[bots]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

As Labour supporters are we not entitled to a view?
I really object to your accusations that ALL Labour supporters were in support of taking the UK to war, that is NOT true.

labour represents a very wide spectrum of views compared to insular little activist parties like ukip

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

labour represents a very wide spectrum of views compared to insular little activist parties like ukip

And Labour has also a LONG, LONG, history of deceit, corruption, mismanagement, waste, broken election promises, 'U' Turns and failures compared to 'insular little activist parties like ukip'.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

labour represents a very wide spectrum of views compared to insular little activist parties like ukip

I agree, I don't pay any mind or get drawn out by provocative comments it's a to and fro that never ends well

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Sorry, but I can't accept this as it's a complete and utter reversal of the true status quo - it is the Left Wing on here who in the main arrogantly presume that their views are the absolute truth and who either 'gang up' to 'shout down' any opposing views, or ignore posts which expose their views as wrong only to then post those same fallacious views on other threads.

The EU DID irrefutably see the first light of day as a a plan by defeated Nazis to conquer Europe economically, and the UK subscribed to the EU on terms which were wholly unfavourable to the UK but covertly favourable to a succession of treacherous bastards like Ted Heath who took us into this madness for their own mercenary and greedy reasons.

There are NO genuine benefits to our being in the EU or staying in the EU and NO WAY that we can ever recoup the trillions of pounds which being in the EU has cost the tax payers of this country during our 40 years of that unmitigated disaster of a membership.

Is there a business or investment scheme which any SANE person would subscribe to after suffering increasing financial losses year in year out for 40 years?

Is there even a business or investment scheme which would STILL BE IN BUSINESS after suffering such increasing losses year in year out?

Like the corruptly run Nationalised Industries before it, and like EVERY inept UK Government there has ever been, and like every corrupt and inept Council and Public Sector body this country has ever seen, the EU survives because the horrific results of corruption and waste and inept fiscal practices, are easily lessened because the huge holes in the balance sheets are not so instantly observable when we are talking trillions of pounds of PUBLIC MONEY - that never-ending well which the corrupt and greedy can perpetually return to, and when in addition the fabulously wealthy corporations, businessmen and bent political figures who DO GAIN from our membership of the EU at the expense of the UK, ALL OWN AND CONTROL the vast PRO-EU propaganda machines which took us in and have kept us in despite the TRUTH BEING OUT THERE, and DESPITE the warnings of honourable, TRUTHFUL men like NIGEL FARAGE who that same propaganda machine has constantly lied about and ridiculed and continues to do so.

The EU is unique in that it is the ultimate example of disgustingly greedy Capitalists BLATANTLY employing a perverse form of Communism to increase their own personal wealth and that of their upper social class at the expense and to the detriment of the lower classes:

'From each regardless of his means to each according to his greed'

THESE GUYS are the ONES BENEFITING from the EU NOT US. THEY get the GRANTS and KICKBACKS and we PAY the BILLIONS PER YEAR COSTS AND STAND THE FINANCIAL LOSSES which enable this situation to continue.

40 years of unmitigated failure, corruption, wasteful mismanagement, and negative annual balance sheets amounting to trillions of pounds in losses to the UK.

The Common Agriculture Policy with its subsidies to the wrong people, the butter and cheese mountains and wine and milk lakes which have KEPT the PRICE OF OUR FOOD three times HIGHER than it SHOULD have been for that 40 years, the decimation of our Fishing Industry, the loss of our Sovereignty, Our control of our Judicial System, Borders etc etc etc.

It's PURE MADNESS.

After 40 years, now, all of a sudden - after Farage had woken up some of the slumbering populace who had overfed on all the pro-EU propaganda - Cameron is going to negotiate better this and that and shet Marigolds.

It's BS.

Even the "three million jobs will go if we exit the EU" claim which treacherous lying ***** like Clegg keeps spouting as gospel is a false premise and a lie. The very authors of the report which that claim is MISQUOTED from have repeatedly and publicly DENIED that that's what they said or meant.

They actually said that "3 million jobs could be dependent upon our export market." - with NO MENTION OF THE COMMON MARKET.

Get us out.

