[Tom]

No, its neither of your poll options its a popularity contest. In series 1, Steve was not the best vocally. In series 2, Shayne wasn't the best vocally altough he was the most marketable. In series 3, Leona was both marketable and the best vocally. This year, Rhydian is not the best vocally, IMO Niki was but coming from a biased opinion from someone who doesn't like his classical style. Leon, Hope and Alisha have the most marketability.

It is a cross of the two meaning it is a popularity contest, because the most popular person will obviously win. If Same Difference turn out to be the winenrs, then it clearly isn't a talent contest.

Having a talent does not necessarily equal a career, past flop talent show winners are good examples. Also, you do not necessarily have to have talent for a semi or successful career eg The Cheeky Girls and The Spice Girls.

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Tom_
No, its neither of your poll options its a popularity contest.

That's a rather obvious statement to make. My point is, it's supposed to be a talent contest but most of the talent was not put through or has been voted out.

[Nicky.]

Personally i think it is stil talent, and a little bit on likeability ..

Coz Rhydian,at start, wasnt popular at all, but after 1st nite or so he his fave to win..

[Wasted]

I think the show should be open to various genres and not just pop. Why not have other genres, like rock, or maybe even opera? Paul Potts has sold millions of CDs so who's to say Rhydian can't? Chart positions don't matter if the sales are fantastic, so I don't think it matters whether or not Rhydian can reach the top 10 as long as he sells well to his target audience, which would be opera-lovers.

I think Tom has a point, popularity is definitely a factor as well. Leon and Same Difference aren't the best singers we've had this year but they're definitely likable enough to have a good fanbase.

I do not remember Simon Cowell specifically saying that the show is only directed at pop music. However, he has stressed many times that this is a singing competition, and Rhydian can certainly sing.

[Red Moon]

Originally posted by GiRTh
If Rhydian doesn't win then surely the other options are much worse. The show would lose all its credability one of the other two won. Rhydian has got to win.

If Rhydian does win they might as well rename the show and call it "Britain's Got Talent" because it will have lost all credibility. At least the other two acts could be moulded into pop stars.

Originally posted by GiRTh
I understand what you mean but surely talent is more important than market, hence this thread. If Rhydian doesn't win then should the mediocre Leon or SD walk away with the recording contract?

Yes but it has to be the right talent for the format of the show. That is the point. I watch the x factor because it is a popular music talent show. If I want to watch opera singers I would turn over to some other show that showcases their talents or a more general talent show such as "Britain's Got Talent".

Originally posted by Jack
If the X Factor was just about pop music then why would they let Rhydian get this far? Why did they put The Unconventionals through last year? The producers have clearly shown some bias in Rhydian and they wouldn't have done that if they didn't think he conformed to the competition.

Because it is Simon's Show and he has an interest in getting Opera into the popular music arena. He has been trying to do it for years. That is why these acts get through even if it ruins the format of the show. Simon is the Producer. Simon is the Boss. Simon is the X-Factor!

Originally posted by Dan_
But if that's what the public like,which they clearly do, then why deny him the chance at winning the show? He's got a support base who will no doubt go out and buy his album regardless of it not being pop.What is the problem then?

But the show is to find people that can be true stars in the popular music industry like Leona. Not a one album wonder who people bored with just after New Years Day. Surely the winner should have potential in the popular music industry and a career.

[Dan_]

Originally posted by Red Moon

If Rhydian does win they might as well rename the show and call it "Britain's Got Talent" because it will have lost all credibility. At least the other two acts could be moulded into pop stars.

Yes but it has to be the right talent for the format of the show. That is the point. I watch the x factor because it is a popular music talent show. If I want to watch opera singers I would turn over to some other show that showcases their talents or a more general talent show such as "Britain's Got Talent".

Because it is Simon's Show and he has an interest in getting Opera into the popular music arena. He has been trying to do it for years. That is why these acts get through even if it ruins the format of the show. Simon is the Producer. Simon is the Boss. Simon is the X-Factor!

But the show is to find people that can be true stars in the popular music industry like Leona. Not a one album wonder who people bored with just after New Years Day. Surely the winner should have potential in the popular music industry and a career.

It's called the X-Factor, not pop idol though.Where have they ever said that they are looking for just a pop star? If they didn't want opera on the show, they would have never have allowed for the likes of Rhydian and G4 to go through.

