[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by NettoSuperstar!

Most of us do feel safe though I dont break out in a sweat when Im sat next to a woman in a burqa, JeeZ...you try having some common sense and proportion

...also not a man and also live in a major multicultural city, the threat of terrorism is something I rarely think about being a bit rational and all (and also waiting to be called a wooly liberal hahaha)

Maybe you are simply too 'naive' and idealistic to fully comprehend the potential threat to our society! What about the recent planned attacks that were thwarted by intelligence - how do you know that hiding their identities behind burkas weren't a part of that plan! You don't! It won't be the last!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ne-strike.html

All I can say - is that if and when there is another attack in Britain - I hope any unfortunate victims are the loved ones of those whose attitudes contributed to allowing it to happen and not of those totally opposed to allowing anything that increases the risks!

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Maybe you are simply too 'naive' and idealistic to fully comprehend the potential threat to our society! What about the recent planned attacks that were thwarted by intelligence - how do you know that hiding their identities behind burkas weren't a part of that plan! You don't! It won't be the last!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ne-strike.html

All I can say - is that if and when there is another attack in Britain - I hope any unfortunate victims are the loved ones of those whose attitudes contributed to allowing it to happen and not of those totally opposed to allowing anything that increases the risks!

Im anything but naive, I just dont get carried away with media sensationalism, and reactionary political propoganda. I am probably as likely to get attacked by a burqa covered Jihadi as run over by a bus, thats rationalism not idealism....and you fail to see how your reactionary position and the resulting increased marginalisation WOULD increase the risks

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by NettoSuperstar!

Im anything but naive, I just dont get carried away with media sensationalism, and reactionary political propoganda. I am probably as likely to get attacked by a burqa covered Jihadi as run over by a bus, thats rationalism not idealism....and you fail to see how your reactionary position WOULD increase the risks

When it does happen - tell that to the families of the victims!

[Angus]

Originally Posted by NettoSuperstar!

Im anything but naive, I just dont get carried away with media sensationalism, and reactionary political propoganda. I am probably as likely to get attacked by a burqa covered Jihadi as run over by a bus, thats rationalism not idealism....and you fail to see how your reactionary position and the resulting increased marginalisation WOULD increase the risks

The wearing of a burkha is REACTIONARY and has no place in modern day society whether in Britain, Saudi Arabia, or Pakistan. In Islamic countries enlightened women are fighting against oppression and subjugation, but because of the male dominated hierarchy it will take them decades, if ever, to achieve the same freedoms we in the West enjoy. What excuse do we have in Britain to encourage such outdated, reactionary practices? We should be encouraging progress and enlightenment. Do you not GET that? Why would you NOT want these brainwashed, oppressed women to join the
21st century?

[Shasown]

Good the hear that compromise is still highly evident on the forum.
How about on the street in buses and trains etc if a woman wished to wear a burqa then she can.

However if it is required to be removed for genuine reasons of security. At airports, banks etc then she has to remove it in order to use that place.

Incidentally if it is simply for security and because terrorists may use it as a disguise are you also going to call for the removal of sunglasses, beards, false hairpieces, liquid latex etc as they have all been used by terrorists and criminals for years.

If the burka is banned in public then shouldnt hoods etc always be down, caps etc not be allowed to be worn? I would say more people are wrongly intimidated by youths wearing clothes that hide their identity rather than some female doing a darth vader impersonation because she or her family feel that her face may bring out feelings of lust in a man.

[In the Drunk Tank]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Good the hear that compromise is still highly evident on the forum.
How about on the street in buses and trains etc if a woman wished to wear a burqa then she can.

However if it is required to be removed for genuine reasons of security. At airports, banks etc then she has to remove it in order to use that place.

Incidentally if it is simply for security and because terrorists may use it as a disguise are you also going to call for the removal of sunglasses, beards, false hairpieces, liquid latex etc as they have all been used by terrorists and criminals for years.

If the burka is banned in public then shouldnt hoods etc always be down, caps etc not be allowed to be worn? I would say more people are wrongly intimidated by youths wearing clothes that hide their identity rather than some female doing a darth vader impersonation because she or her family feel that her face may bring out feelings of lust in a man.

Yeah, thats what I've been arguing, I dont think the burqa should be completely banned in public, but I can understand that it may be necessary for it to be removed sometimes.

