[Withano]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

Everyone has a right to an opinion. How they express that opinion is key, but as already stated, interpretation plays a big part too. Should we all we held to ransom by the sensibilities of some and the downright control by others?

I mean whats an acceptable way to express that a person believes women are worth less than men, for example, would be my next question. I cant think of one - obviously I'm aware I can't control their thought, but at what level are they allowed to express that opinion?

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Withano

I mean whats an acceptable way to express that a person believes women are worth less than men, for example, would be my next question. I cant think of one - obviously I'm aware I can't control their thought, but at what level are they allowed to express that opinion?

..well obviously you can express an opinion etc as many of us do in these things ...but with that opinion I personally just don’t think it’s helpful/progressive etc with just throwing a ‘label’ and ism at someone ...that’s only going to cause defensiveness and a potential inability to discuss...

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Paula D

If your belief is that people are not "entitled" to their views how do you suggest policing thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Withano

obviously I'm aware I can't control their thought, but at what level are they allowed to express that opinion?

I guess I more think along the lines of

People have the right to anything that is valid. There isnt a valid reason to hate an entrie group, there isn't a valid reason to steal or murder either. Nobody has that 'right'. (Maybe we're interpreting the word 'entitled' differently)

I'm well aware that I cant change their thought, if a person believes they have the right to steal or murder or hate an entire group, I'd argue that they do not, I wouldn't argue that I can police their thoughts.

[Paula D]

Originally Posted by Withano

I guess I more think along the lines of

People have the right to anything that is valid. There isnt a valid reason to hate an entrie group, there isn't a valid reason to steal or murder either. Nobody has that 'right'. (Maybe we're interpreting the word 'entitled' differently)

I'm well aware that I cant change their thought, if a person believes they have the right to steal or murder or hate an entire group, I'd argue that they do not, I wouldn't argue that I can police their thoughts.

You see you're comparing 2 things that are crimes with something that isn't a crime.

The thoughts are not criminal, some extreme actions are.

That's exactly why I said your question was too broad.

I think we're agreed on most things really I just think people need to step back sometimes and pick the right battles.

Going too far is never going to work.



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[Withano]

Originally Posted by Paula D

You see you're comparing 2 things that are crimes with something that isn't a crime.

The thoughts are not criminal, some extreme actions are.

That's exactly why I said your question was too broad.

I think we're agreed on most things really I just think people need to step back sometimes and pick the right battles.

Going too far is never going to work.



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The thought that 'I'm entitled to steal' or 'I'm entitled to be a racist' isn't criminal, correct, that was the point I was making (race-based hate crimes are on a similar level to stealing). I've never suggested we should police thoughts - I was asking at what point are they allowed to express their thoughts, and are they even entitled to their thoughts/speech/actions regarding the topic.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Withano

I guess I more think along the lines of

People have the right to anything that is valid. There isnt a valid reason to hate an entrie group, there isn't a valid reason to steal or murder either. Nobody has that 'right'. (Maybe we're interpreting the word 'entitled' differently)

I'm well aware that I cant change their thought, if a person believes they have the right to steal or murder or hate an entire group, I'd argue that they do not, I wouldn't argue that I can police their thoughts.

..there isn’t a valid reason for a phobia though, it’s more establishing where the ‘illogical’ derives from with someone..why fear a group of people as you say that are no threat to you../ ..aren’t going to harm you etc...but that person is feeling a fear by their phobia, so it’s important that, that’s discussed as well...and we can’t discuss what we don’t t know is there in the first place...?...maybe we can never change some views because they’re too instilled and will never be open to change..but it’s all we can do, to try to understand and not ‘throw hate’ back......and rely on laws for cases which are appropriate to infringing on human rights/prejudicing etc...

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..there isn’t a valid reason for a phobia though, it’s more establishing where the ‘illogical’ derives from with someone..why fear a group of people as you say that are no threat to you../ ..aren’t going to harm you etc...but that person is feeling a fear by their phobia, so it’s important that, that’s discussed as well...and we can’t discuss what we don’t t know is there in the first place...?...maybe we can never change some views because they’re too instilled and will never be open to change..but it’s all we can do, to try to understand and not ‘throw hate’ back......and rely on laws for cases which are appropriate to infringing on human rights/prejudicing etc...

I'm really not asking whether a person has the right to change a persons racist etc views, I'm asking whether theyre entitled to those views in todays society in the first place.

Discussions are important, and labels are counterintuitive at times, sure, but are we passed the point where these sort of views are ever valid at any time by any person? Or are they still ok in some situations?

[Paula D]

I don't know if you're trying to be passive aggressive or not Withano or you want a genuine debate.

If you don't want debate don't ask such an open question.

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[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Paula D

I don't know if you're trying to be passive aggressive or not Withano or you want a genuine debate.

If you don't want debate don't ask such an open question.

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He only wants one-sided rhetoric. Debate doesn’t Come into it.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

He only wants one-sided rhetoric. Debate doesn’t Come into it.

