated to camera that it was British foreign policy that drove them to murder .. were they lying?

Well yes they were lying in their south London accents. You think the government drove them to slaughter an innocent man and stand there with blood on their hands? You think there is some excuse or justification for that?

[Denver]

Originally Posted by the truth

nope theyre totally different try and do some reading
try the old testament then the new one and come back in 20 years

The bible teaches that it is ok to murder people