[GiRTh]

Originally Posted by angus58

Nathan is a thick prat

So is Ben?

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by CaudleHalbard

Steve is typical cannon fodder, I'm afraid. Not too much between the ears!

And like the rest of them he has no real idea of why wars and counter-insurgency operations (mostly utterly pointless) are carried out.Those who want to rule the world rely on the likes of Steve to unthinkingly carry out orders.

Ben would never fit in to the armed forces!

What a load of tosh - that just contributes in perpetuating stereotypes! People like you should thank God there are men and women who are prepared to unquestionably follow orders, and risk their necks in the process, as you probably wouldn't even be here, nevermind on the net stating your opinions - it is thanks to men like Steve you have such freedoms. Anyone referring to such men as 'cannon fodder' - whether it be higer ranking military personnel, politicians or members of the public - should be ashamed of themselves - talk about a lack of appreciation, and therefore understanding of what they do - and how we all benefit from that.

How the hell would you know if Steve, or any other soldier, understands why wars etc are carried out - how patronising. Like any other sector of society - some are brighter than others - and what they certainly all do have is guts and the ability to commit to a very demanding job, physically and psychologically - to the benefit of society in general - which happens to be us! Questioning orders doesn't make someone intelligent, to do so could be down to cowardice or belligerence. On the other hand - following orders and respecting the judgement of senior staff giving those orders is crucial in war situations otherwise the army simply couldn't function and many more lives would be lost. Those joining the forces usually have the intelligence to understand that!

And, much as I quite like ben, no - he would not fit in - as he is not a team player and is far too lazy!

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by GiRTh

You're arguing semantics claiming Steve wasn't a war hero cuz he was injured in NI.
It does not matter if you agree or disagree with British occupancy in regions around the world. Steve was injured serving his country and for that alone he deserves respect.

Well said!

[Lex]

Originally Posted by karezza

Ben is entitled to his opinion - Steve hasn't got a leg to stand on.

Naughty!

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by oddballmisfitsFTW

this is first time I heard Steve talk bollocks.

most of the people who fight in wars have no ********* idea why they are there fighting in the first place, just fight for the flag cos their superior orders them to

Yeah, I think thats true in Steve's case. I remember someone (think it was Ife?) asking him why British troops were targeted in N.Ireland and he said "basically, they dont like us intefering" and if thats the extent of his knowledge of why the IRA were fighting then he doesnt seem to understand the conflict very much

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

What a load of tosh - that just contributes in perpetuating stereotypes! People like you should thank God there are men and women who are prepared to unquestionably follow orders, and risk their necks in the process, as you probably wouldn't even be here, nevermind on the net stating your opinions - it is thanks to men like Steve you have such freedoms. Anyone referring to such men as 'cannon fodder' - whether it be higer ranking military personnel, politicians or members of the public - should be ashamed of themselves - talk about a lack of appreciation, and therefore understanding of what they do - and how we all benefit from that.

How the hell would you know if Steve, or any other soldier, understands why wars etc are carried out - how patronising. Like any other sector of society - some are brighter than others - and what they certainly all do have is guts and the ability to commit to a very demanding job, physically and psychologically - to the benefit of society in general - which happens to be us! Questioning orders doesn't make someone intelligent, to do so could be down to cowardice or belligerence. On the other hand - following orders and respecting the judgement of senior staff giving those orders is crucial in war situations otherwise the army simply couldn't function and many more lives would be lost. Those joining the forces usually have the intelligence to understand that!

And, much as I quite like ben, no - he would not fit in - as he is not a team player and is far too lazy!

I dont really see what Steve did to achieve any freedoms at all

[ange7]

Originally Posted by Zippy

Well Ben can still have an opinion ffs. To say you can only have an opinion if youve SEEN the horrors first hand is blatantly ridiculous.

And anyways, there are ways of expressing things without getting all steamed up.

if Ben said " Hitler should have been left and Britain shouldn't have got involved in the war" then we're all entitled to our opinion. Which is Ben is a right wing fascist twat who would have let Hitler kill even more than the 6 million Jew and 2 million handicapped,gays,slaves,gypsys and communists that he murdered.
Wake up Zippy ffs.