You mean like you do when you open threads to demonize Muslims ?

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

You mean like you do when you open threads to demonize Muslims ?

You see it as demonise because that suits you. No religion is above discussion or criticism and the day we can no longer do that is the day we really need to worry.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

You see it as demonise because that suits you. No religion is above discussion or criticism and the day we can no longer do that is the day we really need to worry.

This is where the distinction lies though Brillo;

I personally have no problem at all with you criticising the religion of Islam, or any other religion. I *do* have a problem with you assuming that all or most people with a "middle eastern appearance or middle eastern sounding name" are hardcore Muslims, or necessarily Muslims at all... and you do / have done that in the past.

Muslims can be Middle Eastern, Black, White, Central Asian, South-East Asian... there are 25 million Chinese Muslims... etc.

There are also plenty of people "of middle eastern appearance" who are of other religions or non-religious - especially those who now live in Western countries. There are almost 1 billion followers of Hinduism in India and I would bet a significant amount that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between someone from India (Hindu) and someone from Pakistan (Muslim) or the Middle East in a line-up...


So this is where your argument has always fallen flat and - you might notice - the ONLY times I have accused you of outright racism. NOT when you criticise Islam... but when you ASSUME people's culture or religion, based on how they look or where they are from, before you know anything more about them. That is racial prejudice... by simple definition... which is synonymous with racism.

[edited to add] Again though, I genuinely don't think that this is something that you do deliberately... it seems to usually be an honest conclusion that you come to. But a misguided one in my opinion. My only (I'm sure unwanted) advice would be to try to reserve judgement until there's enough information to make one without assumptions. But that's advice we could all do to take, I suppose, including myself.

[Withano]

Originally Posted by Paula D

I don't know if you're trying to be passive aggressive or not Withano or you want a genuine debate.

If you don't want debate don't ask such an open question.

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I dont want a debate, I want a discussion. Which post did you find passive aggressive, I'm literally just asking questions about peoples responses.

[Paula D]

Originally Posted by Withano

I dont want a debate, I want a discussion. Which post did you find passive aggressive, I'm literally just asking questions about peoples responses.

No no you're not. You're attempting to put words into people's mouth.

Answer me this question? If we all decided tomorrow that No people are not entitled to any views how do you suggest that's policed?

Do you go around and do surgery to remove thoughts from people's heads?

See how this works?

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[Withano]

Originally Posted by Paula D

No no you're not. You're attempting to put words into people's mouth.

Answer me this question? If we all decided tomorrow that No people are not entitled to any views how do you suggest that's policed?

Do you go around and do surgery to remove thoughts from people's heads?

See how this works?

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I feel like youre derailing the thread somewhat and I dont completely understand why.. your Irish referendum post made a lot of sense, you clearly stated where your line was, everything after that seemed to be fighting for the sake of it.

[Paula D]

Originally Posted by Withano

I feel like youre derailing the thread somewhat and I dont completely understand why.. your Irish referendum post made a lot of sense, you clearly stated where your line was, everything after that seemed to be fighting for the sake of it.

Oh hang on now, I'm not allowed to post now because I don't agree with you?

You've asked questions, I've answered them. I've asked you questions you haven't answered any of them.

The Irish referendum example is a perfectly valid one. I don't agree with other people's view on it but I believe in their right to hold that view.

What did you not understand about that?

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[Firewire]

You can think what you want, but it doesn’t give you the right to actively discriminate. Having thoughts and feelings are different to actions.

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Firewire

You can think what you want, but it doesn’t give you the right to actively discriminate. Having thoughts and feelings are different to actions.

Who is actively discriminating against who? That is the question.

[Kazanne]

Do you think this is acceptable

Youtube video

The older generation just have to die !!

[AnnieK]

Should we have the right to take people's rights away? Yes people are entitled to have those views, no they are not acceptable but you can't fight oppression with oppression imo

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Should we have the right to take people's rights away? Yes people are entitled to have those views, no they are not acceptable but you can't fight oppression with oppression imo

..yeah I agree, Annie..with trying to fight oppression with oppression, that whole concept will just create a standing still as opposed to moving forward etc...I mean, if you’re trying to discuss with someone you feel is any type of ‘ism/phobic’...surely it’s about trying to create an understanding of that and how/why it’s felt in the first place to create a common ground of communication..because that person’s views are going to be held by a wider society, not just that one single voice...so closing it all down and name calling etc is not going to help anything to progress...surely we have to hear worries/concerns/fears etc to be able to begin to tackle solutions...

[Cal.]

Of course ****ing not.

[Paula D]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

Should we have the right to take people's rights away? Yes people are entitled to have those views, no they are not acceptable but you can't fight oppression with oppression imo

Originally Posted by Cal.

Of course ****ing not.

Very simplistic view of the world.

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[Paula D]

Very well put.

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[Paula D]

Sorry Ann, that was a reply to Cal

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