[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

Why would he in all honesty do the exact same thing after the turmoil he went through with the first court case, it almost ruined his career, so why would he go back there and risk it all again, If he was this clever bloke that set all this grooming etc up ,why on Gods earth would he risk all that again

See I see this from the otherside.

Lets assume it was all about money and that..ans there really was nothing to any of it.

Why, after having experience of extortion, and people making up 'vile lies' to try and pressure him to pay...would he then do the exact same thing again, pout himself into nthe same situation again where it was possible for some other 'vile father; or whatever to claim again? Honestly, if you had some odd habits, lets say you befriended random kids like some lady on our street did and took them to yours for hour long knitting sessions (this is actually true..I have fond memories of that ) because they were bored. Many people found this odd, but if it had been a bloke they would have found it odder, lets admit. So, lets say this woman was wealthy..very wealthy, and one of our parents saw a way to make some easy money, so made up a load of stuff about how we were really learning bondage techniques or something, knitting underwear and parading it or something similar. Surely, the woman would not take in random kids into her house after this. Especially...if a second parent then did the same thing. Or she would, you know, make sure there was another adult there at the least, that kind of thing. She would not keep taking random children into her house for hours, with the curtains usually shut. At the very very least, lets say she really really wanted to keep knitting with random kids, she would do so, on the lawn outside or something, so there were witnesses, so noone could come out with stuff to extort her?

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

See I see this from the otherside.

Lets assume it was all about money and that..ans there really was nothing to any of it.

Why, after having experience of extortion, and people making up 'vile lies' to try and pressure him to pay...would he then do the exact same thing again, pout himself into nthe same situation again where it was possible for some other 'vile father; or whatever to claim again? Honestly, if you had some odd habits, lets say you befriended random kids like some lady on our street did and took them to yours for hour long knitting sessions (this is actually true..I have fond memories of that ) because they were bored. Many people found this odd, but if it had been a bloke they would have found it odder, lets admit. So, lets say this woman was wealthy..very wealthy, and one of our parents saw a way to make some easy money, so made up a load of stuff about how we were really learning bondage techniques or something, knitting underwear and parading it or something similar. Surely, the woman would not take in random kids into her house after this. Especially...if a second parent then did the same thing. Or she would, you know, make sure there was another adult there at the least, that kind of thing. She would not keep taking random children into her house for hours, with the curtains usually shut. At the very very least, lets say she really really wanted to keep knitting with random kids, she would do so, on the lawn outside or something, so there were witnesses, so noone could come out with stuff to extort her?

Exactly. The only logical explanation that he carried on doing what he was doing is because he had a compulsion that he needed to satisfy that couldn't have witnesses

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Exactly. The only logical explanation that he carried on doing what he was doing is because he had a compulsion that he needed to satisfy that couldn't have witnesses

Well this is all that makes sense to me, but there may well be something I am missing.

[Crimson Dynamo]

all the bs about "but he never had a childhood" - er he did have a childhood, yes if was different to many but he still had one and it was better than an awful lot of kids.

Jimmy saville and Rolf Harris honed their careers so they could be around kids all the time too

[Josy]

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

LOTS of people copy and paste ,in fact I would say its something everyone has done over the years, why try to humiliate Kazanne for doing it ?

Copy and pasting is fine as a quote or acknowledging that you are referencing/agreeing with the statement you posted, it's not ok to pass the written thoughts of another person off as your own (Kazanne has posted that wasn't her intention)

It was brought up because its genuinely not fair on members taking part in the discussion or replying to Kazannes posts, they are basically replying to a stranger's opinion and well it's just odd tbh.

However why you felt the need to jump in and bring it back up again when it was over and done with I do not know but if we could keep on topic now please that would be great.

[Vicky.]

Just finished watching the second bit, fell asleep last night. Wades mother, saying she could forgive Michael as he was sick? Ugh. Regardless of the reasons I could never ever forgive someone abusing my kid. James' brother has the most 'typical' reaction I think, the anger. You can see it boiling away too though I can see why some would think he comes over emotionless too...that was MY reaction when I found out my brother was taken advantage of by an adult, when 8. So thats the reaction I can relate to the most. Just pure ****ing rage. I was genuinely going to kill this guy..my brother was still quite..confused and thought it was normal and a 'relationship' rather than abuse. My parents talked me down mind, luckily as I know I would have gone through with it and probably still been in prison now. I know now that it would not have been the best thing for HIM for me to do this. But at the time, there was just pure rage and disgust. That 'came about' by accident really, he never told anyone about the abuse, he 'slipped up' when talking about someone he admired, then further questioning brought out the truth. Honestly, he seems to have repressed it all now, which is maybe for the best. I do think it may all come out again though given he now has his own child and that does tend to bring it back to the surface :/