There's people who have survived a lot longer than just one album by doing Opera.I believe Rhydian can go on and have long term success in the album charts.

[Red Moon]

Originally posted by Dan_
It's called the X-Factor, not pop idol though.Where have they ever said that they are looking for just a pop star? If they didn't want opera on the show, they would have never have allowed for the likes of Rhydian and G4 to go through.

Like I said Simon has this silly idea in his head that Opera can become main stream and make it into the popular music world. He is the the X Factor. If he wants that sort of music on the show he can have it, who is going to stop him? The producers? Well he is the producer.

However Opera as a main force in music disappeared back at the start of the last century and then it can be argued that it wasn't popular even then. I'm no music historian but in its hay day most of the population would have been more interested in folk music than opera which was the music of the aristocracy.

The only people that had a cure for this problem were the French and they chopped all their heads off. Well done to the French for once. The only problem was that the revolution created a plutocracy which then loved Opera as they aspired to become the new aristocracy. However this time they forgot to chop off their own heads now they were in power.

Originally posted by Dan_
There's people who have survived a lot longer than just one album by doing Opera.I believe Rhydian can go on and have long term success in the album charts.

Now you then have to compare like with like and Rhydian is at best only an average opera singer. In fact in the only review I found from an opera he was in he is at best uninspiring. Yes, his fame from the X Factor will create at best a couple of albums but after that he is done. There are far better Opera singers out there in the market place. In Opera terms he is a very raw talent that still needs a lot of work.

But getting back to the point. The X Factor was created from pop idol so that Simon had control of the show and got a big pay out from the profits. The fact it was born from pop idol leads naturally leads to the assumption the show is about popular music. If it wasn't why isn't Rhydian singing classical opera pieces to which his voice is more suited rather than covers of pop songs that happen to be able to sung with his singing style?

If you look back through the creation of the show and you find that Simon took the Pop Idol formula and merely opened it out to anyone aged 16 and above. Simon himself said talking about pop idol:

Simon Cowell (2004 just before the first X Factor show)
"I am bored with just watching 22- or 23-year-olds coming on to a talent show and saying 'make me famous'.

"It's more interesting opening it up to everyone so you can tell more stories."

And because the format of the show was almost the same as pop idol he had to settle out of court for copyright infringement. Now that makes it a popular music show.

The thing is the show was designed to create people like Leona and not Rhydian and that is why it is no longer the popular music talent show it was. It's need to go back to it roots and ditch Simon's mad cap idea's that opera can be popular because it never was popular in the first place.

[Captain.Remy]

Message original : Dan_

It's called the X-Factor, not pop idol though.Where have they ever said that they are looking for just a pop star? If they didn't want opera on the show, they would have never have allowed for the likes of Rhydian and G4 to go through.

There's people who have survived a lot longer than just one album by doing Opera.I believe Rhydian can go on and have long term success in the album charts.

Thanks for agreeing with me, for 2 months I'm trying to explain that the X Factor is not a pop music contest and everyone should be allowed.

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Red Moon

If Rhydian does win they might as well rename the show and call it "Britain's Got Talent" because it will have lost all credibility. At least the other two acts could be moulded into pop stars.

When you say 'pop' I take it you mean a chart star. Why does the winner have to appeal to the charts? For instance, Carrie Underwood won American Idol 4th season. She is predominantly a country singer who has little chance of ever making the top ten in this country. Yet, she's sold million of records and won loads of awards. If she had auditions for X-factor should she have been put through? Many people feel she should not because she doesn't appeal to the pop charts. Taylor Hicks won the fifth season of American Idol. He is a singer with a very bluesy soulful kind of voice. I doubt if he'd make the top ten in this country either. How broad is this definition of pop that we are talking about? Should these clearly great singers be rejected simply because they dont fit into the genre that the show is aimed at? Surely we dont want a bunch of pretty 20-25 year olds who all sound the same.

[Red Moon]

Originally posted by GiRTh
When you say 'pop' I take it you mean a chart star. Why does the winner have to appeal to the charts? For instance, Carrie Underwood won American Idol 4th season. She is predominantly a country singer who has little chance of ever making the top ten in this country. Yet, she's sold million of records and won loads of awards. If she had auditions for X-factor should she have been put through? Many people feel she should not. Taylor Hicks won the fifth season of American Idol. He is a singer with a very bluesy soulful kind of voice. I doubt if he'd make the top ten in this country either. How broad is this definition of pop that we are talkng about? Should these clearly great singers be rejected simply because they dont fit into the genre that the show is aimed at? Surely we dont want a bunch of pretty 20-25 year olds who all sound the same.

