[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Well that is good and they will need to influence their govts if at the end of the negotiations somewhere around 1919/20, the deal is not acceptable.

I understand several EU nations can hold referenda on the issue but I may have understood that wrong but then it will still have to be then ratified by all Nations in the EU anyway.

If all the problems/worries/concerns cannot be erased as to the objections being raised to same then it is unlikely all EU nations will in fact end up ratifying it,which will in effect be needed to enact it anyway.
If we were top leave the EU, then we would have no say and not vote in it at all being agreed or not,yet it may be possible unless,the out organisation can solidly prove otherwise, that we may have to accept it,whether it ends up being a good or bad thing, even if out.

Cameron has certainly led the way when it comes to the TTIP and he's going to continue that push if we leave the EU but his position is going to be rocky because we, the citizens we will have far more influence in Westminster than we do in Europe.
Voting to remain in the EU is giving consent to the TTIP without any democratic scrutiny whatsoever. Voting for Brexit will at least ensure the TTIP undergoes democratic scrutiny through both Houses.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Cameron has certainly led the way when it comes to the TTIP and he's going to continue that push if we leave the EU but his position is going to be rocky because we, the citizens we will have far more influence in Westminster than we do in Europe.
Voting to remain in the EU is giving consent to the TTIP without any democratic scrutiny whatsoever. Voting for Brexit will at least ensure the TTIP undergoes democratic scrutiny through both Houses.

...but, we have in place in parliament a law that states any new treaties have to be put to the UK voters before they can be ratified by the PM of a UK govt.
This may well have to be put to the voters again if it is deemed new substantial change.

It is not even sure to be made of the EU set up and if as you say, other Nations are complaining then it is unlikely to get the consent of the other EU nations of who, all 27 if we leave or 28 if we say will have to agree to.

Are you that sure we will have that much scrutiny with being out, if this is deemed an issue from the EU that needs to be put to the voters before our govt can agree to ratify it,how will being out help.
There will be no need if out of the EU, for our govt to then ask the voters their opinion on it.

'If' it is ever accepted as part of the EU system and in the unlikely event then even gets the ratification of all the nations of the EU, how if we were out may we not be affected by it for certain.

Do you really believe,particularly with this present govt and indeed even Tony Blair's Labour one, that the voters feel we have influence there that much.
I certainly don't, just my thinking but this govt particularly rarely listens to anyone.

I would myself rather take the chance with this having to come to the voters in the UK again IF, and I stress if, the EU comes to any firm agreement on it for it to be put to all the nations of the EU,which would mean it would likely come to the voters of the UK in a referendum.

Outside the EU,then Westminster, if it was possible to be part of this, no way would the UK govt then ask the voters of the UK anything about it,there would be no need to.

If there are so many issues as to it now, it may never even become part of anything as to the EU in the end despite the lengthy negotiations anyway.
If they cannot get things better as to it.

[Kazanne]

I don't think a lot of people have clue what to do,but I definitely think some will vote to come out merely to piss Cameron off, which is really stupid as Britains future is all that should matter,people should get the facts , read them study them, then decide what they think would be best,and not just jump on any old bandwagon of hate.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Kazanne

I don't think a lot of people have clue what to do,but I definitely think some will vote to come out merely to piss Cameron off, which is really stupid as Britains future is all that should matter,people should get the facts , read them study them, then decide what they think would be best,and not just jump on any old bandwagon of hate.

Spot on Kazanne, a couple of weeks or so ago I actually heard a group of people on about this in the supermarket I go to,who were all saying they hadn't a clue as to anything on the EU but they were voting out because that should get rid of Cameron as PM.

It is really sad, and for me the worst part whatever the result, it is not likely to be a decision made from an informed position at all by a large number voting.
Even worse for those who have been put off the whole thing by the absolute shambles of the in and out campaigners.

You are right as to thinking carefully about the future,this is why I am talking in the main to those aged 17 and under now,after all it is their futures too,the UKs and of course ours we are voting on.

