[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Livia

She was wearing an Ann Summers Mrs Santa outfit.

When I worked for an MP, we had countless cases come to surgery, families who were appalled by the neglect of their loved ones in hospitals, almost always elderly people who were left hungry, dehydrated, covered in bedsores, suffering unexplained injuries injuries. Because the families had got themselves Power of Attorney for finance, but not for medical care, there was little they could do. Social services couldn't provide a care place, nor would they allow the person home, so they were kept in the geriatric ward and treated like scum. I never ever saw a letter of apology from a hospital.

...yeah I do get that completely, Liv...that she was wearing something which I guess is specifically associated with ‘dress up’ or cosplay or whatever it is...I’m not familiar with the correct term...hence the bloke in frock thing I said and what you were saying about males that can dress up for stags etc and parties..?...errors can be understandable if something is unclear or misunderstood..?...but surely that’s even more reason why these things should be raised to clarify...?...because the fact of it is, it is extremely sad important to the trans community and surely should be to all of us...


...and yes I know the NHS had lots of issues ..(...and many great strengths as well...)...but one thing does not have any bearing on the other of this issue in my view...it’s a completely separate thing and deserves its own ‘airing’ with the hospital administration..l

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Livia

She was wearing an Ann Summers Mrs Santa outfit.

I understand why in this case that could cause a misunderstanding - it IS feasible that a non-trans male might dress up as Mrs Claus "pantomime style" for a Christmas thing and if it was a simple misunderstanding then that's one thing. However, the claim being made is that AFTER clarification was made that it was indeed a trans individual, the staff member openly showed disdain / disgust saying "Urgh", being dismissive, etc. and that's what makes it a different story. You could then say "well it's one person's word against another" as when emotions are high people tend to see things differently than they were intended... but again, the claim and complaint here is that there are uninvolved / unbiased witnesses who saw how the staff member reacted but no one asked those witnesses before accepting the staff member's explanation that it was just a misunderstanding.

So I suppose, the main issue here isn't the initial misgendering which CAN obviously happen completely innocently. Hell, it happens to non-trans people! A co-worker of mine once bellowed "EXCUSE ME!! That's the ladies!!" across the room at a little old man... who turned out to be a little old lady with a pixie cut . The issue is how the staff member reacted after clarification was made. The professional thing to do is to apologise and then refer to that person as they wish to be. The extremely UNprofessional option is a sceptical eye-roll and "ugh!". Like I said if there are two sides to the story then there needs to be balance, but if there ARE indeed witnesses - it's a clear staff attitude problem and should be considered one by the service .

[bots]

Every time I venture out I could be offended by someone if I was minded too, and I would probably be perfectly justified in feeling that way too. The point being, if you go out looking to be offended you will be, but what is the point in letting others get you down? It's not a recipe for a mentally healthy life. To me it points to bigger issues that exist within the individual. Harsh maybe, but unless its behaviour repeated multiple times by the same individual, really, who cares.

[chuff me dizzy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Every time I venture out I could be offended by someone if I was minded too, and I would probably be perfectly justified in feeling that way too. The point being, if you go out looking to be offended you will be, but what is the point in letting others get you down? It's not a recipe for a mentally healthy life. Yo me it points to bigger issues that exist within the individual. Harsh maybe, but unless its behaviour repeated multiple times by the same individual, really, who cares.

You've hit the nail on the head

[user104658]

I stand by it too Ammi; the raging Mumsnet threads on trans rights are ridiculous transphobic witch-hunts that generate completely unreasonable levels of fear an paranoia, and threads on here on trans issues CAN and HAVE gone the same way

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I stand by it too Ammi; the raging Mumsnet threads on trans rights are ridiculous transphobic witch-hunts that generate completely unreasonable levels of fear an paranoia, and threads on here on trans issues CAN and HAVE gone the same way

Well, dismissing womens concerns as hysteria isn't very helpful to discussions either TS, is it?

*not to mention pretty sexist

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Well, dismissing womens concerns as hysteria isn't very helpful to discussions either TS, is it?

*not to mention pretty sexist

Is it not possible to point out that a concern is being expressed in an aggressive, sometimes needlessly offensive way, loaded down with some baseless assumptions, whilst still taking the core concern seriously? If I acknowledge that there's an issue, do I have to accept the unpleasant packaging of that concern? I'd say not, personally. Like I said, using sports as an example again, I'm in full agreement that women's sports need to be protected from potential problems but I'm not in support of the arguably transphobic rhetoric that often surrounds that message. I can't really say it any more clearly than that, I guess.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Is it not possible to point out that a concern is being expressed in an aggressive, sometimes needlessly offensive way, loaded down with some baseless assumptions, whilst still taking the core concern seriously? If I acknowledge that there's an issue, do I have to accept the unpleasant packaging of that concern? I'd say not, personally. Like I said, using sports as an example again, I'm in full agreement that women's sports need to be protected from potential problems but I'm not in support of the arguably transphobic rhetoric that often surrounds that message. I can't really say it any more clearly than that, I guess.

Of course, however you only ever see the bad side in womens concerns, never seen you say a word about the bad side in how some trans people express their views sometimes ( (not all obviously) (the cyclist who took Martina Navratolva(sp) to task is a very good example of that.)

Anyway, I'm actually going to leave it here with you TS because we've really covered this ground numerous times and clearly we're not making any new ground on it.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Of course, however you only ever see the bad side in womens concerns, never seen you say a word about the bad side in how some trans people express their views sometimes

I can only promise that if there was a transwoman on here doing that, I am confident that I would . But there isn't.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I stand by it too Ammi; the raging Mumsnet threads on trans rights are ridiculous transphobic witch-hunts that generate completely unreasonable levels of fear an paranoia, and threads on here on trans issues CAN and HAVE gone the same way

...maybe they do all of that...I’ve only ever glanced at Mumsnet so I wouldn’t know...but maybe there are quite a lot of raging people on there hunting the witches etc with their fear and their paranoia...?...but if that’s all you see and you’re not listening and absorbing because of that...?...then I would guess that you’re probably missing some very good points and concerns which should be raised...not dismissed...it’s exactly the same as this..’..there are more important things so let’s just dismiss this concern’...that’s happened in this discussion/thread surely...?...yes my friend it is...exactly the same ....

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Ammi

...maybe they do all of that...I’ve only ever glanced at Mumsnet so I wouldn’t know...but maybe there are quite a lot of raging people on there hunting the witches etc with their fear and their paranoia...?...but if that’s all you see and you’re not listening and absorbing because of that...?...then I would guess that you’re probably missing some very good points and concerns which should be raised...not dismissed...it’s exactly the same as this..’..there are more important things so let’s just dismiss this concern’...that’s happened in this discussion/thread surely...?...yes my friend it is...exactly the same ....

I can only refer you to the above example about sports which there was another large thread on that you missed, Ammi. The core concern wasn't dismissed by anyone - I think literally everyone agreed on that concern, yet an argument erupted over the clear anger / distaste towards transwomen that accompanied that concern.

[Northern Monkey]

It’s a mine field these days all this transgender stuff.Soon staff at public services will just turn around and run away if they see a transgender incase they get something wrong.....Literal transphobia.

[Cherie]

The only other thing I can add is its probably better not to walk around in Ann Summers gear in public if you want to be taken seriously, especially during panto season