With respect Kirk you have hammered people against UKIPs stance as being left wing militants,in a generalised way, you are not the only one but in doing so you do insult people of that persuasion.

I respect the right of anyone to support who they please, I have said many times on here, I think it a disgrace that UKIP could get 3,800,000 votes and only 1 seat.

I have also, over the last months noted the worth of some of UKIPs social policies, such as scrapping the bedroom tax and ending ATOS style re-assessments of the sick and disabled.

My moan with UKIP is the big ones unfortunately, the EU and immigration.

You slam down anything I say, others too, its not for me to say who, just for their views which like you, they are entitled to hold too.

I wasn't on here for the last election and I am sad that I was on for this one, since I have come to alter how I think of some I really respected.
You were one, however, I am not going to accept being generalised as a left wing militant,so since that has only come from UKIP supporters,I will stand against it.

All those statistics you quote are fine but if we wanted to, they could be presented another way that could back most of our arguments too.
Statistics say what the people quoting them or gathering them want them to say.

Anyway,you are not having me say,I don't like UKIPs stance on issues or the way the message I stated came across.
You then go straight into the left wing attack on here with the word arrogant added in too, as in relation to my post and my words.
You and I have had some good chats on here and not so good ones,however I am fed up of this left wing prejudice you portray against me and others in a generalised sense on here and in relation to my posts too.

In fact, you know what, I am fed up of here totally anyway and am sick of being got at.
I have really had all I am going to take from you and 2 others on here now, really had it beyond the level of tolerance now.

Needless to say, I disagree with most of what your post outlines anyway too,I won't however use any terminology of what side of politics is right or wrong as to the statements.
I stand by my view, that no party is always right and none always wrong either, it is for people to choose and they should not be belittled,got at or insulted as I and others have been just for having a view that is different to yours and others who sympathise with UKIP.

That all used to be against the rules, it seems it isn't any longer, so maybe I have now been on here too long.
I am not however taking any more of it.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

With respect Kirk you have hammered people against UKIPs stance as being left wing militants,in a generalised way, you are not the only one but in doing so you do insult people of that persuasion.

I respect the right of anyone to support who they please, I have said many time on here, I think it a disgrace that UKIP could get 3,800,000 votes and only 1 seat.

I have also, over the last months noted the worth of some of UKIPs social policies, such as scrapping the bedroom tax and ending ATOS style re-assessments of the sick and disabled.

My moan with UKIP is the big ones unfortunately, the EU and immigration.

You slam down anything I say, others too, its not for me to say who just for their views which like you, they are entitled to hold too.

I wasn't on here for the last election and I am sad that I was on for this one, since I have come to alter how I think of some I really respected,you were one, however, I am not going to accept being generalised as a left wing militant,so since that has only come from UKIP supporters,I will stand against it.

All those statistics you quote are fine but if we wanted to, they could be presented another way that could back most of our arguments too.
Statistics say what the people quoting them or gathering them want them to say.

Anyway,you are not having me say,I don't like UKIPs stance on issues or the way the message I stated came across, you then go straight into the left wing on here with the word arrogant added in relation to my post and my words.
You and I have had some good chats on here and not so good ones,however I am fed up of this left wing prejudice you portray against me and others in a generalised sense on here and in relation to my posts too.

In fact, you know what, I am fed up of here totally anyway and am sick of being got at.
I have really had all I am going to take from you and 2 others on here now, really had it beyond the level of tolerance now.

Needless to say, I disagree with most of what your post outlines anyway too,I won't however use any terminology of what side of poltics is right or wrong as to the statements.
I stand by my view, that no party is always right and none always wrong either, it is for people to choose and they should not be belittled,got at or insulted as I and others have been just for having a view that is different to yours and others who sympathise with UKIP.

That all used to be against the rules, it seems it isn't any longer, so maybe I have now been on here too long.
I am not however taking any more of it.

Joey, apart from the first paragraph - reproduced below - where in my post have I belittled you personally or even the Labour Party?

My post is specifically about the EU and chiefly the corrupt Tories who took us in and are keeping us in.

"Sorry, but I can't accept this as it's a complete and utter reversal of the true status quo - it is the Left Wing on here who in the main arrogantly presume that their views are the absolute truth and who either 'gang up' to 'shout down' any opposing views, or ignore posts which expose their views as wrong only to then post those same fallacious views on other threads."

