[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

if you think about weddings they are kind of gay anyway. I think hetro males should refuse to get married as weddings are too gay and unless they man them up a little we are saying NO

I mean the fecking outfits, bridesmaids, napkins, tables of relatives all making small talk, a vicar in a frock, Come on Eileen followed by Shalimar "Take that to the bank", the cars

This madness must stop - its like religious Carnival. Its way, way too fierce

Only if you have a bride intent on having and loving those things.

My sister got married in a simple service, no over the top dresses etc. Had a party afterwards, went on holiday, that was it.

And then started married life without a £30,000 debt for one day of extravagance you don't really need.

[Vicky.]

No they shouldnt be forced to wed anyone they don't want to. Its still acceptable to refuse to perform ceremonies for divorced people on basically no grounds besides 'we dont agree with it'..so I dont really see the difference.

Personally though, I would think any vicar that refuses to carry out a wedding either to a gay couple, or a divorced one, or any thing else (legal) is a bit of a douche, but its their choice to be a douche

Edit. After reading this I see niamh already made the divorce point...and also I agree with the why would you want to get married in a place that had to be forced to do it argument.

[joeysteele]

Well I have known couples get married in Church who never go to Church and don't have any belief either.
They just want a 'show' wedding,sometimes just to please Parents/Family.
So Churches marry people they maybe ought not to as to male/female marriages.

The sad thing is Churches are hypocritical anyway in their standards.
Having said that I don't think they should be forced to conduct gay marriages although I wouldn't be surprised,if the 'price' was right, for a relaxation of that attitude sometime in the future by some of them.
The Church is in its own little world anyway.

So no,I don't think they should be or could be even forced into conducting gay marriages.
Equally I don't think they are right to oppose gay marriage and I cannot see why 2 people who really love each other and want to commit for life to each other, should be denied having full recognition of that and the marriage they want.
Especially when it is not against any law in this Country now.

[Marsh.]

So you want people's opinions and thoughts to be forced to change?

If a religion believes homosexuality is wrong, does any homosexual care? Would they want to be part of that religion/church?

It's like a black person wanting to join the KKK on the proviso that they change their stance on white supremacy bull.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

So you want people's opinions and thoughts to be forced to change?

If a religion believes homosexuality is wrong, does any homosexual care? Would they want to be part of that religion/church?

It's like a black person wanting to join the KKK on the proviso that they change their stance on white supremacy bull.

..I do understand what you're saying Marsh..but I think for me anyway, I see it differently in that it's not just about 'one day'/a wedding day as such..it's more about the whole 'concept' of religion and faith and how it should be a positive and a loving thing and how it should 'lead by example' type thing...I know someone who was brought up to have faith and yeah, he would have liked to have had a church wedding but accepted that he couldn't but also because he works with children, he's not allowed to talk about his wedding/marriage/relationship in the way that a heterosexual person can...which is wrong that he basically has to 'hide his love' and just carries on prejudice with homosexuals...and I personally think it's something that turns people against having a faith, which can also be very positive..if only it would show tolerance and open mindedness ...but yeah, I don't think this is only about 'one special day' in the lives of two people..should churches be forced to carry out gay marriage services...no they shouldn't, they shouldn't have to be forced, they should just be doing it...it's wrong that someone should feel that they can't stand up to anyone and say, this is the person I love and yeah they're the same gender as me...this is just my personal opinion and from the perspective of Christian/Catholic beliefs, not from any other religious beliefs...but 'turning their back/casting out' which basically it is, goes against the whole 'love and tolerance' of the faith, surely....



..anyway, I never get involved in religious discussions.....

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I do understand what you're saying Marsh..but I think for me anyway, I see it differently in that it's not just about 'one day'/a wedding day as such..it's more about the whole 'concept' of religion and faith and how it should be a positive and a loving thing and how it should 'lead by example' type thing...I know someone who was brought up to have faith and yeah, he would have liked to have had a church wedding but accepted that he couldn't but also because he works with children, he's not allowed to talk about his wedding/marriage/relationship in the way that a heterosexual person can...which is wrong that he basically has to 'hide his love' and just carries on prejudice with homosexuals...and I personally think it's something that turns people against having a faith, which can also be very positive..if only it would show tolerance and open mindedness ...but yeah, I don't think this is only about 'one special day' in the lives of two people..should churches be forced to carry out gay marriage services...no they shouldn't, they shouldn't have to be forced, they should just be doing it...it's wrong that someone should feel that they can't stand up to anyone and say, this is the person I love and yeah they're the same gender as me...this is just my personal opinion and from the perspective of Christian/Catholic beliefs, not from any other religious beliefs...but 'turning their back/casting out' which basically it is, goes against the whole 'love and tolerance' of the faith, surely....



..anyway, I never get involved in religious discussions.....

You should always do so, that is a brilliant piece of work as to a post Ammi.

It just about says everything,ending with the really strong basic 'love and tolerance' part of faith.
Something it seems that Churches need to re-learn and start to live by themselves.

