[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The toxic expectation of masculinity does exist but it's a society-wide expectation... with (in my experience) women being as likely to "expect men to be manly" or - at the very least - express an increased level of appreciation for "manly men" to the extent that being "unmanly" becomes undesirable. Men also do it to each other, obviously, but if you think about it, the only reason a man would be saying those things to another man is if they felt that expectation on themselves, too. I'm not "blaming women" for it or anything like that... I'm just saying that it's an attitude that seems to apply across the board. MOST of the problematic issues do, and that's another thing that has to be recognised before any real progress can be made. Another example on the flipside would be "slut shaming"... with women being just as likely to do it to other women as men are and, similarly to the "man up" stuff, I'd say in general women are MORE harsh on other women than men are BUT as with the above - you have to ask why that would be.

But really though all I ever come back to in thinking about it is that everyone needs to stop assigning blame and tackle the whole issue as one; with a view to establishing REAL, not forced, respect and equality between men and women. I do take issue with the bulk of feminism, and that's because I get the strong impression that the movement is more about retribution than it is establishing true equality, and any quest for retribution is going to include an element of vindictiveness that in turn is only EVER going to develop into further resentment, division, and inequality.

Yes. I didn't say it was only men who are to 'blame'.

Breaking down sex stereotypes and expectations of these sex stereotypes (which are utter nonsense to most people) really should be priority for every damn person. Cause way too many issues.

Women are more harsh on women than men are as they have internalized misogyny..generally speaking. Slut shaming is almost exclusively done by women.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yes I have heard male tears and phrases like that are entirely unhelpful to anything. About toxic masculinity though...I do agree that toxic masculinity hurts men in a huge way. There is the expectation that men will be 'manly' and not cry, not be sensitive and so on. I think this in turn does lead a lot of men to not seek help when they do need it.

Great post...

[Northern Monkey]

Well said TS

[Northern Monkey]

“Toxic masculinity” to me just reeks of an attack on maleness.

The irony is that women generally are more attracted to the alphas.If the feminists actually did manage to emasculate men they’d be moaning saying ‘where’s all the real men gone’.
These disingenuous male feminists who pretend to be all ‘for the cause’ to try and get jiggy usually all end up getting friendzoned and treat like cute little lapdogs.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

“Toxic masculinity” to me just reeks of an attack on maleness.

The irony is that women generally are more attracted to the alphas.If the feminists actually did manage to emasculate men they’d be moaning saying ‘where’s all the real men gone’.
These disingenuous male feminists who pretend to be all ‘for the cause’ to try and get jiggy usually all end up getting friendzoned and treat like cute little lapdogs.

It's not the feminist aim to emasculate men. I'm a feminist, I love men. I've always had far better relationships - generally - with men. I hate this kind of stuff like "toxic masculinity", it detracts from the real message, which is, we should be equal. Equal pay for equal jobs, equal access to jobs and respect going both ways.

Have you read the blog that Vicky posted about "whataboutery"? give it a go. It's very interesting.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Livia

It's not the feminist aim to emasculate men. I'm a feminist, I love men. I've always had far better relationships - generally - with men. I hate this kind of stuff like "toxic masculinity", it detracts from the real message, which is, we should be equal. Equal pay for equal jobs, equal access to jobs and respect going both ways.

Have you read the blog that Vicky posted about "whataboutery"? give it a go. It's very interesting.

Personally i think feminism was a much needed and good idea.However I believe that today now that legally we all have equal rights(more or less)it’s outdated and divisive.It should’ve quit while it was ahead on the second wave.
I want us all to be equal too but even the term ‘feminism’ is anti equality.It needs to be re-named to fit in with the modern world as there are also areas where men are ‘less equal’.
Feminism these days has a bad rap due to the extremists.Hence why only a small percentage of women identify as feminist.

And i’ll give it a read when i get time since you’ve recommended it

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Personally i think feminism was a much needed and good idea.However I believe that today now that legally we all have equal rights(more or less)it’s outdated and divisive.It should’ve quit while it was ahead on the second wave.
I want us all to be equal too but even the term ‘feminism’ is anti equality.It needs to be re-named to fit in with the modern world as there are also areas where men are ‘less equal’.
Feminism these days has a bad rap due to the extremists.Hence why only a small percentage of women identify as feminist.

And i’ll give it a read when i get time since you’ve recommended it

Oh yes, read it Monkey. I do approve of a man who does as he's told.

Spoiler:

Kidding! I'm KIDDING!

I think we still have a long way to go in the equality stakes. Like with everything else, it's the extremists who spoil stuff, from feminism to Islam to the Labour party. We more moderate feminists would not wish to be lumped into a pigeon hole with that lot. And I genuinely think that younger men are more in favour of equality than the old guard (although of course there are many exceptions to that rule). I suppose it's the same with racism. And homophobia. It will all change.

[Vicky.]

IMO third wave feminism is pretty much a bunch of bollocks anyway from what I know of the 'terms' (which is arguably not that much)

“Toxic masculinity” to me just reeks of an attack on maleness.

I would not say that. Unless you think being male is all about being seriously masculine I would disagree that it is tbh, and I am entirely honest when I say I do not actually know that many blokes who ARE really really masculine. And either way, I certainly did not mean it as an attack on maleness.

I will not budge though on what I said about the expectation of men adhering to sex based stereotypes..hurts men though Thats not blaming men, its blaming the stereotypes. I also think the expectation to adhere to female stereotypes is detrimental to women.