And even the first paragraph above is NO MORE personal than your posts or Kizzy's or JoshBB's are when opposing my posts or The Truths or LT's, so I do not understand your reaction.

I did not agree with your contentions below and posted a counter. What is wrong with that Joey?

"This is what turns me off UKIP, the rhetoric as to anything they and their supporters don't like or want as being the absolute truth and all that matters.
Everyone else wrong, only they being right, in their view.

The hard extreme of dismissing everything anyone else says that challenges the UKIP viewpoint,usually with nasty put downs and unnecessary personal insults too."

I respect you Joey and I would rather cease posting than have you quit - especially when I do not see anything wrong with my post?

[empire]

in truth socialism has never worked for britain, labour pm james callaghan said to the young people of 1979 that there was no future in this country for them, and he was right, britain then was in decline, and it is on decline right now, because we are suck in the eu, the only thing that would not turn this country into greece is the eu currency, we are lucky to have kept the pound, when labour left number ten cabinet, in 2010, they left a copy note saying their was no more money in the treasury, I believe that labour wasted half of that money on the eu, in turn got nothing back but paying other countries debt's in the eu, today their is no future for the british people, because are mps sold are jobs out to cheap labour,

[Kizzy]

'And even the first paragraph above is NO MORE personal than your posts or Kizzy's or JoshBB's are when opposing my posts or The Truths or LT's, so I do not understand your reaction. '

If our post's were personal they would be removed, I'd rather you didn't bring my name into your posts in an attempt to justify your comments thanks.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by empire

in truth socialism has never worked for britain, labour pm james callaghan said to the young people of 1979 that there was no future in this country for them, and he was right, britain then was in decline, and it is on decline right now, because we are suck in the eu, the only thing that would not turn this country into greece is the eu currency, we are lucky to have kept the pound, when labour left number ten cabinet, in 2010, they left a copy note saying their was no more money in the treasury, I believe that labour wasted half of that money on the eu, in turn got nothing back but paying other countries debt's in the eu, today their is no future for the british people, because are mps sold are jobs out to cheap labour,

the trouble is there is a room for some socialist ideas and iderals, socialist policies but not with the fake new labourites. they are fake they lack any integrity and all they want is power with no actual moral convictions. they are dead in the water

what these new labour fans fail to realise is that I AM SOCIALIST, well a progressive one at least. I applaud much of what Obama has done. I think a lot of it is marvellous. hes especially helped small businesses which I believe are the key to a healthy economy and maybe society at large

example 1) redistribute wealth. simplify , scrap all sly underhand new labour stealth taxes that rob the working classes..simply have a sliding scale of taxes all the way from 10% to 50% at every Ł10,000 all the way up to the multi millionaires

2) fight to scrap vat totally. its an enslavement tax. THIS IS THE BIGGEST THING LABOUR COULD EVER ACHIEVE TO TOTALLY TRNSFORM THE COUNTRY. it would allow thousands of new businesses to grow and challenge the monopolies create enormous competition and enormous innovation and jobs etc etc
3) scrap town centre parking and vastly reduce business rates in town centres for small business.
4) pass a new law making it easier for those falsely accused of bigotry to take action against the false accuser
5) tighten the benefits laws. make the bridge between benefits and work far easier to bridge. its not always the fault of the people on benefits as working 6) hours keeps them all benefits then working over 16 hours risks them losing their homes. people wont take the risk so the system has to change massively. work must be rewarded worklessness must not
7) stop demonising wealth makers , employers , landlords...new labour fans are the most sad cynical blind brainwashed droogs in the country they believe all wealth creators are pernicious bullying money grabbing crooks...when nothing could be further from the truth in many cases...theyre the brave hard working risk takers we must have to move forward and build an economy. same for landlords they have no protection at all
8) name the accusers in all legal cases, the current system is imbalanced and destroys innocents.
9) apologise for the horrific past which frankly will never be forgiven anyway. encourage free speech and stop oppressing the people. give us back our language and our free speech without endlessly falsely accusing people of bigotry. that is exactly the reason we got into this mess
10) quit women only shortlists. theyre illegal, theyre anti democratic theyre a disgrace. yes make it easier for women to get into work to stay in work and support families....but to ban men from running for parliament is a disgrace....even many women will agree on this....ban women only shortlists or men only shortlists for any job....try concentrating on the truly oppressed ie the disabled. totally overlooked for a generation