You could argue that country music in the US has a big following unlike opera in the UK.

Like all those people that thought Carrie Underwood shouldn't have been put through I feel the same about Rhydian and the X-Factor. He shouldn't have been allowed to boot camp however talented he is. It's just the wrong show.

I define popular music as music that has a mass market. Clearly by being a singer that sings in a style that has limited appeal you limit your target market and exclude yourself from the mass market. Popular music singers will tend to be rather similar, that is the nature of popular music and the format of the X-Factor and it's use of covers and the voting system means that we will get 18-25 year olds who all sound the same.

[Billy]

What about Charlotte Church, she is a very talented opera singer and has sold loads of records

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Red Moon
You could argue that country music in the US has a big following unlike opera in the UK.

Country music is a big market but it does not have mass appeal. I doubt Carries records are being bought in South Central LA. Her music is very genre specific.

Originally posted by Red Moon
Like all those people that thought Carrie Underwood shouldn't have been put through I feel the same about Rhydian and the X-Factor. He shouldn't have been allowed to boot camp however talented he is. It's just the wrong show.

I think you've misunderstood me. I'm asking - if a potentially outstanding country singer auditioned for X-factor should they be put through? A country music singer would never make the charts in this country or should they be put through simply because they have outstanding talent. Should the judges be thinking about the money or the music?

Originally posted by Red Moon
I define popular music as music that has a mass market. Clearly by being a singer that sings in a style that has limited appeal you limit your target market and exclude yourself from the mass market. Popular music singers will tend to be rather similar, that is the nature of popular music and the format of the X-Factor and it's use of covers and the voting system means that we will get 18-25 year olds who all sound the same.

Country doesn't have a mass market in this country but world wide they'd clean up. I likethe variety of the X-Factor even though a young man is likely to won it most years. I believe the most talented singers should be put through regardless of their musical style. I dont want a bunch of pretty singer who all sound the same. Thats why I started this thread. I think in this series the producers have thought too much about the marketability and not enough about the talent. That's why I want Same Difference - probably the least talented of the final 12 - to win.

[James]

I think the makeup of the final twelve shows that talent isn't necessarily the most important factor. It is hard to believe that these were the best twelve acts out of the tens of thousands that audition. And I don't think that Leon and SD are up to that much out of the final three.

There's likely a lot of talented contestants who don't even get to see the judges at the first stage because they don't have some sort of tabloid 'human-interest' story. And also the judges are mainly business people in the music-industry and you get the impression they don't know an awful lot about music or music production.

Also, in the live shows, they have used a lot of gimmicks with the staging of the performances, with dancers and props and stuff like that and that distracts from how much, or how little, ability the contestants have.

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by James
Also, in the live shows, they have used a lot of gimmicks with the staging of the performances, with dancers and props and stuff like that and that distracts from how much, or how little, ability the contestants have.

I've commented on that before. If anything the gimmicks ruin the performances of the stronger singers. Only the mediocre acts like Same Difference have benefitted from all the dancers.

[Red Moon]

Originally posted by GiRTh

Country music is a big market but it does not have mass appeal. I doubt Carries records are being bought in South Central LA........

........That's why I want Same Difference - probably the least talented of the final 12 - to win.

Country music doesn't have mass appeal, especially in the UK where it as popular as opera if that, and that is why it shouldn't be a feature on a Pop Idol type show such as the X Factor in the UK.

If a country and western singer did turn up for the auditions and make it through to the boot camp I would expect them to sing popular music songs from that point on. The same goes for any other type of singer, be they folk, jazz, blues, rap or opera. I wouldn't allow them to pick songs that just happened to fit their limited vocal as has happened in this years show. I would expect them to sing the same types of music as anyone else.

If you going to give a prize that is worth 1 million pounds you are going to want to see some return on your investment. For that reason alone you will pick people who you feel will have a chance of providing that return or at least breaking even. In order to get the money back you are need someone who can achieve a degree of success in the the popular music charts in the short to medium term. However in order to have that success they have to have enough talent to be able sing a tune reasonably well.

