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Cherry Christmas · 04-05-2021, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain.Remy

Black and white to some probably, but not to all. I mean, I'm a sports guy myself, been practicing for over 20 years and to me it's not a closed topic nor an easy one.
It's a much complex one. The fact that there are a lot of discussions around it shows it's not an easy topic and there are a lot of emotions around it.
I'm not arguing on whether trans people should be allowed or not, but we just can't brush off such a sensitive social issue by saying "This has always been like that so it can't be changed". Society is changing, perceptions are changing etc So let's all try to listen to what everybody has to say in a gently manner.

That's the problem though isn't it, as soon as women born as women raise an issue regarding competing against women born as men, they are shut down and called Terfs when really what they want is a level playing field if you will pardon the pun! If it could be discussed at all without the name calling that would be progress

Christmas Dynasnow · 04-05-2021, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain.Remy

Black and white to some probably, but not to all. I mean, I'm a sports guy myself, been practicing for over 20 years and to me it's not a closed topic nor an easy one.
It's a much complex one. The fact that there are a lot of discussions around it shows it's not an easy topic and there are a lot of emotions around it.
I'm not arguing on whether trans people should be allowed or not, but we just can't brush off such a sensitive social issue by saying "This has always been like that so it can't be changed". Society is changing, perceptions are changing etc So let's all try to listen to what everybody has to say in a gently manner.

what isnt changing is the size and strength difference between men and women

so im afraid that dictates this

Oliver_W · 04-05-2021, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain.Remy

Black and white to some probably, but not to all. I mean, I'm a sports guy myself, been practicing for over 20 years and to me it's not a closed topic nor an easy one.
It's a much complex one. The fact that there are a lot of discussions around it shows it's not an easy topic and there are a lot of emotions around it.
I'm not arguing on whether trans people should be allowed or not, but we just can't brush off such a sensitive social issue by saying "This has always been like that so it can't be changed". Society is changing, perceptions are changing etc So let's all try to listen to what everybody has to say in a gently manner.

No-one would argue that sports should have barriers to entry such as skill and ability, but sex should also be an accepted barrier. Biological women have no chance against transwomen in competitive sports.

Tom4784 · 04-05-2021, 03:10 PM

Yet she's competed in female golf tournaments herself. Bit hypocritical.

I think what she's saying is ultimately true, unfortunately. Trans women innately have an unfair advantage in female sport while sadly, trans men will have a disadvantage in male sport.

The only real solution I can think of is to have trans men and women divisions which feels exclusionary and unfeasible atm considering there aren't many trans athletes, but it's the only way I can think of that's fair to all involved. Trans athletes won't have to be excluded from sports because of innate advantages or disadvantages, and cisgendered women won't feel pushed out either.

ChristmasNeeve · 04-05-2021, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Yet she's competed in female golf tournaments herself. Bit hypocritical.

I think what she's saying is ultimately true, unfortunately. Trans women innately have an unfair advantage in female sport while sadly, trans men will have a disadvantage in male sport.

The only real solution I can think of is to have trans men and women divisions which feels exclusionary and unfeasible atm considering there aren't many trans athletes, but it's the only way I can think of that's fair to all involved. Trans athletes won't have to be excluded from sports because of innate advantages or disadvantages, and cisgendered women won't feel pushed out either.

Oh I didn't know that, that is pretty hypocritical alright

Shaun · 04-05-2021, 03:23 PM

It has to be a sport by sport basis, really, because there are some where physical differences are so minimal. And then there's team sports... would one member of a (football/hockey/netball/basketball) team, who is trans, make that much of an impact on the entire team game?

The whole issue doesn't take into consideration women (who are "born women") being naturally assigned more testosterone, wider hips, broader shoulders etc. being pit against other women. Or men with more oestrogen, slimmer hips, longer legs, etc. If you take some of the greatest athletes of all time - like Michael Phelps for example - he is basically superhuman and not at all comparable to an average man. His chest size and arm length is colossal. Are those instances still classed as a level playing field? Because right now you could argue that every long-distance or marathon runner has very little "femininity" compared to most.