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..I do understand what you're saying Marsh..but I think for me anyway, I see it differently in that it's not just about 'one day'/a wedding day as such..it's more about the whole 'concept' of religion and faith and how it should be a positive and a loving thing and how it should 'lead by example' type thing...I know someone who was brought up to have faith and yeah, he would have liked to have had a church wedding but accepted that he couldn't but also because he works with children, he's not allowed to talk about his wedding/marriage/relationship in the way that a heterosexual person can...which is wrong that he basically has to 'hide his love' and just carries on prejudice with homosexuals...and I personally think it's something that turns people against having a faith, which can also be very positive..if only it would show tolerance and open mindedness ...but yeah, I don't think this is only about 'one special day' in the lives of two people..should churches be forced to carry out gay marriage services...no they shouldn't, they shouldn't have to be forced, they should just be doing it...it's wrong that someone should feel that they can't stand up to anyone and say, this is the person I love and yeah they're the same gender as me...this is just my personal opinion and from the perspective of Christian/Catholic beliefs, not from any other religious beliefs...but 'turning their back/casting out' which basically it is, goes against the whole 'love and tolerance' of the faith, surely....

Oh, I completely see where you're coming from and mostly agree with that stance about things not making complete sense in a lot of religions. I just don't think the government interfering and forcing people to allow this/believe this is quite a step in the right direction.

I feel people can stand up to them if they so wish and campaign or debate with them about what they believe. But forcing them to abide by one belief through no change from themselves is counter productive I think.

We'll no doubt end up with another broken faction of the church who accept homosexuality and a myriad of other things too.

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

Oh, I completely see where you're coming from and mostly agree with that stance about things not making complete sense in a lot of religions. I just don't think the government interfering and forcing people to allow this/believe this is quite a step in the right direction.

I feel people can stand up to them if they so wish and campaign or debate with them about what they believe. But forcing them to abide by one belief through no change from themselves is counter productive I think.

We'll no doubt end up with another broken faction of the church who accept homosexuality and a myriad of other things too.

..yeah, sorry if I seemed as though I was getting on my high horse a bit there because I really wasn't...hmmm, it's actually less to do with religion specifically but more of a worrying prejudice that is being carried through generations...at school, we had two marriages in the same year, one heterosexual and one homosexual and the heterosexual one/member of staff is allowed to say, hey this is my intended OH/who I married and introduce them as such to the children..but the homosexual/member of staff isn't allowed to say anything other than ..this is a friend....I know that the children we have are very young to understand sex very much but that would be the same if it was sex between a heterosexual couple or a homosexual couple... so no one is talking about sex as such, just a marriage between two people who love each other..even pre-school children understand weddings and brides/grooms etc and what their perceptions of them are..anyway, so long as male/female marriages carry on being portrayed as the 'norm'/and as the only thing young children are given as 'examples', prejudice and intolerance will continue on and on..as they get older, some views and minds will be 'educated' but unfortunately others won't because they will stay with what was instilled in them from an early age....

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..yeah, sorry if I seemed as though I was getting on my high horse a bit there because I really wasn't...hmmm, it's actually less to do with religion specifically but more of a worrying prejudice that is being carried through generations...at school, we had two marriages in the same year, one heterosexual and one homosexual and the heterosexual one/member of staff is allowed to say, hey this is my intended OH/who I married and introduce them as such to the children..but the homosexual/member of staff isn't allowed to say anything other than ..this is a friend....I know that the children we have are very young to understand sex very much but that would be the same if it was sex between a heterosexual couple or a homosexual couple... so no one is talking about sex as such, just a marriage between two people who love each other..even pre-school children understand weddings and brides/grooms etc and what their perceptions of them are..anyway, so long as male/female marriages carry on being portrayed as the 'norm'/and as the only thing young children are given as 'examples', prejudice and intolerance will continue on and on..as they get older, some views and minds will be 'educated' but unfortunately others won't because they will stay with what was instilled in them from an early age....

aw that's awful Ammi, my kids have been aware of homosexuality since they were quite young and neither of them would bat an eyelid at a gay couple or think there was anything strange about gay marriage and I think that's the right way to go about things and to really nip homophobia in the bud

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..yeah, sorry if I seemed as though I was getting on my high horse a bit there because I really wasn't...

Oh, no way. It didn't.

Originally Posted by Ammi

hmmm, it's actually less to do with religion specifically but more of a worrying prejudice that is being carried through generations...at school, we had two marriages in the same year, one heterosexual and one homosexual and the heterosexual one/member of staff is allowed to say, hey this is my intended OH/who I married and introduce them as such to the children..but the homosexual/member of staff isn't allowed to say anything other than ..this is a friend....I know that the children we have are very young to understand sex very much but that would be the same if it was sex between a heterosexual couple or a homosexual couple... so no one is talking about sex as such, just a marriage between two people who love each other..even pre-school children understand weddings and brides/grooms etc and what their perceptions of them are..anyway, so long as male/female marriages carry on being portrayed as the 'norm'/and as the only thing young children are given as 'examples', prejudice and intolerance will continue on and on..as they get older, some views and minds will be 'educated' but unfortunately others won't because they will stay with what was instilled in them from an early age....