That was a load of waffle about nothing to do with the thread really. But yeah. I still do not think Wades mother seems...remorseful. The other mother neither really. Both seem to be trying to excuse what they did, and honestly I guess they were groomed too...but the thought that you could just ignore your childs welfare like that with bright lights and presents, its just awful. Maybe its one of those things that you wouldn't understand unless you have some experience of it, but I like to think some person trying to get at my kids..I would see it coming regardless. BUT, people don't do they, sports coaches, priests, the stories look like they have loads of warnings signs, but people seem to not pick up on it. Off to watch that abducted in plain sight thing now I think, as have been advised to by a few people.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

With all due respect Joey you focus on this a lot like it's something that's supposed to be universally agreed upon but frankly in my opinion you're completely wrong and off the mark, and don't have a good read on what would be a realistic amount of emotion to be expressing (and which emotions). I don't know if you're expecting tears, wailing and Hollywood drama? My wife works with people with serious childhood trauma every single day (yes, honestly, far worse than Wade and James' accounts which people seem to think are graphic. You have no idea.) and their emotional state is perfectly in keeping with people recounting past trauma.

They come across as anxious, bewildered and deeply, deeply sad to plenty of us. You might not be able to see it; but you need to stop stating emphatically that they do it "with no emotion" and realise that that's just your own observation and not a universal truth.

No I don't think I'm off the mark at all.

I watched this with as open as a mind as I could have. Although like others, recalling there was a massive investigation done as to Jackson, charges brought and a high profile trial.
With several serious charges, not just one in which he was found 'not guilty' on every single one.

Now you can possibly choose to discount all that but I won't.

That was all done when, and he did too, Michael Jackson faced and stood up to all those charges.
Obviously alive.

This now, after his death, he has no chance to defend or fight it now, and these 2 know that.
Plus the fact they have already had a claim for money rejected, now lodging an appeal to still get it.
Then doing this documentary.
Frankly leaves me smelling a rat here.

Their whole performance in both nights, with no passion or emotion, left me with the feelingcI can't trust their account
The underwear,other accounts just didn't ring true and lead me to believe them.

I've seen more passion in a shop when an assistant has given change for Ł5 instead of Ł10, than ever came across from any in this documentary.
On this massive issue.

That's my view, my conclusion, what I believe from listening and watching their face and eyes as the told it all.

I'm not telling anyone what to believe or think, I'm saying what I do.
Other than making points in my view relevant to what brought me to disbelieve them, the only other thing I've done is respond to others responding to me, whether they do that positively and negatively, when and if I see such responses.

It's not for you to tell me I'm wrong.
A lot of time has passed before these decided to change all they've said most of their lives.

They haven't a scrap of solid evidence other than their word, their word which if they were telling the truth now, means they've lied most of their lives.

So, I have in my own way, in my view come to the point, I don't believe them.
They know Michael cannot defend himself against it.
They admit, they hardly or never saw him in the later years of his life.
Why didn't they change their deceit and lies then,if it was deceit and lies.

Why only do this when they are seeking money from his estate.
That appeal to come soon.
Then suddenly to want to do this documentary.

It stinks to high heaven, in my view totally.
So no, I don't consider I'm wrong in my thinking as you infer at all.

[UserSince2005]

Has anyone else seen Michael video response to the documentary on WhatsApp, ****ing hilarious. Wish it was online

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by UserSince2005

Has anyone else seen Michael video response to the documentary on WhatsApp, ****ing hilarious. Wish it was online

My husband sent me it yesterday in PM on FB, bad taste

[UserSince2005]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

My husband sent me it yesterday in PM on FB, bad taste

Yeah pretty bad taste. But funny.

[Vicky.]

I can see why some would think that. Humour is..subjective. My husband found it hilarious, and was not expecting the death stare instead of a laugh!

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

No I don't think I'm off the mark at all.

I watched this with as open as a mind as I could have. Although like others, recalling there was a massive investigation done as to Jackson, charges brought and a high profile trial.
With several serious charges, not just one in which he was found 'not guilty' on every single one.

Now you can possibly choose to discount all that but I won't.

That was all done when, and he did too, Michael Jackson faced and stood up to all those charges.
Obviously alive.

This now, after his death, he has no chance to defend or fight it now, and these 2 know that.
Plus the fact they have already had a claim for money rejected, now lodging an appeal to still get it.
Then doing this documentary.
Frankly leaves me smelling a rat here.