Like TS said, sports are, by definition, exclusive of most body types and physiology... but I suppose the problem is athletic trans people not having any place to compete, not having any career prospects whatsoever, and being rejected from both gendered fields, and the whole subject seems to heading down the path of "stick them in with the paralympics then", as if trans people are a disability, or possess that sense of "otherness" that alienates them from so much of society. It's unfair either way.

ChristmasNeeve · 04-05-2021, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaun

It has to be a sport by sport basis, really, because there are some where physical differences are so minimal. And then there's team sports... would one member of a (football/hockey/netball/basketball) team, who is trans, make that much of an impact on the entire team game?

The whole issue doesn't take into consideration women (who are "born women") being naturally assigned more testosterone, wider hips, broader shoulders etc. being pit against other women. Or men with more oestrogen, slimmer hips, longer legs, etc. If you take some of the greatest athletes of all time - like Michael Phelps for example - he is basically superhuman and not at all comparable to an average man. His chest size and arm length is colossal. Are those instances still classed as a level playing field? Because right now you could argue that every long-distance or marathon runner has very little "femininity" compared to most.

Like TS said, sports are, by definition, exclusive of most body types and physiology... but I suppose the problem is athletic trans people not having any place to compete, not having any career prospects whatsoever, and being rejected from both gendered fields, and the whole subject seems to heading down the path of "stick them in with the paralympics then", as if trans people are a disability, or possess that sense of "otherness" that alienates them from so much of society. It's unfair either way.

Obviously there are men and women who are naturally physically superior to other men and women but we're talking here about for the most part biological men are physically stronger, faster etc than biological women, all you need do to see by how much is look at men's records compared to women's, it's the whole reason sex is segregated in the first place because if it wasn't there would be very very few women being good enough to play in mixed sex sports.

In regards to team sports I do think one player can make a massive difference and i do think 1 player could cause more serious injuries to other players too

I get how it's not ideal for genuine transwomen to not be allowed compete with women but it just takes the fairness out of it for biological women to allow transwomen play not least because it leaves the door wide open for people to abuse it (and people would when money and notoriety is involved) I'm not going to post a list of cases where this has already started happening in women's sports because I'm sure I've posted them before

Oliver_W · 04-05-2021, 03:29 PM

The most fair way is probably for transwomen to compete in male teams. Have the sex divisions be divided by ... sex.

Christmas Dynasnow · 04-05-2021, 03:34 PM

How many actual people are we talking about here it must be miniscule?

Conzors · 04-05-2021, 10:13 PM

Hmmmm very tricky one.
I think it’s disrespectful to keep calling someone by their biological gender because it’s what they were born with, things change and people feel differently and if there are ways for people to feel true to themselves then we should allow that and respect them.

On the other hand, sports categories are separated into men and women because of biology, and although trans people want to escape from their biological selves, it also has to be fair amongst everyone. If a trans male was to complete in a male team sport they would have a disadvantage as they are competing with cis males who are, biologically generally, more muscular, quicker, stronger etc - so it wouldn’t be fair on the trans male here.

Trans females compete in cis female sports gives the disadvantage to the other females who have trained hard to be a pro I’m their field, again down to genetics, so wouldn’t be fair on the cis females.

It’s such a thin line and a grey area and most sports empires are scared to address in fear of saying something incorrect and tbh I don’t think there ever will be a resolution, unless you split it into four:
CIS MEN
CIS WOMEN
TRANS MEN
TRANS WOMEM

But who’s saying there will be enough competitors on the trans teams, because like @goldheart said, the case for most trans people is not that they wanna compete in their genders sport.

ChristmasNeeve · 05-05-2021, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conzors

Hmmmm very tricky one.
I think it’s disrespectful to keep calling someone by their biological gender because it’s what they were born with, things change and people feel differently and if there are ways for people to feel true to themselves then we should allow that and respect them.

On the other hand, sports categories are separated into men and women because of biology, and although trans people want to escape from their biological selves, it also has to be fair amongst everyone. If a trans male was to complete in a male team sport they would have a disadvantage as they are competing with cis males who are, biologically generally, more muscular, quicker, stronger etc - so it wouldn’t be fair on the trans male here.

Trans females compete in cis female sports gives the disadvantage to the other females who have trained hard to be a pro I’m their field, again down to genetics, so wouldn’t be fair on the cis females.

