I don't agree or disagree the only song i downloaded Illegaly was Down and that was because it took 5months to come here and when it did i bought it off Amazon mp3 downloads as i usaully do.

Life In The Rich City.

[Stu]

Smaller bands disappearing when big moguls will still be here? This decade saw the rise of more homegrown bedroom talent than ever, and it was all down to the internet. That is a fact.

Big record labels are fast running out of business. That is another fact.

So no, smaller bands are not going anywhere and yes, big moguls are going the way of the dodo.

Big record companies are going the way of the dinosaur. They're unnecessary middlemen and to be fair, it's their own greed and incompetence that has dug the hole even deeper. They fucked over both the artists and the punters for generations. Good fucking riddance. People will still make good music and people will still respond to it.

Illegal downloading is damaging music but overall I believe the positives will outweigh the negatives in time. It's far easier to argue a point when you have facts on your side.

[Enid]

I just want to say that this is the information age, and there will always be ways to get this information for FREE. Whether that be music, documents, programs, education, films and games. Those that have discovered these ways are not thieves. We're opportunists. If I know I can get away with it, I will have it.

Sharing is caring.

[setanta]

You're still not talking about the illegal aspect of downloading for free Stu. I agree that the internet affords smaller, more independent bands the opportunity to gain a following or to gain some exposure but you're neglecting to comment on the illegality behind free downloading and how much it can really hurt these bands trying to eek out an existence.

For every band that's made it huge I'm sure there's dozens and dozens who've said "f£ck it" and decided to get full time jobs rather than watch their blood sweat and tears being accessed and downloaded for nothing on the net. And this will not get any better if we all decide to embrace illegal downloading and accept it as part of the norm.

You really think the big boys are going to disappear? I doubt it, particularly when we're in an age of mass media.... tv, radio, film you name it. They've got it all sewn up and losing out on cd sales isn't really going to put that big a dent in their pockets.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by setanta

you're neglecting to comment on the illegality behind free downloading and how much it can really hurt these bands trying to eek out and existence.

No I am not. You just need to read more carefully. I already acknowledged the damage being done. As for the illegal aspect of it ... what is there to debate? It is illegal. People break the law by doing it. And?

Originally Posted by setanta

For every band that's made it huge I'm sure there's dozens and dozens who've said "f£ck it" and decided to get full time jobs rather than watch their blood sweat and tears being accessed and downloaded for nothing on the net. And this will not get any better if we all decide to embrace illegal downloading and accept it as part of the norm.

And vice versa. There is no point really in arguing this. Like I said, I already have acknowledged the pros and cons. And I believe the pro's outweigh the cons. Quiet extraordinarily, in fact.

Originally Posted by setanta

You really think the big boys are going to disappear? I doubt it, particularly when we're in an age of mass media.... tv, radio, film you name it. They've got it all sewn up and losing out on cd sales isn't really going to put that big a dent in their pockets.

They are certainly playing less of a role already, and there unnecessary roles will continue to drop ever further in the future. You mention mass media : What's the driving force behind virtually all mass media today? The hub? The internet. The internet is a nightmare for these guys. It's an entirely free market and it's entirely user driven.

Loosing out on CD sales is not putting a big dent in there pockets? Was that a little in joke or a serious point? Holy fucking ****. These guys are taking an absolute hammering financially, and more and more artists are choosing the independent route. It's been a nightmare of a decade for big labels.

[setanta]

I don't agree. They're taking a hammering in cds maybe, but what about dvd sales and tv/radio spots and touring? These guys have their fingers in many, many pies.

And yes, we're breaking the law by trying to make it acceptability when it's clearly not. I don't care about the big boys, I care about the smaller lads who are trying to earn a crust. And stealing is stealing, whether it's from Tescos or your local grocery shop. You decide to embrace it and we'll lose out on many interesting artists.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by setanta

I don't agree. They're taking a hammering in cds maybe, but what about dvd sales and tv/radio spots and touring?

I am talking about record labels here, and record label branches of larger corporations, not other channels of media. Dozens of record labels are going out of business, dozens already have. It's not for you to agree or disagree with, it's just a plain fact.

Originally Posted by setanta

And yes, we're breaking the law but trying to make it acceptability when it's clearly not. I don't care about the big boys, I care about the smaller lads who are trying to earn a crust. And stealing is stealing, whether it's from Tescos or your local grocery shop. You decide to embrace it and we'll lose out on many interesting artists.

Well if you care about the smaller lads you should be delighted in knowing they made an impression like never before this decade thanks to the internet. It is far easier to break into music now than it was fifty years ago when you had to know somebody. Harder to sell records, yes, but easier to get into music.

As for stealing is stealing? Bullshit. I have already explained this to you a dozen times. How on earth could you consider stealing from a major artist on a major label the same thing as stealing from a struggling artist on an independent label? Stealing is only stealing in principal.

As for embrace it? Again your putting yourself on a moral pedestal. I am not embracing illegal activity, I am embracing the benefits of downloading while recognising the drawbacks. And I am not the only one. Take Radiohead, for instance. They had they're finger firmly on the button and so do many other artists who would disagree with you and say it's important to embrace this change because it's not stopping. Major labels have lost out this decade because they have been slow to embrace change.