So the answer to the question "Should the judges be thinking about the money or the music?" is both. It those people that fit that sing and make money that actually have the X Factor. Not those with just talent.

If a talented was to audition who the judges felt they couldn't make money from they wouldn't make the show because they wouldn't have the X Factor.

One last point if the X Factor was a general singing contest surely it would be better to try it singer in a number of different styles such as classical, jazz, blues, folk, country and western, rap, pop, disco and so on. So you could truly compare like with like each week.

[GiRTh]

Country music may not have mass apeal in the UK, but world wide it is one of the biggest selling genres. Carrie Underwood has been by far the most successful winner of American Idol. If a singer of her genre and with her potential turned up for an audition for X-Factor, for me, they have to go through. Then I'd expect their mentor to showcase their talents. If the mentor gave them songs that they were not comfortable with then I'd be very disappointed. For me the show is about talent first and foremost. They should worry about the money at a later day. I know it's a somewhat romantic view but I think talent will have more longevity than marketable mediocrity.

[Red Moon]

But that makes it just a talent show and it more than that. If it just a talent show there would be no need for the recording contract. You could just have some prize money or a title to get people to take part.

It's a show about making a popular music singer that can then go on to a successful career in the music industry. In order to be successful you need to make money. It would be pointless to give the contract someone you knew were going nowhere and that has to be accessed at the auditions and at boot camp.

Anyone in the show should be made to select popular music covers to test their talent in this field. It allows the audience to judge like against like. In this years show you can't do that.

[GiRTh]

I agree but should the marketability be more important than the talent? I think this year it has been. Leon and SD are mediocre at best. Surely a more talented singer should have been in the final. This is why Rhydian MUST win. To give a millions pound recording contract to those pair of donuts would be a travesty.

[Dizzy]

Originally posted by GiRTh
I agree but should the marketability be more important than the talent? I think this year it has been. Leon and SD are mediocre at best. Surely a more talented singer should have been in the final. This is why Rhydian MUST win. To give a millions pound recording contract to those pair of donuts would be a travesty.

I completely agree. ;]
I mean c'mon... Leon or SD to win over Rhydian? It's stupid IMO. I think Rhydian has so much more talent than SD and Leon. =/

[Red Moon]

Originally posted by GiRTh
I agree but should the marketability be more important than the talent? I think this year it has been. Leon and SD are mediocre at best. Surely a more talented singer should have been in the final. This is why Rhydian MUST win. To give a millions pound recording contract to those pair of donuts would be a travesty.

No they should be at least equal but you have to have both to make it. If you have one without the other you shouldn't win.

[MarkWaldorf]

You probably only made this thread because you're so bitter about SD. They have a fan base, they've made the final. Your doubt won't change that. Give it over, jesus.

[Shaun]

Originally posted by Tom_
This year, Rhydian is not the best vocally, IMO Niki was but coming from a biased opinion from someone who doesn't like his classical style.

LMAO. Excluding Rhydian, Niki still didn't have the best voice this year. Especially when compared to Beverley, and I'd even say Leon has a better one than her.

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by MarkChap©
You probably only made this thread because you're so bitter about SD. They have a fan base, they've made the final. Your doubt won't change that. Give it over, jesus.

To be honest I really couldn't care less. Why do you put every objection down to bitterness and jealousy? Do you think the most talented people made the final then? I actually enjoyed most of SD performances but there is no way on this earth anyone will ever convince me that they have either the talent, or the total marketing package to be worthy winners of this competition. It would be a farce if those two won the competition and received the million pund contract. However, a part of me would find it quite funny if they won. That doesn't seem all that bitter to me.

[Dan_]

Originally posted by MarkChap©
You probably only made this thread because you're so bitter about SD. They have a fan base, they've made the final. Your doubt won't change that. Give it over, jesus.

So nobody is allowed to question the credibility of Same Difference?

[GiRTh]

Originally posted by Dan_

So nobody is allowed to question the credibility of Same Difference?

Indeed. Some people just have a pop because they can't stand to hear anyone make negative comments on anyone they like. I made this thread because I question some of the choice for the final 12. In this and other threads I have mentioned that Hope should not have been chosen over W4 and the Steph Woods should have got through. How on earth can anyone simply claim that I'm bitter or jealous of Same Difference. It's ridiculous.