[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Cherie

so the police don't arrest white people in error now

Yes the message came from that IP address, a 12 year old has been arrested, but not charged, why are you so keen to move on? if he was a 30 year old living on his own I would say case closed, but its not quite that is it?

WHat on earth are you talking about?

Do you have other facts as you're already speculating? They arrested him so for now the case is progressing

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

WHat on earth are you talking about?

Do you have other facts as you're already speculating? They arrested him so for now the case is progressing

That it exactly what I am saying and which you took great issue with to begin with, he has not been charged so like anyone else arrested, he is innocent until proven otherwise, so it seems we have come full circle

I am not speculating about anything I was just offering up scenarios as to why it might not be as cut and dried as you were originally suggesting.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Cherie

[/B]

That it exactly what I am saying and which you took great issue with to begin with, he has not been charged so like anyone else arrested, he is innocent until proven otherwise, so it seems we have come full circle

I am not speculating about anything I was just offering up scenarios as to why it might not be as cut and dried as you were originally suggesting.

If he’s' innocent then he'll have his day in court and can tell the judge how even though the Ip matches his it wasnt him. Might be a difficult one to sell IMO.

You have not offered any scenarios, sorry?

[AnnieK]

I would imagine they have a pretty strong case to believe it was the child. If they have discovered the messages were sent from an IP at that house their first line of enquiry would have been with the person who pays the bill for the internet....or they have further investigated and found it to have been sent from a particular device....possibly phone / computer belonging to the child.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

I would imagine they have a pretty strong case to believe it was the child. If they have discovered the messages were sent from an IP at that house their first line of enquiry would have been with the person who pays the bill for the internet....or they have further investigated and found it to have been sent from a particular device....possibly phone / computer belonging to the child.

They arrested the wrong person initially in the case where the PC was killed during a quad bike theft so its not unknown for the police to knee jerk

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Cherie

They arrested the wrong person initially in the case where the PC was killed during a quad bike theft so its not unknown for the police to knee jerk

They do that dont they.

[Cherie]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

They do that dont they.

Yes they do?

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Cherie

They arrested the wrong person initially in the case where the PC was killed during a quad bike theft so its not unknown for the police to knee jerk

They are known for knee jerk reactions, I'm not doubting that. What I meant though was they wouldn't have got the ip address and immediately thought that the 12 year old was responsible. They must either have had evidence, confession or the parent's telling them it was the 12 year old to make the arrest surely? If my IP pinged a criminal offense with the police I assume as the bill.payer I would have to prove it wasn't me committing the crime initially rather than them come in and instinctively decide it was the kid in the house.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

They are known for knee jerk reactions, I'm not doubting that. What I meant though was they wouldn't have got the ip address and immediately thought that the 12 year old was responsible. They must either have had evidence, confession or the parent's telling them it was the 12 year old to make the arrest surely? If my IP pinged a criminal offense with the police I assume as the bill.payer I would have to prove it wasn't me committing the crime initially rather than them come in and instinctively decide it was the kid in the house.

Or maybe they blamed the kid thinking that he wouldn't get in trouble over it hhmmmm They'd be right scumbags to do that though (but when you look at what was sent to that football player, it wouldn't be a stretch to think that they are)

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Or maybe they blamed the kid thinking that he wouldn't get in trouble over it hhmmmm They'd be right scumbags to do that though (but when you look at what was sent to that football player, it wouldn't be a stretch to think that they are)

It's a good point because as has been said, a 12 year old doesn't start posting racist abuse without being raised with that attitude (or at least by people who don't care enough to identify and address attitudes they're getting elsewhere, if it's coming from a friendship group). That being the case, I'd suggest it's perfectly plausible that the comments were posted by an adult and blamed on the 12 year old because the consequences are less likely to be severe (criminal charges, loss of employment etc.)

Either way, even assuming they did come from him, I personally think it's a stretch too far to brand a 12 year old "a racist" and to take any action other than an attempt at education. 12 ffs. They have absolutely no idea what they're doing or saying, it's becoming increasingly common to project adult motivations on kids these days and it's really troubling. Again, the -only- time it's appropriate to take further legal action against a child is when physical violence is involved.