I don't think we will be loosing out on many interesting artists either, chief. I think I am hearing slightly more artists now than when I did before I had the use of the internet.

[Niamh.]

I'd say ye will have to agree to disagree on this one Setanta & Stu!!

[setanta]

But why get into music if you lose out from it eventually? Hardly the type of incentive that's necessary to motivate young, creative minds.

As for Radiohead, yes, they asked their fans to give what they could for the new album, not to just grab for free. But of course they've already made their fortune and are in a more fortunate position than many other struggling artists.

You hear more music... that's nice. Do you pay for that privilege? Obviously not. Do I think that it will have a massive impact in years to come? Yes, big time.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by setanta

But why get into music if you lose out from it eventually?

You don't. Not if your smart. Adaptation.

Originally Posted by setanta

they've already made their fortune and are in a more fortunate position than many other struggling artists.

Again, this decade has seen the biggest influx of struggling artist turned star increase ever. All thanks to the internet. Why don't you ask Elbow if they are loosing out.

Originally Posted by setanta

You hear more music... that's nice. Do you pay for that privilege? Obviously not. Do I think that it will have a massive impact in years to come? Yes, big time.

Careful with the assumptions, kid. I buy albums. I never said I didn't. Of course it will have an impact in years to come. And in my opinion it's going to be a very positive one. More and more artists breaking through thanks to the internet, more and more existing artists realising it's smarter to switch to independent labels, increasing live sales, cheaper albums, artists getting more profit than what they normally would have in the pre download era, so on and so forth.

The future looks bright.

[setanta]

I really don't think so. You'll see less and less people becoming artists nevermind being willing to shell out cash for the honour of producing and distribuiting albums that people will never buy anyway. Do you know how expensive it is?

And you keep mentioning artists that have made it big... what about the ones who haven't and the others who condemn the theft of their work off the net?

I agree that the internet is hugely important in the fight against the tyranny of corporate airheads who feed us the usual mainstream rubbish and monopolize airtime but that doesn't make downloading for free right. You can play the crusading Robin Hood role if you like, but it doesn't hold water for me when you're consuming other people's creativity for nothing.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by setanta

I really don't think so. You'll see less and less people becoming artists nevermind being willing to shell out cash for the honour of producing and distribuiting albums that people will never buy anyway. Do you know how expensive it is?

Baseless, factless assumption. More people have broke through this decade than ever before, all down to the benefits of the internet. More people want to be artists than ever before. We are, also thanks to the internet, hungry for more and more types of experimental music and the labels are starting to listen. More people want to be famous more than ever, too. This concept that illegal downloading is discouraging people from wanting to be artists is quiet frankly utterly hilarious and without validity, regardless of your opinions on illegal downloading itself.

Originally Posted by Setanta

And you keep mentioning artists that have made it big... what about the ones who haven't and the others who condemn the theft of their work off the net?

Seriously, can you read? I have mentioned at least sixteen times now that I recognize and acknowledge the harmful effects it is having on the industry. I merely believe, with fact's and figures in lieu of daft assumptions and guesswork, that the benefits of downloadable music far outweigh the negatives, and will rise to fruition even more visibly in the future.

I never said it was right. I was shedding light on it's beneficial effects. It's such a shame your basing your arguments around tedious statement making without facts and poor assumption.

[setanta]

Well it's hardly an attraction, particularly when you hear of famous artists not even bothering to release anymore because of illegal downloading. Your argument is based on the internet providing a platform for many new artists, which I agree on - I've always said that. What I disagree with is illegal downloading not being harmful and not stealing, which it most certainly is. That's what this thread is about for f cuks sake. It's not about the pros and cons of the internet; it's about the right and wrongs of taking from others for nothing.

And it's not guesswork, it kinda obvious that production values on albums will fall as a result of people not actually buying anymore. Downloading for free is theft, no matter what spin you choose to put on it. I'll leave the final word to Cinematic Orchestra here, who work on an independent record label from a year or two ago.

"Before you copy, burn or upload these recordings, please take a moment to think about what you're doing and what you're not doing. You are not 'sticking it to the man'. You are not 'striking a blow against outdated copyright laws'. You are not 'liberating content from the corporations'. Nor are you 'promoting our records for us'. You are making it much harder for the musicians in Cinematic Orchestra to make anything like a living wage for creating the music which is good enough to give to friends and associates."

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by setanta

Well it's hardly an attraction, particularly when you hear of famous artists not even bothering to release anymore because of illegal downloading. Your argument is based on the internet providing a platform for many new artists, which I agree on - I've always said that. What I disagree with is illegal downloading not being harmful and not stealing, which it most certainly is. That's what this thread is about for f cuks sake. It's not about the pros and cons of the internet; it's about the right and wrongs of taking from others for nothing.

And it's not guesswork, it kinda obvious that production values on albums will fall as a result of people not actually buying anymore. Downloading for free is theft, no matter what spin you choose to put on it. I'll leave the final word to Cinematic Orchestra here, who work on an independent record label from a year or two ago.