There is no turning back once we vote out, if that happens and the constitutional chaos I think there then will be after such a result, then that must badly affect our status, success and futures across the board.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Spot on Kazanne, a couple of weeks or so ago I actually heard a group of people on about this in the supermarket I go to,who were all saying they hadn't a clue as to anything on the EU but they were voting out because that should get rid of Cameron as PM.

It is really sad, and for me the worst part whatever the result, it is not likely to be a decision made from an informed position at all by a large number voting.
Even worse for those who have been put off the whole thing by the absolute shambles of the in and out campaigners.

You are right as to thinking carefully about the future,this is why I am talking in the main to those aged 17 and under now,after all it is their futures too,the UKs and of course ours we are voting on.

There is no turning back once we vote out, if that happens and the constitutional chaos I think there then will be after such a result, then that must badly affect our status, success and futures across the board.

staying in the eu will be the end of democracy in europe and the beginning of ttip and the new world order corporate takeover

THIS IS THE BIGGEST REFERENDUM IN THE HISTORY OF EUROPE, MAYBE THE WORLD

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by the truth

staying in the eu will be the end of democracy in europe and the beginning of ttip and the new world order corporate takeover

THIS IS THE BIGGEST REFERENDUM IN THE HISTORY OF EUROPE, MAYBE THE WORLD

Sorry, I do not agree at all with the first bit of your post.
However I respect your personal stance on it and I agree with your last part 100%,this is the biggest referendum in the history of Europe and that is why the risks of out need to be far more outlined as well as possible benefits.

We already know there is good and bad about being in the EU but in it we 'are' still a successful Nation and that should continue to be the case if we remain in..

Maybe too we could be still as successful if out, maybe even do better but I have seen nothing at all of substance to say we could do as well or do better out.
The absence of that surety makes leaving a dangerous risk to take for the UKs future in my view.
I know you will never agree with that in any way at all.

However that is just as equally I won't with you, while that substantiation as to the out scenario is non existent from the out organisations.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Sorry, I do not agree at all with the first bit of your post.
However I respect your personal stance on it and I agree with your last part 100%,this is the biggest referendum in the history of Europe and that is why the risks of out need to be far more outlined as well as possible benefits.

We already know there is good and bad about being in the EU but in it we 'are' still a successful Nation and that should continue to be the case if we remain in..

Maybe too we could be still as successful if out, maybe even do better but I have seen nothing at all of substance to say we could do as well or do better out.
The absence of that surety makes leaving a dangerous risk to take for the UKs future in my view.
I know you will never agree with that in any way at all.

However that is just as equally I won't with you, while that substantiation as to the out scenario is non existent from the out organisations.

The out cant substantiate as many claims and figures because the inners are the establishment and control all of the massive organisations that spoon feed the masses the FIGURES. The gap between rich and poor is greater in america than ever and thats whats coming our way. stating in will be the death of the individual.

Look around your home town, look at photos from the past 100 years....notice how the 100s of local traders and wonderful colourful shop fronts and even more colourful characters packed the streets in the old photos...the markets were glorious, the architecture unique and timeless....see how each decade these people and characters and splendour, nay glory....disappears.....see how so many of these wonderful people and places are wiped out by grotesque huge monolithic corporations ....are these supermarkets really better for us? world record obesity, world record diabetes, world record child obesity and lack of exercise

As we read up what all these wars in the last 50 years were about ? mass power mass control, sales of weapons to our enemies oil land resources for corporations, imposed dictatorships, the corruption is on a scale that is unreal to comprehend ....news corporations were numbered over 50 in the 1980s now there are only 6 that own 90% of the news.....only this week we discover that millions of cars are sold on a pack of lies to rip off the masses.....any fine now is miniscule compared to their sales...the sheer enormity of corporate corruption involved in the 2008 crash? who benefitted? the rich, who was hit? the poor of course, in america the poor lost everything and couldnt even afford healthcare...as we socialized the banks losses and the bankers kept their bonuses and of course none of them went to jail
the banks have not been broken up they have become bigger in size and fewer in numbers in monstrous monopolies

These corporations are now so powerful, wealthier than many nations, with politicians paid off, they are propped up by mind boggling rules that make it impossible for sme's to ever compete for a piece of the market again