Some good points with the rest of your post by the way.

[NettoSuperstar!]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Good the hear that compromise is still highly evident on the forum.
How about on the street in buses and trains etc if a woman wished to wear a burqa then she can.

However if it is required to be removed for genuine reasons of security. At airports, banks etc then she has to remove it in order to use that place.

Incidentally if it is simply for security and because terrorists may use it as a disguise are you also going to call for the removal of sunglasses, beards, false hairpieces, liquid latex etc as they have all been used by terrorists and criminals for years.

If the burka is banned in public then shouldnt hoods etc always be down, caps etc not be allowed to be worn? I would say more people are wrongly intimidated by youths wearing clothes that hide their identity rather than some female doing a darth vader impersonation because she or her family feel that her face may bring out feelings of lust in a man.

ennit haha

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Good the hear that compromise is still highly evident on the forum.
How about on the street in buses and trains etc if a woman wished to wear a burqa then she can.

However if it is required to be removed for genuine reasons of security. At airports, banks etc then she has to remove it in order to use that place.

Incidentally if it is simply for security and because terrorists may use it as a disguise are you also going to call for the removal of sunglasses, beards, false hairpieces, liquid latex etc as they have all been used by terrorists and criminals for years.

If the burka is banned in public then shouldnt hoods etc always be down, caps etc not be allowed to be worn? I would say more people are wrongly intimidated by youths wearing clothes that hide their identity rather than some female doing a darth vader impersonation because she or her family feel that her face may bring out feelings of lust in a man.

Sunglasses, caps, even hoods etc don't totally conceal identity - and you can always tell whether it is a man or a woman! A burka is totally concealing - making it much easier for someone to hide their identity and other items.

Also - because of the associated female modesty issue - people are less inclined to ask them to remove it - for fear of offence! It makes people feel uncomfortable - and Muslims are well aware of this!

[Angus]

Originally Posted by Shasown

Good the hear that compromise is still highly evident on the forum.
How about on the street in buses and trains etc if a woman wished to wear a burqa then she can.

However if it is required to be removed for genuine reasons of security. At airports, banks etc then she has to remove it in order to use that place.

Incidentally if it is simply for security and because terrorists may use it as a disguise are you also going to call for the removal of sunglasses, beards, false hairpieces, liquid latex etc as they have all been used by terrorists and criminals for years.

If the burka is banned in public then shouldnt hoods etc always be down, caps etc not be allowed to be worn? I would say more people are wrongly intimidated by youths wearing clothes that hide their identity rather than some female doing a darth vader impersonation because she or her family feel that her face may bring out feelings of lust in a man.

Sunglasses, wigs, latex etc certainly DISGUISE people's appearance but the burkha completely annihilates all evidence of identity, so to use those as an example is frankly ridiculous. Furthermore, I disagree that the burkha should be allowed on public transport or in any public buildings which are closed environments. Compromise is not a one way street - what some FMs seem to be demanding is that, once again, we must submit to other people's cultural norms even if we may find them offensive, abhorrent or downright dangerous. No-one dragged anyone to this country kicking and screaming, they came voluntarily, and they should have the commonsense and courtesy to comply with the laws, rules and regulations the rest of us have to abide by.

I am also totally fed up with MEN being so blase about this truly abhorrent visual sign of female oppression. I will say it again - no man would ever submit to such an indignity.

[In the Drunk Tank]

Originally Posted by angus58

Sunglasses, wigs, latex etc certainly DISGUISE people's appearance but the burkha completely annihilates all evidence of identity, so to use those as an example is frankly ridiculous. Furthermore, I disagree that the burkha should be allowed on public transport or in any public buildings which are closed environments. Compromise is not a one way street - what some FMs seem to be demanding is that, once again, we must submit to other people's cultural norms even if we may find them offensive, abhorrent or downright dangerous. No-one dragged anyone to this country kicking and screaming, they came voluntarily, and they should have the commonsense and courtesy to comply with the laws, rules and regulations the rest of us have to abide by.

I am also totally fed up with MEN being so blase about this truly abhorrent visual sign of female oppression. I will say it again - no man would ever submit to such an indignity.

Banning a woman from wearing something out of her own free will - that is oppression.