"Before you copy, burn or upload these recordings, please take a moment to think about what you're doing and what you're not doing. You are not 'sticking it to the man'. You are not 'striking a blow against outdated copyright laws'. You are not 'liberating content from the corporations'. Nor are you 'promoting our records for us'. You are making it much harder for the musicians in Cinematic Orchestra to make anything like a living wage for creating the music which is good enough to give to friends and associates."

[Stu]

Originally Posted by setanta

Well it's hardly an attraction, particularly when you hear of famous artists not even bothering to release anymore because of illegal downloading.

Some 'artists' they are.

Originally Posted by Setanta

What I disagree with is illegal downloading not being harmful and not stealing.

And who exactly might you be disagreeing with? Because I never said it was not harmful and I never said it was not stealing.

Originally Posted by Setanta

That's what this thread is about for f cuks sake. It's not about the pros and cons of the internet; it's about the right and wrongs of taking from others for nothing.

This thread is about illegal downloading. I am talking about the pros and cons of illegal downloading. Shoot me.

Originally Posted by Setanta

it kinda obvious that production values on albums will fall as a result of people not actually buying anymore

So when album sales fall the big wigs sit around a table and say ''right lads, less effort into the next project. That will get the punters buying again''? Please don't ever work for me. Wrong, the opposite will happen. In fact, the opposite is already happening. These days you can get all sorts of extra tracks and bonus DVD's with your CD's for making a legit purchase. Thousands of artists are adapting to change and are coming up with new and exciting ways to get people to buy the albums. Labels realise they have to both drop the price and offer more. Production values are falling? That's a killer.

Originally Posted by Setanta

Downloading for free is theft, no matter what spin you choose to put on it.

Marvelous. Because I was not putting a spin on it.

[setanta]

Again, you persist with chopping and pasting other people's words. Can't you just answer without grabbing segments of my thoughts in attempt to big up yourself?

And standards will fall.... like I said it's incredibly expensive to produce and distribute music. You're whole argument is based on the fact that you want the little man to do well out of this but I can't see it happening if this trend continues. You'll see a drop in musicians wanting to release material and the quality will decrease too as they find it more and more difficult to break even in their investment. Cinematic Orchestra said it better than I ever will.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by setanta

Again, you persist with chopping and pasting other people's words. Can't you just answer without grabbing segments of my thoughts in attempt to big up yourself?

Did you expect me to change my posting style just to appease your childish little bouts of virtual paranoia? I have already been through this with you countless times. How on earth is dividing my argument meant to big me up?

Originally Posted by setanta

And standards will fall.... like I said it's incredibly expensive to produce and distribute music. You're whole argument is based on the fact that you want the little man to do well out of this but I can't see it happening if this trend continues. You'll see a drop in musicians wanting to release material and the quality will decrease too as they find it more and more difficult to break even in their investment. Cinematic Orchestra said it better than I ever will.

It is getting cheaper to produce music. Standards will increase as people will strive to make other people buy the product. Simple business economics. And like I already said, you can see the standards increasing with relation to the disc format all around.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by Stu

Did you expect me to change my posting style just to appease your childish little bouts of virtual paranoia? I have already been through this with you countless times. How on earth is dividing my argument meant to big me up?


It is getting cheaper to produce music. Standards will increase as people will strive to make other people buy the product. Simple business economics. And like I already said, you can see the standards increasing with relation to the disc format all around.

It's always going to be difficult and an expensive process to produce, record and distribute music of a high technical standard. That will never change.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by setanta

It's always going to be difficult and an expensive process to produce, record and distribute music of a high technical standard. That will never change.

Difficult? Yes. Expensive? Yes. But it is getting cheaper. That's all I was saying. That also happens to be a fact.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by Stu

Difficult? Yes. Expensive? Yes. But it is getting cheaper. That's all I was saying. That also happens to be a fact.

It's not fact. It costs a fortune to get a cd out there and you wont see as many artists being willing to fork out the cash when there's no market for it. Sound recording and distribution is a time consuming and expensive business.

[Vladimir]

I do download music and TV series like Big Brother UK & USA, GG, Lost, DH. If I'm a fan of some artist then I'll go buy the cd.

[Crimson Dynamo]

haha

stu and setanta


you both know that there is only ONE way to settle this...

[Ramsay]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

haha

stu and setanta


you both know that there is only ONE way to settle this...

Shoooooot offfffff

[Stu]

Originally Posted by setanta

There's that famous sarcy and dismissive tone again. It's dull Stu.

Not only did I put it in intentionally to create irony, which you just completely missed out on, but you created your own additional little piece of irony by being sarcastic in a post dismissing sarcasm. Well done.

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

haha

stu and setanta


you both know that there is only ONE way to settle this...

Old style western showdown? I'm game .

[setanta]

Originally Posted by Stu

Not only did I put it in intentionally to create irony, which you just completely missed out on, but you created your own additional little piece of irony by being sarcastic in a post dismissing sarcasm. Well done.


Old style western showdown? I'm game .

Oh really? I'm sorry that your attempt at subtlety was lost on me, but it's kind of understandable when you consider that you're asking me to differentiate between your last comment and the rest of them when the tone has always been the same. That's the greater irony really.