Even the jumble sale market , the deliveries market , and ticket market has been corporatised across the globe with ebay paypal amazon and stubhub...all in cahoots with google who provide the searches. taking enormous ..percentages and enslaving the masses to work for their monolithic monoplies for peanuts. theyve even managed to wipe out the last bastion of the unqualified worker across the world, simple taxi driving
Theyve even got staff down as self employed now so paying minimum wages are negated by these corporations for millions of staff.

the EU is an unmitigated disaster.....it has failed in absolutely everything. Its insane central control has lead to this disaster...everynation bar germany and austria is poorer....many have gone bankrupt, Italy had its entire government replaced by the EU? Its just insane. at its heart is an insatiable desire to control everything and everyone. there is also a lot of petty anti american bigotry and sobbery which will of course achieve nothing and will ironically be wiped out with ttip when the american corporations march in to europe and cherry pick everything

[DemolitionRed]

@Joey

TTIP is a long series of trade agreements that have been or are going to be voted on by MEPs and not the general public. If a political majority like an agreement that agreement turns into a reality regardless of what European citizens want. TTIP is many different things and so it doesn’t have to be voted on as a whole and a lot of agreements have already been passed. The only ones presently slowing things down are Germany and the nationalist French but this is merely a blip in the grand scheme of things.

The entire thing is not only undemocratic but its cloaked in secrecy and the only information us grubby little citizens are privy to is from either leaked documents or what our media are told to tell us. As far as Camerons concerned, its all running along splendidly and he’s leading the way.

This is a bilateral agreement between the EU and the US so if we pull out of the EU, we are no longer part of that agreement. America is well aware that the EU would likely reject Britain being part of that agreement but America needs our (or at least Cameron’s) dedicated support. America needs us in this deal and that’s the only reason Obama is willing to spend time on our shores lying to us all about why its so important we remain in the EU. He doesn’t care about us, he doesn’t care about Europe but he hugely cares about the TTIP.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

@Joey

TTIP is a long series of trade agreements that have been or are going to be voted on by MEPs and not the general public. If a political majority like an agreement that agreement turns into a reality regardless of what European citizens want. TTIP is many different things and so it doesn’t have to be voted on as a whole and a lot of agreements have already been passed. The only ones presently slowing things down are Germany and the nationalist French but this is merely a blip in the grand scheme of things.

The entire thing is not only undemocratic but its cloaked in secrecy and the only information us grubby little citizens are privy to is from either leaked documents or what our media are told to tell us. As far as Camerons concerned, its all running along splendidly and he’s leading the way.

This is a bilateral agreement between the EU and the US so if we pull out of the EU, we are no longer part of that agreement. America is well aware that the EU would likely reject Britain being part of that agreement but America needs our (or at least Cameron’s) dedicated support. America needs us in this deal and that’s the only reason Obama is willing to spend time on our shores lying to us all about why its so important we remain in the EU. He doesn’t care about us, he doesn’t care about Europe but he hugely cares about the TTIP.

staying in the eu will be the end of democracy in europe and the beginning of ttip and the new world order corporate takeover

THIS IS THE BIGGEST REFERENDUM IN THE HISTORY OF EUROPE, MAYBE THE WORLD

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

@Joey

TTIP is a long series of trade agreements that have been or are going to be voted on by MEPs and not the general public. If a political majority like an agreement that agreement turns into a reality regardless of what European citizens want. TTIP is many different things and so it doesn’t have to be voted on as a whole and a lot of agreements have already been passed. The only ones presently slowing things down are Germany and the nationalist French but this is merely a blip in the grand scheme of things.

The entire thing is not only undemocratic but its cloaked in secrecy and the only information us grubby little citizens are privy to is from either leaked documents or what our media are told to tell us. As far as Camerons concerned, its all running along splendidly and he’s leading the way.

This is a bilateral agreement between the EU and the US so if we pull out of the EU, we are no longer part of that agreement. America is well aware that the EU would likely reject Britain being part of that agreement but America needs our (or at least Cameron’s) dedicated support. America needs us in this deal and that’s the only reason Obama is willing to spend time on our shores lying to us all about why its so important we remain in the EU. He doesn’t care about us, he doesn’t care about Europe but he hugely cares about the TTIP.