[setanta]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I dont really see what Steve did to achieve any freedoms at all

Note the use of the word "like" in that instance.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by ange7

if Ben said " Hitler should have been left and Britain shouldn't have got involved in the war" then we're all entitled to our opinion. Which is Ben is a right wing fascist twat who would have let Hitler kill even more than the 6 million Jew and 2 million handicapped,gays,slaves,gypsys and communists that he murdered.
Wake up Zippy ffs.

Was he saying Britain should have avoided entering the war, or was he saying the war should have been avoided altogether? Because if its the latter, then the Holocaust only came about because of the chaos of the Nazi regime during wartime

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by MTVN

I dont really see what Steve did to achieve any freedoms at all

I am talking about the bigger picture - that Steve was a part of! The ultimate task of the forces is to protect its country and its citizens, if necessary - and every soldier commits to that when they sign up, including Steve!

[ange7]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Was he saying Britain should have avoided entering the war, or was he saying the war should have been avoided altogether? Because if its the latter, then the Holocaust only came about because of the chaos of the Nazi regime during wartime

He seems to have said Britain should have not entered the war. (According to reports) Why would he say everyone ought have avoided a war... that's obvious.
PS war or no war ... concentration camps were up and running as early as 1933 .... war started 1939, so either way not really relevant. Hitler had it on his mind to kill millions prior to the starting and those death were not a "result" of WW2.
Might be best to give Ben the benefit of the doubt on this one because if he actually said this he ought to be not only chucked from BB but also from the UK.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

I am talking about the bigger picture - that Steve was a part of! The ultimate task of the forces is to protect its country and its citizens, if necessary - and every soldier commits to that when they sign up, including Steve!

But some conflicts are more important & justified than others. The conflict in N.Ireland wasnt protecting the country, I dont think so anyway. I dont think he was fighting for freedom there at all, on the contrary, I think we have no right to occupy Northern Ireland.

In fact most recent wars; in Iraq, N.Ireland, the Falklands, maybe even Afghanistan werent really protecting Britain, and werent really beneficial to us as a country

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by ange7

He seems to have said Britain should have not entered the war. (According to reports) Why would he say everyone ought have avoided a war... that's obvious.
PS war or no war ... concentration camps were up and running as early as 1933 .... war started 1939, so either way not really relevant. Hitler had it on his mind to kill millions prior to the starting and those death were not a "result" of WW2.
Might be best to give Ben the benefit of the doubt on this one because if he actually said this he ought to be not only chucked from BB but also from the UK.

It's not obvious, he may have been saying that Britain and France could have avoided having to declare war on Germany, and that it wasnt neccesarily the correct thing to do

And concentration camps existed yes, but they were really forced labour camps, they were not converted into extermination camps until the Wansee conference of 1942, and that was only after other options had been considered (deporting Jews to Madagascar for instance, or forcing them to work in war industries). It came about because of the war as the situation of the Jews became increasingly problematic for the Nazis at this time, having gained 3 million Jews from the invasion of Poland and 3 million from the invasion of Russia. They had no idea what to do with the Jews so the Holocaust was a way out of a blind alley for them. Thats why I say it came about as a result of war

But anyway, this is not a discussion on the Holocaust, I just dont think Ben should be portrayed as being an advocate of ignoring genocide

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by MTVN

But some conflicts are more important & justified than others. The conflict in N.Ireland wasnt protecting the country, I dont think so anyway. I dont think he was fighting for freedom there at all, on the contrary, I think we have no right to occupy Northern Ireland.

In fact most recent wars; in Iraq, N.Ireland, the Falklands, maybe even Afghanistan werent really protecting Britain, and werent really beneficial to us as a country

You are missing the point - soldiers don't get to cherry-pick where they go - they follow orders. And if someone had attacked our country whilst Steve was a soldier - he would have been fighting to protect us! My comments were about what they sign up to do - what they are prepared to do - even if they never get to do it. It is the intention that counts - I did say where would we be without men and women who were prepared to do that!

And besides - his injuries were inflicted whilst he was doing his job - in the name of his country - so pretty much the same thing as far as I am concerned. Ireland was a scary place to be for a soldier back then - he was a brave man just like the rest!

[Just Do It]

He's entitled to his opinion. People who can't handle debate just shout and abuse. Steve's a ****ing moron.

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

You are missing the point - soldiers don't get to cherry-pick where they go - they follow orders. And if someone had attacked our country whilst Steve was a soldier - he would have been fighting to protect us! My comments were about what they sign up to do - what they are prepared to do - even if they never get to do it. It is the intention that counts - I did say where would we be without men and women who were prepared to do that!