11) make a promise and deliver it. particularly to try and cut back the mass of red tape created with devolution especially that has made policing impossible, in fact that's made most public sector jobs impossible

12) fight to get back some laws from Europe. they know make up 80% of our laws. get control of our borders and get a points system in place as with most other western societies....try to make a deal with the eu to share out the most desperate cases fairly across Europe. scrap the child benefits to send abroad....immigrants must pay national insurance for the same period as everyone else.....immigration is mostly a good thing. but 300,000 a year consisting of illegals galore is not feasible its plain dangerous

13) rediscover your identity. the unions aren't all good or all bad. they fought for essential rights....but they lost their way and self destructed...remind yourselves what worked and what didn't.

14) the industries? if labour want to stay in Europe then fight to get the red tape lifted on us digging up our black gold , old king coal. we have the best coal in the world under our feet. since its been untouched for 20 years its only gotten even better.....new techniques to pick it out mostly with machines must be exploited. why wait for the germans to dig up our coal? we can liquefy it and use it in 101 different ways too..the germans have increased their coal production by 30% but the laws the eu has changed has allowed the germans to do so and kept us with our hands tied...get a better deal or get out.....the price of commodities goes up and down. so you never turn your back on your greatest natural resources. we have many open casts reopened its possible to get deeper given the right incentives , the right rules too. in wales new labour had to cut back their insane rules in the end and hey presto opencast coal was back overnight

15) stop praising the nhs as perfect just to suck up to the unions to get the votes, people see through it now. roll back the mass of middle management and the stinking corruption and waste in the trust. employ 100s of people instead to assess and deal with patients and staff complaints, stop brushing these matters under the table

16) nhs clear vision. say what you like about the tories but to state their goal of 7 day , 24 7 nhs is an uplifting positive even noble goal....new labours scoffing and sneering is simply embarrassing. the tories are saying lets get more scanned and screened all week and cut the red tape...sometimes it takes weeks just to get a proper test for a blood clot....25,000 a year die from undiagnosed blood clots. labour cannot win by dragging down their opponents or spinning any more...to win you must simply be better than your opponents

17) hold local government and councils to account. scarp the system, overturn it. why are they allowed to waste and still get rewarded for it. reward the councils who come in under budget. simple. that way the councils would get the sewers and roads fixed at the same time to save money. then theyd get their rewards. instead of being rewarded for wasting so they get the same funding next year. its immoral its wasteful its wrong
18) ensure every council has 1 member of the business community representing businesses in every council meeting to state the voice for the economy. this has never happened.
19) limit the period of time a person can lead a council or sit on a council. many go on decades, by which time they have so much dirt on everyone else everyone is too scared to get rid of them. blackmail is rife at councils
20) limit the endless rules and regs councils invent for hammering more fines and tariffs on small businesses. they need a chance to grow and create jobs. instead tighten up regulations on bigger companies instead they have far greater responsibilities and in many cases put lives at risk


that's just a start

[bots]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

And Labour has also a LONG, LONG, history of deceit, corruption, mismanagement, waste, broken election promises, 'U' Turns and failures compared to 'insular little activist parties like ukip'.

Given that ukip are such a small party they are a bit of a mess, and so far don't seem to be adhering particularly to democratic processes within their own party. Corruption, well take a look at the crap surrounding the 650k going to the ukip mp back office. We only have a few examples to go on with ukip, but i'm not perceiving them as some lilly white party, far from it

[the truth]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Given that ukip are such a small party they are a bit of a mess, and so far don't seem to be adhering particularly to democratic processes within their own party. Corruption, well take a look at the crap surrounding the 650k going to the ukip mp back office. We only have a few examples to go on with ukip, but i'm not perceiving them as some lilly white party, far from it

yes you study that and ignore 4 million votes for just 1 seat, typical disingenuous new labourite

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

'And even the first paragraph above is NO MORE personal than your posts or Kizzy's or JoshBB's are when opposing my posts or The Truths or LT's, so I do not understand your reaction. '

If our post's were personal they would be removed, I'd rather you didn't bring my name into your posts in an attempt to justify your comments thanks.

