[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by the truth

Hunt is 100% in the right the junior doctors are 100% in the wrong, on every possible level

Can you elaborate on that?

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by the truth

Hunt is 100% in the right the junior doctors are 100% in the wrong, on every possible level

As usual, you are wrong about everything.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

As usual, you are wrong about everything.

as usual youre wrong and you generalise and get personally insulting
Ive explained why hunt is 100% right already, sub standard service on the nhs weekend death rates at the weekend. its disgusting labour did nothing about this in their 13 years. the so called caring party are as always selling out the country to the unions in return for their block votes. why haven't the oh so caring junior doctors fought for 24 hour weekend staffing before? oh that's right because a load of them don't want to work weekends, some will but only for double time the nhs cant afford. the junior docs have a 13.5% pay rise, they have the safer work patterns so their maximum working hours falls from 91 to 72 hours...

they even have the option if they don't like it to go to wales Ireland or Scotland who offer the old contract. sadly those nations will see tens of thousands of innocent people die from neglect on the weekend over the coming years, thats a FACT that's not scaremongering by the way....the docs have zero to complain about. they should stop holding the country to ransom and risking the lives of their patients with their disgusting petty strikes and their greed....hunt is 100% right, the doctors here are 100% wrong,

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by the truth

Hunt is 100% in the right the junior doctors are 100% in the wrong, on every possible level

Totally disagree but then that will be of no surprise to you whatsoever I am sure with respect.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Totally disagree but then that will be of no surprise to you whatsoever I am sure with respect.

You only disagree because of your political leanings, youre ignoring the FACTS. so you Disagree? You disagree that death rates are 16% higher with patients admitted on a sunday than a Wednesday , despite the comprehensive independent surveys proving these FACTS? pls explain how you disagree with these FACTS and this comprehensive independent survey? pls back it up with your FACTS to counter these FACTS. Its you against 300,000 patients

[Tom4784]

Jeremy Hunt won't survive the next few weeks, Cameron's popularity is already as low as can be and I think he'll sacrifice Hunt in an attempt to salvage his own popularity.

[AnnieK]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Jeremy Hunt won't survive the next few weeks, Cameron's popularity is already as low as can be and I think he'll sacrifice Hunt in an attempt to salvage his own popularity.

I agree with this...(hopefully anyway)

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Jeremy Hunt won't survive the next few weeks, Cameron's popularity is already as low as can be and I think he'll sacrifice Hunt in an attempt to salvage his own popularity.

I have a feeling this may happen too

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

Jeremy Hunt won't survive the next few weeks, Cameron's popularity is already as low as can be and I think he'll sacrifice Hunt in an attempt to salvage his own popularity.

I think you make a strong point there again.

[bots]

We can all agree and disagree around the politics about wether the "proposals" are correct or not. I have a more fundamental issue with this edict, and its unfortunately the norm these days rather than the exception. It is the philosophy of ... we are bigger than you, so you will do as we say or you can **** off. I just can't subscribe to that in what is supposed to be an adult civilised world.

At some point there has to be some action to redress this imbalance, otherwise something is going to break.

[the truth]

the FACTS

https://fullfact.org/health/weekend-...nhs-hospitals/

Increased mortality for admissions at the weekend

The study looked at 14 million admissions to NHS hospitals during the 2009/10 financial year. Of these, 300,000 patients died within 30 days of admission. These deaths occurred either in hospital or after the patient had been discharged.

Patients had a 16% greater risk of death within the 30 day period if they'd been admitted on a Sunday than if admitted on a Wednesday. That's adjusting for things like the age of patients or their social deprivation, which might otherwise have distorted the result. For patients admitted on Saturday the risk was was 11% higher than for Wednesday, and for Monday it was 2%. On other days of the week there was no statistically significant difference.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by the truth

the FACTS

https://fullfact.org/health/weekend-...nhs-hospitals/

Increased mortality for admissions at the weekend

The study looked at 14 million admissions to NHS hospitals during the 2009/10 financial year. Of these, 300,000 patients died within 30 days of admission. These deaths occurred either in hospital or after the patient had been discharged.

Patients had a 16% greater risk of death within the 30 day period if they'd been admitted on a Sunday than if admitted on a Wednesday. That's adjusting for things like the age of patients or their social deprivation, which might otherwise have distorted the result. For patients admitted on Saturday the risk was was 11% higher than for Wednesday, and for Monday it was 2%. On other days of the week there was no statistically significant difference.

Did you read the bit that said: "too few senior staff"

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by the truth

the FACTS

https://fullfact.org/health/weekend-...nhs-hospitals/

Increased mortality for admissions at the weekend

The study looked at 14 million admissions to NHS hospitals during the 2009/10 financial year. Of these, 300,000 patients died within 30 days of admission. These deaths occurred either in hospital or after the patient had been discharged.

Patients had a 16% greater risk of death within the 30 day period if they'd been admitted on a Sunday than if admitted on a Wednesday. That's adjusting for things like the age of patients or their social deprivation, which might otherwise have distorted the result. For patients admitted on Saturday the risk was was 11% higher than for Wednesday, and for Monday it was 2%. On other days of the week there was no statistically significant difference.

I don't think I understand this? So does this mean, for example someone could have been brought in on a Sunday, die on the following Thursday and class as a 'Sunday death' for the sake of the poll as they were brought in on that day?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

I don't think I understand this? So does this mean, for example someone could have been brought in on a Sunday, die on the following Thursday and class as a 'Sunday death' for the sake of the poll as they were brought in on that day?