And besides - his injuries were inflicted whilst he was doing his job - in the name of his country - so pretty much the same thing as far as I am concerned. Ireland was a scary place to be for a soldier back then - he was a brave man just like the rest!

Ok, I see where you're coming from now

[joeysteele]

Steve has shown he is a bigot with a very narrow train of thought and an even wierder idea of democracy,totally out of order and wrong, Ben was 100% right and Steve presents a very wprrying thought of what soldiers thinking is if more soldiers think as wrong as he clearly does, get him out.

[CaudleHalbard]

We have to look beyond the metal legs and realise that this is NOT a war hero.

He got his injuries from being at the wrong place at the wrong time during action against people who were predominantly UK citizens.

Many people drift into the armed forces because they have difficulty getting jobs anywhere else. It's a fact.

[boomoo]

Originally Posted by smudgie

I don't have a clue how I can give you proof, I dare say plenty of people heard it. I am not a Steve hater, I don't hate anybody in real life let alone some reality show I watch for entertainment.
I don't particularly like Steve, he is far too boorish for me, but I don't stoop to telling fibs.

You do not need to give proof it was advertised last night as being part of todays highlights.

Every time Ben goes up the ratings BB shows him in a row.

[boomoo]

Originally Posted by MTVN

But some conflicts are more important & justified than others. The conflict in N.Ireland wasnt protecting the country, I dont think so anyway. I dont think he was fighting for freedom there at all, on the contrary, I think we have no right to occupy Northern Ireland.

In fact most recent wars; in Iraq, N.Ireland, the Falklands, maybe even Afghanistan werent really protecting Britain, and werent really beneficial to us as a country

The British army entered Northern ireland to protect the Catholics from Protestant acts of aggression. At first they were greeted with open arms. Then it all went wrong.
I have never been in the army like Steve but I do feel entitled to an opinion.
War rarely ever achieves anything other than a massive death toll.
I will repeat what a great warrior said, the Duke of Wellington after Waterloo.
There is only one thing worse than winning a war and that was losing.

[boomoo]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Was he saying Britain should have avoided entering the war, or was he saying the war should have been avoided altogether? Because if its the latter, then the Holocaust only came about because of the chaos of the Nazi regime during wartime

Well he may be a pacifist which is not a hanging offence. Even though they were given white feathers during the war.

A very large portion of this population say we should not be in Afghanistan and we should never have gone into Iraq.
The second world war was more complicated which is why some MPs were accused of appeasement.

Who would ever have thought such a topic would be aired on BB forums

[MTVN]

Originally Posted by boomoo

The British army entered Northern ireland to protect the Catholics from Protestant acts of aggression. At first they were greeted with open arms. Then it all went wrong.
I have never been in the army like Steve but I do feel entitled to an opinion.
War rarely ever achieves anything other than a massive death toll.
I will repeat what a great warrior said, the Duke of Wellington after Waterloo.
There is only one thing worse than winning a war and that was losing.

Well sort of yes, they were originally sent in as a peacekeeping force. The IRA originally had little support, and as you mentioned it all went wrong, after Bloody Sunday. Not sure how that is relevant?

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Steve has shown he is a bigot with a very narrow train of thought and an even wierder idea of democracy,totally out of order and wrong, Ben was 100% right and Steve presents a very wprrying thought of what soldiers thinking is if more soldiers think as wrong as he clearly does, get him out.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by CaudleHalbard

We have to look beyond the metal legs and realise that this is NOT a war hero.

He got his injuries from being at the wrong place at the wrong time during action against people who were predominantly UK citizens.

Many people drift into the armed forces because they have difficulty getting jobs anywhere else. It's a fact.

He acquired those injuries whilst doing a dangerous job in a dangerous place for soldiers at that time! Sounds like some have specific 'issues' with our soldiers! Doesn't make them any less heros for doing a dangerous job!

[Livia]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Yeah, I think thats true in Steve's case. I remember someone (think it was Ife?) asking him why British troops were targeted in N.Ireland and he said "basically, they dont like us intefering" and if thats the extent of his knowledge of why the IRA were fighting then he doesnt seem to understand the conflict very much

He probably didn't want to fry her three healthy braincells with too much information.