[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Soldier Boy

As with the riots thread the mechanism and the reason isn't the same thing - and again I'd use the metaphor of seeing a flood and blaming the rain. Where we're at is a disaster but the path to getting here is an awful lot more complicated than "people are just bigots who don't like trans". And that's not even to say that a lot of those people don't exist. Sort of like... woodlice exist... and they're going to start crawling out from under your skirting board if you don't keep the floorboards dry, and they'll keep coming.

I'm not feeling very charitable about people after this weekend apparently .

Come on dude. No one has talked more about the nuance around these issues than we have, but there is no nuance about how this happened. It's not her first Olympics, yet this is the first problematic one. JK Rowling and her merry band of far right affiliates haven't shown a single curious thought on this.

I don't doubt that you see it as a complex issue, but you weren't the one screaming about her to begin with.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Come on dude. No one has talked more about the nuance around these issues than we have, but there is no nuance about how this happened. It's not her first Olympics, yet this is the first problematic one. JK Rowling and her merry band of far right affiliates haven't shown a single curious thought on this.

I don't doubt that you see it as a complex issue, but you weren't the one screaming about her to begin with.

I don't deny at all that a door has been left wide open to the "right", I just don't think that spawned out of thin air, nor do I think it's the "fault" of anyone in particular, other than anti-intellectualism as a broad concept that spans the entire political spectrum. They don't have a single curious thought about anything whatsoever, that's my point really. Woodlice. They're just "there", and stomping on them might be satisfying but there'll just be more tomorrow. And JK Rowling might be extremely famous and a billionaire but she's at the end of the day just as reactionary as the rest of them, with a bigger platform. I genuinely believe she started out well-meaning. I think there are clear indications that at this point she's unwittingly become marginally radicalised.

Remember when Gove said that the British public are "tired of hearing from experts"? He wasn't wrong, other than the part where it's not just the UK. Very angry, very loud progressives fought (and still fight, hard) against academics concerned with anything resembling reasonable compromise. It's a tactic that can be traced directly to Stonewall.

There's no nuance in describing WHAT has happened in this case but of course there's nuance and complexity in trying to examine how we got here and dividing the issue neatly into goodies and baddies is a huge oversimplification.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Kellie Harrington is fighting for Gold for Ireland tonight, thankfully she's in a different weight class to all the controversy

…yeah, was Kellie in the same class weight previously…as she has fought…(…and beaten Imane Khelif in the past, hasn’t she…)…

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…yeah, was Kellie in the same class weight previously…as she has fought…(…and beaten Imane Khelif in the past, hasn’t she…)…

She won in 2020 yeah, Imane barely landed a punch on her

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

Come on dude. No one has talked more about the nuance around these issues than we have, but there is no nuance about how this happened. It's not her first Olympics, yet this is the first problematic one. JK Rowling and her merry band of far right affiliates haven't shown a single curious thought on this.

I don't doubt that you see it as a complex issue, but you weren't the one screaming about her to begin with.

tbf from what I've read that's because in between this and the last Olympics both of the boxers in question failed tests under IBA and were not allowed to compete in the World Championships in 2023, obviously that would then raise questions

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

She won in 2020 yeah, Imane barely landed a punch on her

…yeah, I watched (…some …)…of that bout when I read that Imane had, had what seemed like some convincing losses as well…Katie looked great in the bit I saw so hopefully that hold is hers…so one of the ladies has gone down a weight or gone up a weight in the last 4 years as they’re not fighting together…?..

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…yeah, I watched (…some …)…of that bout when I read that Imane had, had what seemed like some convincing losses as well…Katie looked great in the bit I saw so hopefully that hold is hers…so one of the ladies has gone down a weight or gone up a weight in the last 4 years as they’re not fighting together…?..

Kellie has always fought at lightweight I think so must be Imane changed weight? (I'm not 100% sure on that though)

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

tbf from what I've read that's because in between this and the last Olympics both of the boxers in question failed tests under IBA and were not allowed to compete in the World Championships in 2023, obviously that would then raise questions

…it’s more layers of complications on that as well, I think…in that the IBA is a body that were banned from the Olympics in 2019 because of continued disputes about decisions/type thing…so nothing about this seems entirely clear with the ‘elevated levels’ also…

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Kellie has always fought at lightweight I think so must be Imane changed weight? (I'm not 100% sure on that though)

…Imane Khelif…(…I’m just reading atm…)…is fighting at welterweight but I’m not up on all of the different weight categories…

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…it’s more layers of complications on that as well, I think…in that the IBA is a body that were banned from the Olympics in 2019 because of continued disputes about decisions/type thing…so nothing about this seems entirely clear with the ‘elevated levels’ also…