I stated: 'No more personal than' meaning not personal.

And do not be so hypocritical, you often bring other people's names into posts - including mine - and I did not bring your name in to justify any comments because my comments do not NEED justifying. I also did not bring your name in in any derogatory manner so your hollow protests fall on deaf ears I'm afraid.

[bots]

Originally Posted by the truth

yes you study that and ignore 4 million votes for just 1 seat, typical disingenuous new labourite

the things I mentioned have happened since the 4 million voted for them. I very much doubt if half that number would vote for them now.

I am neither disingenuous, as all I have said can be backed up with fact, or a labour supporter. I do however know the difference between a proper political party like the labour party and a mickey mouse one like ukip

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

the things I mentioned have happened since the 4 million voted for them. I very much doubt if half that number would vote for them now.

I am neither disingenuous, as all I have said can be backed up with fact, or a labour supporter. I do however know the difference between a proper political party like the labour party and a mickey mouse one like ukip

Please do not start accusing me that I am; "trying to stifle or suppress anyone who disagrees with me" - or any other such unfair nonsense - as you have done before, because I am doing nothing more than exercising my democratic right to respond as a member of this forum with a counter post to a post which I do not agree with.

You know - the exact same way which you and others do.

First of all, comparing UKIP with the Labour party and describing it as 'mickey mouse' is as ridiculous as comparing the teetering first steps of a toddler with the practiced gait of a a fit 30 year old because UKIP is a relatively fledgling party by comparison with the long established Labour Party, and is therefore replete with all the teething troubles and immaturity one would reasonably expect it to have.

Secondly; you were the first to point out this disparency when you were defending the Labour Party's long history of corruption, malpractice, and failure in another post, implying that because UKIP WERE such a new party "we only have a few examples to go on with UKIP".

Lastly, you state that you: 'very much doubt if half that number (4 million) would vote for UKIP now', and that UKIP are a 'mickey Mouse party' and not a 'proper political party', and claim that "all" you "have said can be backed up with fact", but `I challenge you to POST those facts because the TRUTH is that UKIP are on the rise and have been phenomenally successful in such a very short space of time and despite having ALL the mighty media pro-EU and pro-Immigration media propaganda machine railed against it for years.

As the following FACTS incontrovertibly attest:

1) UKIP has cemented its place as the new third party of British politics after a fresh surge in popularity - this time in the more difficult terrain of parliamentary elections.

2) UKIP took not far off 4 million votes across the country: 3,881,129 according to the BBC’s final figures. That is 12.6% or one in every eight voters.

3) UKIP seized control of its first local authority – Thanet council – taking 33 of its 56 seats.

4) UKIP has its first MP - Douglas Carswell retaining the seat he won in last year’s Clacton byelection. Although only one seat due to the FPTP system, this is a 100% gain on the 2010 total.

5) UKIP has taken second place in 120 seats – up from precisely NONE at the last election.

6) UKIP are sucssefully on target with these results as far as their “2020 Strategy” is concerned, which is; "to get the party lined up as a serious and credible opponent to both Tories and Labour in order to launch a far stronger challenge at the polls in 2020.

7) UKIP also came a very close THIRD in a lot of seats and emerged as a CLEAR threat to the main two parties - notably in Thurrock where it took 31.7% of the vote and just TWO percentage points separate the Conservatives, Labour and UKIP.

8) UKIP's second places allow UKIP to present itself as the main credible opponent to the sitting MPs. A vote for UKIP in these seats no longer seems a wasted protest vote, but a viable means of unseating the discredited purveyors of austerity.

9) UKIP has done well across a surprisingly wide geographical spread with a noticeable UKIP vote in apparently unlikely areas such as parts of Wales.

10) UKIP has even shown by the votes it received in traditional Tory shires and Labour heartlands, that it IS making real connections with the electorate in these traditional Red and Blue strongholds.

11) UKIP has built on its existing presence in the Tory shires, where over the past couple of years it has gained substantial numbers of councillors at the local elections.