For every person admitted on a sunday they were 16% more likely die than those admitted on a Wednesday...so if 6000 people died after being admitted on Wednesday, that would equate to 7000 people dying after being admitted on a sunday. the doctors and labour, disingenuously deny there is any link between the skeleton staff provided at weekends and this 16% difference in death rates. that's like denying 2 + 2 is 4. you have skeleton staff and more people will get sick, less will be treated to the same standard and yes sadly more people will die. its high time we had these proper comprehensive 7 day a week shift patterns to ensure the exactly same staffing and levels of care are the same high standard throughout , its frankly insane its never happened before

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by the truth

For every person admitted on a sunday they were 16% more likely die than those admitted on a Wednesday...so if 6000 people died after being admitted on Wednesday, that would equate to 7000 people dying after being admitted on a sunday. the doctors and labour, disingenuously deny there is any link between the skeleton staff provided at weekends and this 16% difference in death rates. that's like denying 2 + 2 is 4. you have skeleton staff and more people will get sick, less will be treated to the same standard and yes sadly more people will die. its high time we had these proper comprehensive 7 day a week shift patterns to ensure the exactly same staffing and levels of care are the same high standard throughout , its frankly insane its never happened before

The way it is worded makes not much sense though?

Its all about dying within 30 days of admission date right? So again, if someone was admitted on a Sunday, but then died later in the week...would this class as a Sunday death (or % ) for the sake of the poll? Because if this is how it works, it actually proves nothing given they didn't even die at the weekend, they were just admitted then? They could have survived 3 weeksned and then died midweek...if that makes sense?

Or have I got it totally wrong and its nothing to do with 30 days and they die ON the day they are admitted?

I'm not trying to be awkward, I just genuinely don't understand the way its all worded

[Kizzy]

The facts are junior doctors work on weekends ... where is it written they aren't.
Is is presumed all doctors clock off on fri night and don't clock on again untill mon morning?
If for arguments sake there was a discrepancy would it mot be due to the nature of weekend admissions? (drinking and violence)

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

The facts are junior doctors work on weekends ... where is it written they aren't.
Is is presumed all doctors clock off on fri night and don't clock on again untill mon morning?
If for arguments sake there was a discrepancy would it mot be due to the nature of weekend admissions? (drinking and violence)

Plus GP services are less accessible at the weekend, people are less likely to seek medical help on a Saturday than they are on a Monday and this can make what was curable on Saturday, incurable by Sunday.

As for junior doctors, whilst there may be plenty of them at the weekend (especially in A&E) to some extent their hands are tied because if 6 juniors have to wait for one GP/consultant to sign off an admission, those junior doctors just get stuck in the same old backlog along with their patients.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

The facts are junior doctors work on weekends ... where is it written they aren't.
Is is presumed all doctors clock off on fri night and don't clock on again untill mon morning?
If for arguments sake there was a discrepancy would it mot be due to the nature of weekend admissions? (drinking and violence)

the minority work weekends. by staggering this into shift patterns in a contract it ensures all junior doctors work some weekends, thus spreading the workload more fairly across all junior doctors. this was a very brave move by the conservatives , labour are cowards, they have ducked this issue for decades and sat on the sidelines while thousands of sick patients were neglected with the 2nd class weekend service.

in time we will see mortality rates FALL in England and the weekday / weekend death rates discrepancy will fall. in the resu of the uk, the weekend death rate will continue to be much much worse. yet again as with the economic figures , especially the unemployment rates, the tories will hammer new labour

ps I am NOT a tory voter, never have been. but quite simply they are 100% right in this. labour are 100% wrong.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

the minority work weekends. by staggering this into shift patterns in a contract it ensures all junior doctors work some weekends, thus spreading the workload more fairly across all junior doctors. this was a very brave move by the conservatives , labour are cowards, they have ducked this issue for decades and sat on the sidelines while thousands of sick patients were neglected with the 2nd class weekend service.

in time we will see mortality rates FALL in England and the weekday / weekend death rates discrepancy will fall. in the resu of the uk, the weekend death rate will continue to be much much worse. yet again as with the economic figures , especially the unemployment rates, the tories will hammer new labour

ps I am NOT a tory voter, never have been. but quite simply they are 100% right in this. labour are 100% wrong.

How many?... how many work, what is 'the minority'?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

How many?... how many work, what is 'the minority'?

less than the majority

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by the truth

less than the majority

So 'the majority' work through the week and 'the minority' at weekends?... Sorry that's a tad simplistic, and not the issue surrounding the new jr doctors contract.

[bots]

Its an incredibly complex subject, and its honestly ridiculous to try and debate it here, cherry picking facts that suit whatever political persuasion one belongs to.

The last labour government had three terms in office to turn things round, they wasted huge sums of money on it and got nowhere. The tories are trying a different approach, quite right given labours complete failure.

All this gesturing is just laughable.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Its an incredibly complex subject, and its honestly ridiculous to try and debate it here, cherry picking facts that suit whatever political persuasion one belongs to.

The last labour government had three terms in office to turn things round, they wasted huge sums of money on it and got nowhere. The tories are trying a different approach, quite right given labours complete failure.

All this gesturing is just laughable.

it is complex, but the truth is simple. too many people are neglected and die on weekends and something must be done about it.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

Its an incredibly complex subject, and its honestly ridiculous to try and debate it here, cherry picking facts that suit whatever political persuasion one belongs to.

The last labour government had three terms in office to turn things round, they wasted huge sums of money on it and got nowhere. The tories are trying a different approach, quite right given labours complete failure.

All this gesturing is just laughable.

What gesturing...debating on contemporary issues you mean?

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

What gesturing...debating on contemporary issues you mean?

no burying your head in the sand while innocent thousand die of neglect on the weekends.