You still dont undertsand that banning a religious garment is an infringement on civil liberties, and an infringement on religious freedom. And before you go on about how it is not techincally a requriement I'll reiterate that neither are crucuifixes, nor is the kippah for Jews. By saying that I'm not saying that the burqa and the kippah are similar, not at all, but they are both ways of somebody expressing their religion, and that is a right that freedom of religion grants.

We are not submitting to others cultural norms. If you find the burqa abhorrent and offensive then that you really do need to get over yourself and your petty attitude where you think you have the right to decide what clothing is and isnt acceptable. We are a multicultural and secular society, whether you and your BNP, Daily Mail-reading buddies like it or not, and we should therefore be tolerant of other religious and cultural customs, instead of holding them in contempt.

The number of women who wear burqas is tiny, no more than a thousand or two. Just live and let live.

[Angus]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Banning a woman from wearing something out of her own free will - that is oppression.

You still dont undertsand that banning a religious garment is an infringement on civil liberties, and an infringement on religious freedom. And before you go on about how it is not techincally a requriement I'll reiterate that neither are crucuifixes, nor is the kippah for Jews. By saying that I'm not saying that the burqa and the kippah are similar, not at all, but they are both ways of somebody expressing their religion, and that is a right that freedom of religion grants.

We are not submitting to others cultural norms. If you find the burqa abhorrent and offensive then that you really do need to get over yourself and your petty attitude where you think you have the right to decide what clothing is and isnt acceptable. We are a multicultural and secular society, whether you and your BNP, Daily Mail-reading buddies like it or not, and we should therefore be tolerant of other religious and cultural customs, instead of holding them in contempt.

The number of women who wear burqas is tiny, no more than a thousand or two. Just live and let live.

How *******ing dare you accuse me of having anything to do with the vile BNP -that is the typical and predictable reaction of left wing lunatics towards anyone who disagrees with their wooly minded liberalism. It's people like you who have turned this country into the mess it is now in. Well I've news for you, the general public are no longer being beaten into submission because they fear being called racists. Such vile accusations have stifled any meaningful debates on uncontrolled immigration and the clash of hundreds of different cultures in our inner cities. Even the useless Labour Party have now admitted that their policies on uncontrolled immigration and multiculturalism is deeply flawed, and is now causing all sorts of inter-ethnic clashes of culture and jostling for scant resources.

I've lived in many different countries, and amongst many different cultures during my life and I have ALWAYS abided by the host countries laws, rules, regulations and cultural norms even when they have been in direct contradiction to mine, so don't bloody lecture me on the meaning of tolerance. It is not too much to ask that people who come to this country of their own free will, are prepared to respect OUR way of life. Respect and acceptance is a two way street and it's about time we were met half way.

I bet you're a male chauvinistic, sexist pig, judging by your complete inability to understand that most of these women do not wear the burkha from their own free will. Have you ever taken the time to talk to such women, well I have and not just in this country. I have lived in the Middle East and know only too well how oppressed women are there, so don't give me all your BS about how we MUST accept such reactionary sexist crap in our modern day society. It is NOT a religious or even a major cultural requirement but it is extremely divisive if only because the burkha isolates the wearer from normal human interaction and contact. How is multiculturalism ever going to work in practise if EVERY culture does its own thing, irrespective of whether it is acceptable to other cultures. But then the loony left never think anything through do they? I suggest YOU go back to your red flag flying, Guardian reading, hypocritical left wing buddies whose idealistic claptrap is never grounded in any reality.

[In the Drunk Tank]

Originally Posted by angus58

How *******ing dare you accuse me of having anything to do with the vile BNP -that is the typical and predictable reaction of left wing lunatics towards anyone who disagrees with their wooly minded liberalism. It's people like you who have turned this country into the mess it is now in. Well I've news for you, the general public are no longer being beaten into submission because they fear being called racists. Such vile accusations have stifled any meaningful debates on uncontrolled immigration and the clash of hundreds of different cultures in our inner cities. Even the useless Labour Party have now admitted that their policies on uncontrolled immigration and multiculturalism is deeply flawed, and is now causing all sorts of inter-ethnic clashes of culture and jostling for scant resources.

I've lived in many different countries, and amongst many different cultures during my life and I have ALWAYS abided by the host countries laws, rules, regulations and cultural norms even when they have been in direct contradiction to mine, so don't bloody lecture me on the meaning of tolerance. It is not too much to ask that people who come to this country of their own free will, are prepared to respect OUR way of life. Respect and acceptance is a two way street and it's about time we were met half way.