Their whole performance in both nights, with no passion or emotion, left me with the feelingcI can't trust their account
The underwear,other accounts just didn't ring true and lead me to believe them.

I've seen more passion in a shop when an assistant has given change for Ł5 instead of Ł10, than ever came across from any in this documentary.
On this massive issue.

That's my view, my conclusion, what I believe from listening and watching their face and eyes as the told it all.

I'm not telling anyone what to believe or think, I'm saying what I do.
Other than making points in my view relevant to what brought me to disbelieve them, the only other thing I've done is respond to others responding to me, whether they do that positively and negatively, when and if I see such responses.

It's not for you to tell me I'm wrong.
A lot of time has passed before these decided to change all they've said most of their lives.

They haven't a scrap of solid evidence other than their word, their word which if they were telling the truth now, means they've lied most of their lives.

So, I have in my own way, in my view come to the point, I don't believe them.
They know Michael cannot defend himself against it.
They admit, they hardly or never saw him in the later years of his life.
Why didn't they change their deceit and lies then,if it was deceit and lies.

Why only do this when they are seeking money from his estate.
That appeal to come soon.
Then suddenly to want to do this documentary.

It stinks to high heaven, in my view totally.
So no, I don't consider I'm wrong in my thinking as you infer at all.

what would be solid evidence as i note that is what you require?

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by UserSince2005

Has anyone else seen Michael video response to the documentary on WhatsApp, ****ing hilarious. Wish it was online

I don't see it as a laughing matter at all for anyone concerned and Parmys avatar which is supposed to be funny is all over FB,didn't even make me smile,

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

what would be solid evidence as i note that is what you require?

Was anything caught on camera or video ? I am sure there would have been an opportunity to get some evidence but there is nothing, even in the Jimmy Saville case weren't there tapes of him saying lewd stuff etc,

[Ramsay]

I would say most pedos are careful enough not to record themselves in the act Kaz

[AnnieK]

The whole thing is mass of lies and contradictions on all sides. I've just seen that Le Toya Jackson said he was guilty of abuse years ago then said she lied too. Nothing will ever be proved one way or the other I fear.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

The whole thing is mass of lies and contradictions on all sides. I've just seen that Le Toya Jackson said he was guilty of abuse years ago then said she lied too. Nothing will ever be proved one way or the other I fear.

La Toya was constantly coming out against him for a while, then suddenly went very quiet on the matter. One assumes the rest of the family closed ranks and told her to zip it.

[Kazanne]

Originally Posted by Ramsay

I would say most pedos are careful enough not to record themselves in the act Kaz

That's not what I was alluding to,surely going to a place like Neverland you'de at least take a camera/video to keep those memories,so if as is reported people were suspicious of what he was doing,surely you would try and get absolute truth,I wasn't on about MJ filming anything at all.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by chuff me dizzy

#NoncesOfAFeather !!

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

That's not what I was alluding to,surely going to a place like Neverland you'de at least take a camera/video to keep those memories,so if as is reported people were suspicious of what he was doing,surely you would try and get absolute truth,I wasn't on about MJ filming anything at all.

That was actually covered in the documentary. I think it was the grandmother who said it..guards take phones and such off you. Which she found odd at the time 'but felt safe as her husband was there' or something similar.

That..is another thing that makes no sense. That 'rule', if everything was above board then of course people would want videos/pics of visiting somewhere like that.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

That was actually covered in the documentary. I think it was the grandmother who said it..guards take phones and such off you. Which she found odd at the time 'but felt safe as her husband was there' or something similar.

That..is another thing that makes no sense. That 'rule', if everything was above board then of course people would want videos/pics of visiting somewhere like that.

A lot of celebs do that though from what I've read. Anything where people could make money selling pics, phones / cameras etc are usually banned. My ex was a DJ and did a few Man Utd parties and all his gear was checked for recording devices and his phone removed etc each time.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by AnnieK

A lot of celebs do that though from what I've read. Anything where people could make money selling pics, phones / cameras etc are usually banned. My ex was a DJ and did a few Man Utd parties and all his gear was checked for recording devices and his phone removed etc each time.

Yeah that makes sense I guess

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yeah that makes sense I guess

but back then there were no phones that could record owt

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

but back then there were no phones that could record owt

That's why it was called camera/video equipment.

[chuff me dizzy]

I didn't need a lot of convincing to be fair, but if I did need it those 2 broken men convinced me last night ,how many more broken men are trying to live a normal life now because of what MJ did to them ?