Politicised winky-faces and whataboutery in a case involving a child is in very poor taste, is all I'll say. But hey, it's 2020.

[Nicky91]

racist behaviour should not be tolerated, no matter what age

however i would not make it a jail sentence, given it regards a 12 yr old here, you can still try to educate this kid on how wrong racism is

[GiRTh]

Lots of comments regarding re-education. Would that be for just the child or the whole family, as we seem to have a consensus that this child may not be fully responsible. If the attitudes are so ingrained in the child then how would that help if they are still growing up in a toxic environment?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

Lots of comments regarding re-education. Would that be for just the child or the whole family, as we seem to have a consensus that this child may not be fully responsible. If the attitudes are so ingrained in the child then how would that help if they are still growing up in a toxic environment?

Yeah that's what I was saying, the kid is 12, it's more than likely that he got those attitudes from his family and imo as he's 12 the parents should be responsible for him and so should also be looked at as to why he's not being supervised online and why he has those views in the first place, he didn't just wake up one morning and decide he's a racist, that's learned from somewhere

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yeah that's what I was saying, the kid is 12, it's more than likely that he got those attitudes from his family and imo as he's 12 the parents should be responsible for him and so should also be looked at as to why he's not being supervised online and why he has those views in the first place, he didn't just wake up one morning and decide he's a racist, that's learned from somewhere

And my point is re-education for the whole family will never happen or be met with a great deal of resistance. Cant see his family saying 'Yeah we're horribly racist but we're gonna stop now we've been caught.

The child has a few decisions to make in the next few years so good luck to him but for this incident we must talk about more than re-education

[user104658]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

Lots of comments regarding re-education. Would that be for just the child or the whole family, as we seem to have a consensus that this child may not be fully responsible. If the attitudes are so ingrained in the child then how would that help if they are still growing up in a toxic environment?

Because it shows them an alternative viewpoint at an early stage so that when they are old enough to start forming their own thoughts and opinions rather than just parroting their parents, they're more likely to actually give these things some thought and diverge from their parents attitudes. Plenty of people who were raised in families with shocking beliefs grow up not sharing, and even vocally rejecting, those beliefs. That's usually because they've had SOME alternate input in those formative years that has gotten at least a foothold (friends, parents of friends, an aunt or uncle who is very different to their parents, etc.). The spark of a different way of thinking can be enough when it comes to those introspective years. Even if they still largely mirror their parents attitudes when they're young.

Punishing, persecuting and shaming on the other hand results in bitterness and rejection of those alternate views and just makes it more likely that they'll be carbon-copies as adults.

Originally Posted by GiRTh

for this incident we must talk about more than re-education

Why? You've yet to give one reason at all, let alone a good one.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Because it shows them an alternative viewpoint at an early stage so that when they are old enough to start forming their own thoughts and opinions rather than just parroting their parents, they're more likely to actually give these things some thought and diverge from their parents attitudes. Plenty of people who were raised in families with shocking beliefs grow up not sharing, and even vocally rejecting, those beliefs. That's usually because they've had SOME alternate input in those formative years that has gotten at least a foothold (friends, parents of friends, an aunt or uncle who is very different to their parents, etc.). The spark of a different way of thinking can be enough when it comes to those introspective years. Even if they still largely mirror their parents attitudes when they're young.

Punishing, persecuting and shaming on the other hand results in bitterness and rejection of those alternate views and just makes it more likely that they'll be carbon-copies as adults.



Why? You've yet to give one reason at all, let alone a good one.

We must talk about more than re-education because the resources are just not there for someone so young and who appears to be so far ingrained. Also, if the motivation for this re-education comes due to this incident then I doubt it’ll work. The most racist person I ever met was not a crusty old geezer but a teenager who genuinely had abhorrent thoughts about minorities that he’d heard from just one family member all his life., The other members of his family were fine but he was strangely drawn to his sick uncle who hated everyone. What do we do in that case? Who do we educate? That guy was 15 BTW. Last I heard he was in prison.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

And my point is re-education for the whole family will never happen or be met with a great deal of resistance. Cant see his family saying 'Yeah we're horribly racist but we're gonna stop now we've been caught.