Ah, in that case I do agree that the schools need to take a broader approach to education. Even if they are catholic schools it shouldn't be completely governed by that religion.

I mean I went to a catholic school but it didn't stop us being told to use contraception and shown how to stick condoms on tubes. But then I don't know if their attitude to that stuff has changed in recent years.

They should be given as much information as possible to make their own decisions.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

So you want people's opinions and thoughts to be forced to change?

If a religion believes homosexuality is wrong, does any homosexual care? Would they want to be part of that religion/church?

It's like a black person wanting to join the KKK on the proviso that they change their stance on white supremacy bull.

no its not like that whatsoever, what utter nonsense
additonally who are you to speak for all gay people? who are you to label them as all the same with all the same beliefs on religious matters? absurd
many gay people are also religious and many gay people want to get married in a church with the churches blessing
youre not here for the good of gay people, youre here as an attention seeking exercise

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by the truth

no its not like that whatsoever, what utter nonsense
additonally who are you to speak for all gay people? who are you to label them as all the same with all the same beliefs on religious matters? absurd
many gay people are also religious and many gay people want to get married in a church with the churches blessing
youre not here for the good of gay people, youre here as an attention seeking exercise

There will be many churches willing to give their blessing though. I would think (or hope rather) that most will do them willingly. Just doesn't make sense to force them to do it...it would taint the ceremony anyway surely? I cant imagine getting married knowing that the vicar didnt want to do it, and he had a stony face all the way through

[arista]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

So you want people's opinions and thoughts to be forced to change?

If a religion believes homosexuality is wrong, does any homosexual care? Would they want to be part of that religion/church?

It's like a black person wanting to join the KKK on the proviso that they change their stance on white supremacy bull.

Yes will Never Happen

Those God people have their book
No Gays.



Of Course their is No God
so its just a fable book guiding them.



Feel The Force

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes will Never Happen

Those God people have their book
No Gays.



Of Course their is No God
so its just a fable book guiding them.



Feel The Force

Bang on right Arista

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by arista

Yes will Never Happen

You surprise me arista, I never thought you'd be so against freedom of speech.

But I suppose if it means forcing people to fall in line with your own thoughts it doesn't really matter to you.

[arista]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

You surprise me arista, I never thought you'd be so against freedom of speech.

But I suppose if it means forcing people to fall in line with your own thoughts it doesn't really matter to you.

No freedom of speech is fine
unless its against a Old Church
that would be better used as a Disco
for the young

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by arista

No freedom of speech is fine
unless its against a Old Church
that would be better used as a Disco
for the young

There is no unless about it. You're either for freedom of speech or you're not.

[thesheriff443]

saw a sign in a church yard a few days ago, it said,
under the same management for 2000 years!

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by thesheriff443

saw a sign in a church yard a few days ago, it said,
under the same management for 2000 years!

Wow! That's quite a feat for that church. It was also nice of the Romans to not knock it down when they saw it getting built

[Nedusa]

In simple terms think of it as joining a club which has rules which are all agreed on by the members of that club. So if you want to join that club you would have to agree to abide by their rules.

You surely would not expect to join said club and demand they change the rules to suit you.

For club substitute church and therein lies the problem.

I think a new club needs to be started, one where the rules are more relaxed and suit more people.

[daniel-lewis-1985]

Lets be honest most straight couples who get married in churches are not truly practicing their faith they are simply doing it as its tradition not to be recognized by god.

Who deserves to get married in a church more, a devout gay Christian, church going couple or a man and woman who do not believe in god and are simply using the church as a nice setting.

The bible does say man should not lie with man though so to be honest I totally understand a vicar or priest not wanting to engage in it, it would go against their faith and they would be in their eyes going against god.

It doesn't matter now the fact is we CAN get married and unless they find a loop hole in the bible then I 100% understand why some churches feel uncomfortable about it.

[Marsh.]

See I can't quite understand a "devout gay Christian".

I know many people kind of pick and choose which parts of faith to follow, but this is different, this is being part of a religion that is actively against who you are.

As I say, it's like a black person joining the KKK on the condition that they stop with the racism.

[daniel-lewis-1985]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

See I can't quite understand a "devout gay Christian".

I know many people kind of pick and choose which parts of faith to follow, but this is different, this is being part of a religion that is actively against who you are.

As I say, it's like a black person joining the KKK on the condition that they stop with the racism.

I know but many gay people still believe in god as apparently everyone was created equally ect, they choose to bypass the judgment in the Bible.

Its just a hyperthetical situation.

If you were to choose who should be accepted in the eyes of god who would you choose a couple who believed in him and respected and followed his rules or a couple who never prayed and did not practice the faith at all?

It should be about faith not the gender but the bible doesn't say that.

Its just a ****ed up debate no one will ever win.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by 08marsh

See I can't quite understand a "devout gay Christian".

I know many people kind of pick and choose which parts of faith to follow, but this is different, this is being part of a religion that is actively against who you are.

As I say, it's like a black person joining the KKK on the condition that they stop with the racism.

no its not like that whatsoever.

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by the truth

no its not like that whatsoever.

Actually it is a bit like that.