I think we have to realise you and I are not going to agree on this.

It is still being negotiated and worked out, estimated to not reach
conclusion until likely 2019/2020 anyway.
There are loads of possible changes that may come into play for any final deal to be presented in that time.

What is the President lying about?
He has said it is a decisions for the voters but the USA would prefer us to stay in, that is the thrust of all he will be saying.
The Chinese and Indian leadership have said the same thing.

I think you will find that the TTIP deal has to be ratified by all the Nations of the EU.
Some will be able to put it to referendum too, we would more than certain be one that would do so and have to do so from the law put in place as to future changes in the EU set out by the coalition govt. between 2010 and 2015

I really don't see the problem myself and if there are any unsavoury elements to it, then it needing to be ratified by all the EU nations will be a pretty hard thing to achieve in my book.

Also,as was pointed out on Question time tonight, no one batted an eyelid when Obama said Scotland should remain part of the UK during the independence referendum.
He is just expressing a view and you,I and all others can ignore him or listen to him, agree with him or disagree with him but I think as a strong ally and friend of the UK, he has a right to express his view, especially as loads of other Nations have already too.
All advocating we remain in the EU too.

You may have decided out is best, that's fine, your choice and your right.
I remain an in person and still believe being at the top table of the EU is far better than being out with no knowledge of where things may go after coming out, and also having no control at all as to what conditions the EU can impose on us initially and then even change in the future too.

I would far rather be there in the thick of it,helping make decisions and also challenge decisions coming towards the UK too.
We can do that if in, we can do none of it out.

[kirklancaster]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

@Joey

TTIP is a long series of trade agreements that have been or are going to be voted on by MEPs and not the general public. If a political majority like an agreement that agreement turns into a reality regardless of what European citizens want. TTIP is many different things and so it doesn’t have to be voted on as a whole and a lot of agreements have already been passed. The only ones presently slowing things down are Germany and the nationalist French but this is merely a blip in the grand scheme of things.

The entire thing is not only undemocratic but its cloaked in secrecy and the only information us grubby little citizens are privy to is from either leaked documents or what our media are told to tell us. As far as Camerons concerned, its all running along splendidly and he’s leading the way.

This is a bilateral agreement between the EU and the US so if we pull out of the EU, we are no longer part of that agreement. America is well aware that the EU would likely reject Britain being part of that agreement but America needs our (or at least Cameron’s) dedicated support. America needs us in this deal and that’s the only reason Obama is willing to spend time on our shores lying to us all about why its so important we remain in the EU. He doesn’t care about us, he doesn’t care about Europe but he hugely cares about the TTIP.

[DemolitionRed]

I think a lot of people will vote out because they believe it will sort out the immigrant problem. At the end of the day, most people decide on a personal level and at the moment there's a big majority who feel immigrants are a problem to them on a personal level.

If they'd done their homework, they would realize it won't make any difference to immigration.

[waterhog]

but the point is - we pay so many millions to be in this - and to then be told things.

we will be better off out of it I think.

[Alf]

He's here, Landed last night.

[Kizzy]

With regard to TTIP, what govt in it's right mind would pass legislation to give corporations the right to sue them? It makes no sense :/

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

With regard to TTIP, what govt in it's right mind would pass legislation to give corporations the right to sue them? It makes no sense :/

its happened already across the globe....the eu will take backhanders all day long

[the truth]

yep thats the magnificent eu usa ttip agreement for you enlsaved 500 odd million to these stinking corporate criminals ad infinitum

[arista]

The USA President is about to Go live
in 10 Downing Street.

I wish he would just Fly back To America
another Gun killing awaits "his sitting on his hands" attitude

[arista]

Live now
PM talks first

[Alf]

So he's using blackmail then?

[joeysteele]

TTIP is not expected to reach any conclusion to put to the EU Nations until likely 2020.

By then it will either be vastly modified and far less controversial for those who do not like parts of it,or it will be not acceptable at all, otherwise all the EU member Nations will never ratify it.
You Dem Red have said EU nations are protesting against it,so they will never ratify it and it will need to be ratified by 'all' the EU member Nations.