The child has a few decisions to make in the next few years so good luck to him but for this incident we must talk about more than re-education

I know, I know. It's a really horrible situation and really saddening when you see a child that age come out with such ugly words and such disrespect for another person who absolutely doesn't deserve it. I just think at that age parents should be held accountable as well as the child

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

I know, I know. It's a really horrible situation and really saddening when you see a child that age come out with such ugly words and such disrespect for another person who absolutely doesn't deserve it. I just think at that age parents should be held accountable as well as the child

Totally agree.

[GiRTh]

The carrot or the stick is a difficult decision for any child.

In the case I mentioned the family shut the racist uncle down when he talked but the kid was drawn to him. Other than cutting him off from the uncle he loved not much they could have done. Not much can be done so maybe a spell inside a bit earlier might have done him good. Who knows? Obviously everyone is different but to just say ‘Lets re-educate’ sounds like a lot of nothing to me.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

The carrot or the stick is a difficult decision for any child.

Only if you know absolutely nothing about child psychology.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Only if you know absolutely nothing about child psychology.

Well, it depends what I meant by stick but don’t query that just make a snarky point eh?

Point taken so tell us all, how we ‘re-educate’ a whole family or a family with one racist or an extended family of racists or family who are just told not to mix with other races. Its much more than just saying ‘Lets re-educate’. Re-educate How?

[user104658]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

Well, it depends what I meant by stick but don’t query that just make a snarky point eh?

Point taken so tell us all, how we ‘re-educate’ a whole family or a family with one racist or an extended family of racists or family who are just told not to mix with other races. It's much more than just saying ‘Lets re-educate’. Re-educate How?

I don't know what else you could have meant by stick... the "carrot or stick" metaphor is an allegory for "reward or punishment". "Use the stick" means punish, there isn't an alternative meaning.

Also I've been quite clear that it's not about educating the entire family, it's about introducing concepts to the child early to increase the likelihood that they'll have different thoughts and feelings about the issue when they're old enough for real independent critical thought (not 12). We (for good reason) don't take action with "whole families" based on our assumptions about the actions of one family member. If one of those family members does something in future, or if it's shown that they were more involved in this case than they're admitting, then appropriate action should be taken against those family members. If they're adults that may well be completely different to the action you'd take with a 12 year old.

[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I don't know what else you could have meant by stick... the "carrot or stick" metaphor is an allegory for "reward or punishment". "Use the stick" means punish, there isn't an alternative meaning.

Also I've been quite clear that it's not about educating the entire family, it's about introducing concepts to the child early to increase the likelihood that they'll have different thoughts and feelings about the issue when they're old enough for real independent critical thought (not 12). We (for good reason) don't take action with "whole families" based on our assumptions about the actions of one family member. If one of those family members does something in future, or if it's shown that they were more involved in this case than they're admitting, then appropriate action should be taken against those family members. If they're adults that may well be completely different to the action you'd take with a 12 year old.

What if you get a teenager who insists on hanging out with his racist uncle. How do you stop him? Still on the same case BTW. How do you tell someone that their beloved uncle is a wrong un? You make it sound easy trust me it aint. Particularly when you meet someone who thinks the racist uncle isn’t all that bad, considering al things etc and is basically twisting themselves into knots to justify his behaviour and language. Is it as easy as you make it sound? Not in my expereince
Your ideas are sound in theory but suggestion in some of the people I’ve seen simply wont do it all. And I’m not talking about 30 years old either. Teenagers and mid twenties

[user104658]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

In the case I mentioned the family shut the racist uncle down when he talked but the kid was drawn to him. Other than cutting him off from the uncle he loved not much they could have done.

In my opinion, if an influence on a child is THAT toxic then absolutely yes he should have been taken out of frequent contact with that family member long before it became an issue or he developed an attachment.

maybe a spell inside a bit earlier might have done him good. Who knows?

Literally every study of child incarceration shows that the result is a child (and then adult) who is significantly MORE likely to re-offend and have their views and attitudes compounded by being locked up with, and inevitably making friends with, like-minded people. It's really not a "who knows". This stuff is well studied, but I know it's more fashionable to go with gut feelings than established academic observations. Again... after all... it's 2020.

There are examples of youths being incarcerated and coming out of it for the better. That would be when the incarceration involves large amounts of therapy, training and education and is not punitive.