12) UKIP have also made great play of the party’s increasing popularity in northern, traditionally Labour constituencies – and the general election vote reflects this.

13) UKIP's policies have been so recognised as TRUE by a GROWING number of the electorate that Cameron and others have been quick to desperately hijack them and regurgitate them as their own - this includes immigration and the EU.

Don't be frightened by the TRUTH for the Truth shall set ye free.

[arista]

The PM is in Riga , Latvia today

http://news.sky.com/story/1488632/ca...u-negotiations

[bots]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

Please do not start accusing me that I am; "trying to stifle or suppress anyone who disagrees with me" - or any other such unfair nonsense - as you have done before, because I am doing nothing more than exercising my democratic right to respond as a member of this forum with a counter post to a post which I do not agree with.

You know - the exact same way which you and others do.

First of all, comparing UKIP with the Labour party and describing it as 'mickey mouse' is as ridiculous as comparing the teetering first steps of a toddler with the practiced gait of a a fit 30 year old because UKIP is a relatively fledgling party by comparison with the long established Labour Party, and is therefore replete with all the teething troubles and immaturity one would reasonably expect it to have.

Secondly; you were the first to point out this disparency when you were defending the Labour Party's long history of corruption, malpractice, and failure in another post, implying that because UKIP WERE such a new party "we only have a few examples to go on with UKIP".

Lastly, you state that you: 'very much doubt if half that number (4 million) would vote for UKIP now', and that UKIP are a 'mickey Mouse party' and not a 'proper political party', and claim that "all" you "have said can be backed up with fact", but `I challenge you to POST those facts because the TRUTH is that UKIP are on the rise and have been phenomenally successful in such a very short space of time and despite having ALL the mighty media pro-EU and pro-Immigration media propaganda machine railed against it for years.

As the following FACTS incontrovertibly attest:

1) UKIP has cemented its place as the new third party of British politics after a fresh surge in popularity - this time in the more difficult terrain of parliamentary elections.

2) UKIP took not far off 4 million votes across the country: 3,881,129 according to the BBC’s final figures. That is 12.6% or one in every eight voters.

3) UKIP seized control of its first local authority – Thanet council – taking 33 of its 56 seats.

4) UKIP has its first MP - Douglas Carswell retaining the seat he won in last year’s Clacton byelection. Although only one seat due to the FPTP system, this is a 100% gain on the 2010 total.

5) UKIP has taken second place in 120 seats – up from precisely NONE at the last election.

6) UKIP are sucssefully on target with these results as far as their “2020 Strategy” is concerned, which is; "to get the party lined up as a serious and credible opponent to both Tories and Labour in order to launch a far stronger challenge at the polls in 2020.

7) UKIP also came a very close THIRD in a lot of seats and emerged as a CLEAR threat to the main two parties - notably in Thurrock where it took 31.7% of the vote and just TWO percentage points separate the Conservatives, Labour and UKIP.

8) UKIP's second places allow UKIP to present itself as the main credible opponent to the sitting MPs. A vote for UKIP in these seats no longer seems a wasted protest vote, but a viable means of unseating the discredited purveyors of austerity.

9) UKIP has done well across a surprisingly wide geographical spread with a noticeable UKIP vote in apparently unlikely areas such as parts of Wales.

10) UKIP has even shown by the votes it received in traditional Tory shires and Labour heartlands, that it IS making real connections with the electorate in these traditional Red and Blue strongholds.

11) UKIP has built on its existing presence in the Tory shires, where over the past couple of years it has gained substantial numbers of councillors at the local elections.

12) UKIP have also made great play of the party’s increasing popularity in northern, traditionally Labour constituencies – and the general election vote reflects this.

13) UKIP's policies have been so recognised as TRUE by a GROWING number of the electorate that Cameron and others have been quick to desperately hijack them and regurgitate them as their own - this includes immigration and the EU.

Don't be frightened by the TRUTH for the Truth shall set ye free.