I bet you're a male chauvinistic, sexist pig, judging by your complete inability to understand that most of these women do not wear the burkha from their own free will. Have you ever taken the time to talk to such women, well I have and not just in this country. I have lived in the Middle East and know only too well how oppressed women are there, so don't give me all your BS about how we MUST accept such reactionary sexist crap in our modern day society. It is NOT a religious or even a major cultural requirement but it is extremely divisive if only because the burkha isolates the wearer from normal human interaction and contact. How is multiculturalism ever going to work in practise if EVERY culture does its own thing, irrespective of whether it is acceptable to other cultures. But then the loony left never think anything through do they? I suggest YOU go back to your red flag flying, Guardian reading, hypocritical left wing buddies whose idealistic claptrap is never grounded in any reality.

Dont expect to direct petty stereotypes at people and not recieve them in return. If you want instantly presume that I'm a "wooly minded" leftist or a male chauvinist and then label me so then I will do the same to you. If you choose to associate anyone who supports the right to wear the burqa as a wooly minded, PC-mad left-winger then I will associate those who find Islam destructive to our "culture" as a BNP supporter. I have shown no indication of my political affiliation, so dont presume to know or I'll do the same. And now I'm a "male, chauvinistic, sexist pig" right?

"Our way of life" does not dictate that a woman cannot wear a burqa, our way of life allows people to express their religion how they wish, some choose to express it through the burqa. They dont have that luxury in a lot of countries and we should be thankful that we live in somewhere that allows the freedom of choice.

Do you have evidence to back up you claim that most woman do not wear it out of their own free will, aside from anecdotal? And I'm talking about the UK here, I know full well how oppresive husbands are in Afghanistan. I remember seeing a burqa wearing woman on television defending her right to wear it. She stated that it was her personal choice, she considers it of huge importance to her religion, and in a free and tolerant country she should have the right to wear it, and to forbid her from doing so would be an infringement on her civil liberties.

I dont see why we are always compared to other countries. You might have had to respect their customs and culture elsewhere, but if you ask me it's commendable that more than one culture can thrive in the UK.

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by MTVN

Banning a woman from wearing something out of her own free will - that is oppression.

You still dont undertsand that banning a religious garment is an infringement on civil liberties, and an infringement on religious freedom. And before you go on about how it is not techincally a requriement I'll reiterate that neither are crucuifixes, nor is the kippah for Jews. By saying that I'm not saying that the burqa and the kippah are similar, not at all, but they are both ways of somebody expressing their religion, and that is a right that freedom of religion grants.

We are not submitting to others cultural norms. If you find the burqa abhorrent and offensive then that you really do need to get over yourself and your petty attitude where you think you have the right to decide what clothing is and isnt acceptable. We are a multicultural and secular society, whether you and your BNP, Daily Mail-reading buddies like it or not, and we should therefore be tolerant of other religious and cultural customs, instead of holding them in contempt.

The number of women who wear burqas is tiny, no more than a thousand or two. Just live and let live.

And you don't understand that civil liberties do not override national security! Your priorities are screwed!

You have been told that the burka is not a religious requirement - so why do you insist on bringing it up in a religious sense - it is simply for dramatic purposes. How dare you accuse people of being racist and belonging to the BNP - that is attempted intimidation - and designed to shut people up for fear of such name-calling! Always a weapon used by those losing the argument! And you need to get over yourself - who the hell are you to be telling people how tolerant you think they should be!

[In the Drunk Tank]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

And you don't understand that civil liberties do not override national security! Your priorities are screwed!

You have been told that the burka is not a religious requirement - so why do you insist on bringing it up in a religious sense - it is simply for dramatic purposes. How dare you accuse people of being racist and belonging to the BNP - that is attempted intimidation - and designed to shut people up for fear of such name-calling! Always a weapon used by those losing the argument! And you need to get over yourself - who the hell are you to be telling people how tolerant you think they should be!

So we should breach civil liberties because of a minor terror threat? I keep repeating myself, less than 2000 people wear one, the threat of a burqa to national security is being blown compltely out of proportion.

I need to get over myself? You are the one who thinks they have a right to tell someone what they can and cannot wear, you are the one who thinks it should be banned because you personally find it offensive.