Maybe you and the truth are right and it is at present at this stage of negotiation not desirable but it has a long way to go before we get to the final hurdle for it for sure.
I would certainly not be going to make a decision based again on something that 'might' happen and which is not already doing so.
It may in the end prove to be something beneficial to all once the full extent of its make up is known at the 'end of the talks and negotiation' process.

Sorry to me this is a bit of a red herring,until the full final draft and result of negotiations and talks are known in full, it can really not be considered a good or bad thing until that time.
It will have to be right and beneficial to all, for all the 27 or 28 EU members,(depending on if we leave), to support ratifying it, that's a real certainty.
Then we may still be affected by it too if we do leave in some indirect way,so again no assurances we can avoid it if we leave anyway.

Anyway I for sure know both yours and the truths's stances on the unfinished negotiations as to TTIP and I think I have now made mine very clear too.
So its a case of wait and see really as to just what is the 'actual' final drafting of any 'possible', not 'certain' agreement as to it.

[DemolitionRed]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

TTIP is not expected to reach any conclusion to put to the EU Nations until likely 2020.

By then it will either be vastly modified and far less controversial for those who do not like parts of it,or it will be not acceptable at all, otherwise all the EU member Nations will never ratify it.
You Dem Red have said EU nations are protesting against it,so they will never ratify it and it will need to be ratified by 'all' the EU member Nations.

Maybe you and the truth are right and it is at present at this stage of negotiation not desirable but it has a long way to go before we get to the final hurdle for it for sure.
I would certainly not be going to make a decision based again on something that 'might' happen and which is not already doing so.
It may in the end prove to be something beneficial to all once the full extent of its make up is known at the 'end of the talks and negotiation' process.

Sorry to me this is a bit of a red herring,until the full final draft and result of negotiations and talks are known in full, it can really not be considered a good or bad thing until that time.
It will have to be right and beneficial to all, for all the 27 or 28 EU members,(depending on if we leave), to support ratifying it, that's a real certainty.
Then we may still be affected by it too if we do leave in some indirect way,so again no assurances we can avoid it if we leave anyway.

Anyway I for sure know both yours and the truths's stances on the unfinished negotiations as to TTIP and I think I have now made mine very clear too.
So its a case of wait and see really as to just what is the 'actual' final drafting of any 'possible', not 'certain' agreement as to it.

Whilst I have a lot of respect for you Joey and whilst I support many of the things you support, to write another post explaining why we shouldn't be worried about something so fundamentally important and then finishing that post with a bolded "we will all have to wait and see", just feels like an attempt to belittle such an important subject.

That's fine ... debate over!

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by DemolitionRed

Whilst I have a lot of respect for you Joey and whilst I support many of the things you support, to write another post explaining why we shouldn't be worried about something so fundamentally important and then finishing that post with a bolded "we will all have to wait and see", just feels like an attempt to belittle such an important subject.

That's fine ... debate over!

Hey, now just a minute here, I do not belittle anything.

How can a deal not yet finalised, not negotiated fully and not agreed which needs to be put eventually to all the EU nations not have to have the consideration of a wait and see,This may yet turn out to be something 'possibly' really beneficial to the UK in the end.

If all I have to do to debate is agree with you and others then sorry that is not debating but I still fail to see how proposals, and not finalised deals, can have anything other than a wait and see approach to be fair to all negotiating sides.

We will for sure need the USA more if we leave and sorry but I am not one of those anywhere in the UK who is a USA basher,I believe they often do have the UKs best interests in mind.
No one gets everything right which is why these talks and negotiations on TTIP were expected to be finalised in 2014 but now have no expectation of that until 2019 or even 2020.

Clearly loads of detail still be rejected,included and worked out.
Until I see that final presentation and finalised deal that is going to be put to the EU member Nations, that is when I will judge it, not on speculation and proposals stages only.

Fine however, debate over but sorry, I still think I am as right in my thinking as you think you are in yours too, but certainly as you wish,debating over with you then..

[arista]

The PM said
"Democracy"

What The Feck
The E. U. is far from a Democracy

[Alf]

I've turned off, just baloney from the pair of them.