Sorry, but I don't have the energy to read all of your post. I will say this, come the next election, lets compare where ukip are then. You may not like it, but the facts speak for themselves when I refer to ukip as a mickey mouse party. Its my opinion which I am entitled to, and I am 100% confident that ukip will be a dead party come the next election.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Sorry, but I don't have the energy to read all of your post. I will say this, come the next election, lets compare where ukip are then. You may not like it, but the facts speak for themselves when I refer to ukip as a mickey mouse party. Its my opinion which I am entitled to, and I am 100% confident that ukip will be a dead party come the next election.

This is the most patently false overused claim on here whenever someone has NO ANSWER but you claim what you like.

[bots]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

This is the most patently false overused claim on here whenever someone has NO ANSWER but you claim what you like.

Kirk just stop it please. I have read many of your posts here, and they always take the same pattern. I have plenty time to debate with people who are passionate, yet can appreciate alternative views when appropriate. I will not involve myself in discussions where people think they can bully opinion on others.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Kirk just stop it please. I have read many of your posts here, and they always take the same pattern. I have plenty time to debate with people who are passionate, yet can appreciate alternative views when appropriate. I will not involve myself in discussions where people think they can bully opinion on others.

BitOnTheSlide - you are being unfair to me again. I am not trying to bully anyone, I am referring in this last response, specifically to the totally unbelievable claim that you don't have the energy to read my response, which is ludicrous when you are debating/discussing with me, and highly insulting to me when I have taken the time to respond to you.

You yourself have posted long posts as has lots of others but I have NEVER EVER said that I had not read them, nor would I because how can one debate if he is NOT reading and ingesting his opponent's counter arguments?

Yet this claim is being used more and more on here.

If you cannot answer an argument or have been out-argued say so or say nothing, but do not make ridiculous claims then start to deflect by unjustly accusing me of bullying when all I have done is debated.

It is disgusting and unfair.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by kirklancaster

I stated: 'No more personal than' meaning not personal.

And do not be so hypocritical, you often bring other people's names into posts - including mine - and I did not bring your name in to justify any comments because my comments do not NEED justifying. I also did not bring your name in in any derogatory manner so your hollow protests fall on deaf ears I'm afraid.

I don't think I do, I deliberately don't as I wouldn't want to inadvertently offend anyone.

[arista]

The PM is Live on all Media
speaking in Latvia

[the truth]

In the end Cameron knows the only way to reduce immigration is to overhaul the benefits system (the national insurance contributions required to be paid to qualify)
other than that I don't see any way to control the borders unless were out of the eu

so the European leaders need to ask themselves 1 question, do we allow the uk to amend their welfare benefits as they wish or lose the uk from the eu

(I do think theres a heck of a lot more going on especially the insane rules and regulations that are crippling businesses across Europe and the enormous waste, 1 town in wales has just wasted Ł180,000 on eu money putting up walled gardens on 4 roundabouts, just typical nonsense like this across europe)

[Nedusa]

Originally Posted by the truth

lol what complete and utter lies....typical of the brainwash spin weve had from new labour for the past 20 years...for starters millions of net immigration directly effects the nhs the housing the poverty the welfare state the child benefits the economy everything is directly connected etc etc
as were in the eu we have no real control over our borders, weve allowed vats amounts of illegal immigrants many of whom are criminals plus we should have a points system allowing us to select who comes in

this is a total fiasco. Europe is a disaster as we see with the tens of thousands drowing at sea.....the endless European countries bankrupt, the 50%+ youth unemployment across several European nations....the EU hasn't even handed its own accounts in

ps have you actually read the eu constituton? didn't think so

how dare you or anyone from new labour call anyone racist again....the most discriminatory act in the history of this country came from new labour when they illegally murdered 1 million innocent Iraqis and they actually dare to preach about discrimination...new labour should burn in hell for eternity

Truth by name, truth by nature...

Great Post.... Wish more people would wake up and smell the coffee...

[Kizzy]

How is that truth, attempting to decry the view of others by using the phrase 'typical new Labour' and asking if they've read reams of Legislation isn't an opinion.
The rest is conjecture.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

How is that truth, attempting to decry the view of others by using the phrase 'typical new Labour' and asking if they've read reams of Legislation isn't an opinion.
The rest is conjecture.

more shameful lies from a new labourite

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

more shameful lies from a new labourite

Your post was lies, lies and supposition... I don't have to be a Labourite to see that.