Yeah that's true, there was some shocking ref decisions in the 2016 Olympics especially, Michael Conlan getting beat by a Russian fighter was one of the worst and also Katie suffered from a bad decision that year, both of them went pro after that (probably because of that)

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…Imane Khelif…(…I’m just reading atm…)…is fighting at welterweight but I’m not up on all of the different weight categories…

Yeah, that's the weight above Lightweight

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yeah that's true, there was some shocking ref decisions in the 2016 Olympics especially, Michael Conlan getting beat by a Russian fighter was one of the worst and also Katie suffered from a bad decision that year, both of them went pro after that (probably because of that)

…the IBA are a Russian body…(…I believe, but I might be incorrect about that…)…and have had ‘bias’ levelled at them…and yeah, it just all adds to the confusion of it all…

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

tbf from what I've read that's because in between this and the last Olympics both of the boxers in question failed tests under IBA and were not allowed to compete in the World Championships in 2023, obviously that would then raise questions

From what I've read, the IBA is supposed to be extremely corrupt, with lots of Russian money flowing through it. The initial complaint against her was made by a beaten Russian boxer. I can't be 100% on the validity of this, as obviously this is the age of misinformation, but it seems to check out.

[Beso]

She will be able to fight in both weights, depending on the level of excitement shes experiencing.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…the IBA are a Russian body…(…I believe, but I might be incorrect about that…)…and have had ‘bias’ levelled at them…and yeah, it just all adds to the confusion of it all…

Ah that would explain a few things alright

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Yeah, that's the weight above Lightweight

…so Imane must have gone up a weight since the last Olympics, then… good luck to Katie for later, she’s an excellent athlete from the bit I saw of her fight…

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

From what I've read, the IBA is supposed to be extremely corrupt, with lots of Russian money flowing through it. The initial complaint against her was made by a beaten Russian boxer. I can't be 100% on the validity of this, as obviously this is the age of misinformation, but it seems to check out.

…yeah, I just couldn’t think of that word I was searching for…’corrupt’……so I said bias, but yeah…I would say that ‘corrupt’ in the decision as an equal possibility as ‘elevated testosterone levels..’…that’s the thing, it feels so messy all through, doesn’t it…

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by The Slim Reaper

From what I've read, the IBA is supposed to be extremely corrupt, with lots of Russian money flowing through it. The initial complaint against her was made by a beaten Russian boxer. I can't be 100% on the validity of this, as obviously this is the age of misinformation, but it seems to check out.

Cheeky considering some of horrific decisions favouring Russian fighters back in 2016. Yeah, I know, there's so much conflicting information floating around out there on this.

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…so Imane must have gone up a weight since the last Olympics, then… good luck to Katie for later, she’s an excellent athlete from the bit I saw of her fight…

It's Kellie fighting not Katie. Katie went pro a few years ago

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

It's Kellie fighting not Katie. Katie went pro a few years ago

…yep, sorry…good luck to Kellie…(…and to Katie when she fights next, I’ll be the first to wish her good luck…)

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…yep, sorry…good luck to Kellie…(…and to Katie when she fights next, I’ll be the first to wish her good luck…)

[Ammi]

…for me, it’s all about whether there was an ‘advantaged athlete’ in the event and competing because that would be equivalent surely to someone having taken performance enhanced drugs and it being allowed…?…and I’m honestly not qualified enough to say whether Imane could be classified as an advantaged athlete…I do understand though that another competitor can’t be seriously harmed while that’s uncertain…so it really is a mess of a thing for all ladies and the competition in general…

[The Slim Reaper]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…yeah, I just couldn’t think of that word I was searching for…’corrupt’……so I said bias, but yeah…I would say that ‘corrupt’ in the decision as an equal possibility as ‘elevated testosterone levels..’…that’s the thing, it feels so messy all through, doesn’t it…

The thing is, world class athletes pretty much all have these anomalies. Michael Phelps has double jointed ankles and his muscles produce only half the amount of lactic acid as his competitors, and loads of other things I can't remember or be bothered to look up, but there is zero controversy around him being the most successful winner of all time.

Lebron James is 6'9, around 280lbs, but can sprint down the basketball court faster than anyone else.

Anomalies like these crop up in all competitive sports.

[Ammi]

…I do feel, though…while the controversies and culture wars rage on around them, women themselves are the ones getting lost in it all…

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

…for me, it’s all about whether there was an ‘advantaged athlete’ in the event and competing because that would be equivalent surely to someone having taken performance enhanced drugs and it being allowed…?…and I’m honestly not qualified enough to say whether Imane could be classified as an advantaged athlete…I do understand though that another competitor can’t be seriously harmed while that’s uncertain…so it really is a mess of a thing for all ladies and the competition in general…

Absolutely