It’s such a thin line and a grey area and most sports empires are scared to address in fear of saying something incorrect and tbh I don’t think there ever will be a resolution, unless you split it into four:
CIS MEN
CIS WOMEN
TRANS MEN
TRANS WOMEM

But who’s saying there will be enough competitors on the trans teams, because like @goldheart said, the case for most trans people is not that they wanna compete in their genders sport.

I don't identify as a cis woman, I identify as a biological woman.

user104658 · 05-05-2021, 10:07 AM

Tennis is pretty much the only sport I voluntarily watch for fun, as an interesting tidbit of TS info

. But just the final stages of the big 4.

ChristmasNeeve · 05-05-2021, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

Tennis is pretty much the only sport I voluntarily watch for fun, as an interesting tidbit of TS info

. But just the final stages of the big 4.

Was never into tennis at all, definitely more of a combat sport fan myself

Christmas Dynasnow · 07-05-2021, 06:19 PM

Fury over decision to let transsexual enter Tokyo Olympics: New Zealand's female
weightlifters reveal they are 'told to be quiet' when they complain that a woman 'will lose
out'

New Zealand transgender athlete Laurel Hubbard is set to compete at Olympics
Hubbard competed in men's weightlifting competitions before transitioning
But former weightlifter Tracey Lambrechs has said women are being silenced
Those that complain, she says, are being 'told to be quiet' if they voice concern

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Olympics.html

top comment by miles:

I may be wrong but I have never heard of females who have trans to
males wanting to enter male competitions. I wonder why that is, is it
because they know they wouldn't stand a chance of winning.

Oliver_W · 07-05-2021, 07:53 PM

New Zealand are almost guaranteed a Gold medal in the "female" category, then...

Elliot · 08-05-2021, 10:31 PM

Didn’t she literally kill someone and get away with it bc she’s rich

ChristmasNeeve · 10-05-2021, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elliot

Didn’t she literally kill someone and get away with it bc she’s rich

It was a car crash, presumably that was an accident?

Christmas Lights · 10-05-2021, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It was a car crash, presumably that was an accident?

I don't know much about it,but I assumed it was an accident aswell.

user104658 · 10-05-2021, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It was a car crash, presumably that was an accident?

Quote:

In February 2015, Jenner was involved in a fatal multiple-vehicle collision on the Pacific Coast Highway in Malibu, California. Kim Howe, an animal rights activist and actress, was killed when Jenner's SUV ran into Howe's car. Accounts of the sequence of collisions have varied, as have the number of people injured.[133] Prosecutors declined to file criminal charges, but three civil lawsuits were filed against Jenner by Howe's stepchildren and drivers of other cars involved in the collision.[134][135] Jessica Steindorff, a Hollywood agent who was hit by Howe's car, settled her case in December 2015. Howe's stepchildren settled their case in January 2016.[136] Financial details were not disclosed in either case.[137]

From good old wikipedia. It seems like there wasn't enough evidence that she was at fault for prosecutors to press charges, but some of the victims felt that she was at fault and filed civil lawsuits for damages which were settled out of court (so unknown how a court would have ruled on those too).

So definitely an accident but in terms of being at fault, an "unknown, not enough evidence either way" situation I think.

ChristmasNeeve · 10-05-2021, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

From good old wikipedia. It seems like there wasn't enough evidence that she was at fault for prosecutors to press charges, but some of the victims felt that she was at fault and filed civil lawsuits for damages which were settled out of court (so unknown how a court would have ruled on those too).

So definitely an accident but in terms of being at fault, an "unknown, not enough evidence either way" situation I think.

Being at fault doesn't stop it being an accident though (unless she was drink driving or something like that?) But she would surely have been Breathalyzed

user104658 · 10-05-2021, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Being at fault doesn't stop it being an accident though (unless she was drink driving or something like that?) But she would surely have been Breathalyzed

Yeah and (I would have thought) definitely charged if there was proof of intoxication or reckless driving or anything like that. TBH sounds like she just ****ed up/made an error which obviously happens to all drivers at some point, but sadly someone died.

Then again, 25+ years ago my own grandmother was killed by a driver doing 60mph into a village over a blind summit which is pretty unambiguously reckless to me, but they didn't prosecute there either! So I understand families feeling differently I guess.