Although I admit I went a bit far with the BNP comment, so I apologise to Angus for that. I just resented how she equated supporting the right to wear a burqa with being a wooly minded, chauvinist liberal. You know nothing of my political views so dont presume them for me please.

[In the Drunk Tank]

Originally Posted by angus58

I wouldn't bother Wombai. It's a complete waste of time trying to debate this issue with idiots like him. I can't even be arsed to respond to such a sexist bigot since he is clearly talking out of his backside. When he has maybe lived in a Muslim country for several years and interacted with the women in those countries he would understand the true meaning of oppression and being bullied into submission. Even then he would never really completely GET it since his experience would be completely different to that of a Western woman having to conform to their sexist culture.

So to sum up your opinion of me I'm a Communist, sexist, bigoted idiot whos talking out of his backside purely because I think a woman has a right to wear a burqa?

[NettoSuperstar!]

lol

[arista]

MTVN
can you please keep the BNP out of this thread.

Its is about a College using there Security Rights.

Sign Of The Times.

[In the Drunk Tank]

Originally Posted by arista

MTVN
can you please keep the BNP out of this thread.

Its is about a College using there Security Rights.

Sign Of The Times.

Agreed, that was inappropiate in this thread but it was only after being presumed to be a "wooly minded liberal" that I decided to politically stereotype her as she did me.

[arista]

Liberals are Welcome on here
This is thread about a College that has used its
Security Rights.

[Merry Mockmas]

and a muslim couple that used to live next door to me had a husband that beat the crap of his wife and kids,and if he could do that to his wife and kids what could he do to strangers?

[James]

It would be best if posters avoid making remarks attacking other posters personally. Stick to the topic.

[Tom4784]

MTVN and Netto are speaking sense, I pretty much agree with their points.

When it comes to all these 'threats to British Culture' it's quite laughable, Christianity was brought to England by the Romans and they pretty much built us up from nothing, the Anglo Saxons and Vikings left their marks too and with the British Empire we took other elements of other countries as well. Our culture basically consists of a myriad of other countries' cultures and things like Burkhas aren't threatening our culture it's just another newer element to it.

If you want to be quitessentially British go and engage in a few Pagan rituals and have a rave or two in Stone Henge because Paganism is pretty much where we started from, everything else we pretty much borrowed from other countries.

[InOne]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

MTVN and Netto are speaking sense, I pretty much agree with their points.

When it comes to all these 'threats to British Culture' it's quite laughable, Christianity was brought to England by the Romans and they pretty much built us up from nothing, the Anglo Saxons and Vikings left their marks too and with the British Empire we took other elements of other countries as well. Our culture basically consists of a myriad of other countries' cultures and things like Burkhas aren't threatening our culture it's just another newer element to it.

If you want to be quitessentially British go and engage in a few Pagan rituals and have a rave or two in Stone Henge because Paganism is pretty much where we started from, everything else we pretty much borrowed from other countries.

Usually the types you find in Bristol or Avebury, middle class kids wanting to be 'different'.

Not that that has anything to do with the topic, just felt like saying it

[WOMBAI]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

MTVN and Netto are speaking sense, I pretty much agree with their points.

When it comes to all these 'threats to British Culture' it's quite laughable, Christianity was brought to England by the Romans and they pretty much built us up from nothing, the Anglo Saxons and Vikings left their marks too and with the British Empire we took other elements of other countries as well. Our culture basically consists of a myriad of other countries' cultures and things like Burkhas aren't threatening our culture it's just another newer element to it.

If you want to be quitessentially British go and engage in a few Pagan rituals and have a rave or two in Stone Henge because Paganism is pretty much where we started from, everything else we pretty much borrowed from other countries.

Talk about undermine your own heritage! Thankfully we don't all have such a negative attitude! Many of us are proud of our country and our roots! Britain does have its own culture and identity - and is entitled to keep it!

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by WOMBAI

Talk about undermine your own heritage! Thankfully we don't all have such a negative attitude! Many of us are proud of our country and our roots! Britain does have its own culture and identity - and is entitled to keep it!

I'm not undermining it, I'm just highlighting the fact that we were built on multiculturism due to all the different elements British culture represents. Without the influences of other countries and cultures we wouldn't be where we are now.

Who said I'm not proud of my roots? You can stop grasping at straws now.