[Beso]

If you are going to lay out ridiculous comparisons you will get ridiculous answers.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by parmnion

If you are going to lay out ridiculous comparisons you will get ridiculous answers.

I'm really not in the slightest interested in what you think with respect.
I never really engage with you on here.

It won't at all however be a ridiculous comparison, IF and it's a big IF, he did REALLY choose to use his power to go down that road.

Quite frankly I don't recall even asking a question to answer anyway.

[Beso]

If it's such a big IF, why make the comparison in the first place..all that does is divide further.


Let's get bb back, and your memory of our interactions on that from 2010 onwards b4 you pathetically attempt to distance yourself from me.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by parmnion

If it's such a big IF, why make the comparison in the first place..all that does is divide further.


Let's get bb back, and your memory of our interactions on that from 2010 onwards b4 you pathetically attempt to distance yourself from me.

2010 onwards and BB are years ago now.

Also I'll make any comparisons I wish to that are within forum rules.
I thankfully don't need your permission to my knowledge to do so.

Also I didn't engage with you, I was talking to and with arista and Samm.

I won't respond again, so have a nice evening.

[Beso]

I already am, thanks

[user104658]

Imagine if people had voted Boris into office in 2019 and it had been like "right, well, that's that then, Tories for the next hundred years! The people have spoken!"

That said, I do think it's too early, simply because of Brexit. Like it or not, we're on a small island with a land border with England, and being out of the EU now means that border gets very complicated (ESPECIALLY if Scotland was to rejoin the EU). Basically I think the trade situation between the UK and EU needs to settle down before it can even be considered, sadly.

Secret option number 3 of course is staying outside of the "full" EU whilst having tailored deals with both the EU and England, allowing EU-England trade to flow through Scotland and making us super rich .

We want our happy Scottish fish

[James]

I came across this article (titled 'Paean to Britain') by the TV presenter Neil Oliver that is basically what I think about all this.

Here it is - https://www.these-islands.co.uk/publ...o_britain.aspx

Also I was thinking recently about how with the US election that some Trump supporters were supporting the idea that some states would breakaway from the United States, and how that is just as ridiculous as this.

[Oliver_W]

What's their end endgame? They want to be an independent country ... Under Nicola Sturgeon?

Okay then

[Crimson Dynamo]

Most scots think Nicola is doing a great job

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

Most scots think Nicola is doing a great job

Who am I to talk, we're ruled by Boris Bloody Johnson But at least the England part of the country sees him for the clown he is! (I hope)

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Who am I to talk, we're ruled by Boris Bloody Johnson But at least the England part of the country sees him for the clown he is! (I hope)

England sees Johnson as a clown.
I don't think so.
It's really England that elected him.

For me, Nicola Sturgeon is the only real states-person as to any part of the UK leadership.
Which is also why in part she's hands down winning on the independence issue too.
Because she's the only open and trustworthy leader in my opinion.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

England sees Johnson as a clown.
I don't think so.
It's really England that elected him.

For me, Nicola Sturgeon is the only real states-person as to any part of the UK leadership.
Which is also why in part she's hands down winning on the independence issue too.
Because she's the only open and trustworthy leader in my opinion.

I think that's part of the uncomfortable truth in England; rising support for Scottish independence has less to do with increased Scottish nationalism, and more to do with increased skepticism for the government sitting in Westminster. A lot of people now supporting Indy would - as their first choice - much rather see fairer and more competent government for the whole of the UK but it's becoming painfully obvious that it's just not going to happen... not any time soon. So any way of getting away from it is the next best option.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think that's part of the uncomfortable truth in England; rising support for Scottish independence has less to do with increased Scottish nationalism, and more to do with increased skepticism for the government sitting in Westminster. A lot of people now supporting Indy would - as their first choice - much rather see fairer and more competent government for the whole of the UK but it's becoming painfully obvious that it's just not going to happen... not any time soon. So any way of getting away from it is the next best option.

i think most scots watch Nicola and watch the mess down south with Hancock and work it out..

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I think that's part of the uncomfortable truth in England; rising support for Scottish independence has less to do with increased Scottish nationalism, and more to do with increased skepticism for the government sitting in Westminster. A lot of people now supporting Indy would - as their first choice - much rather see fairer and more competent government for the whole of the UK but it's becoming painfully obvious that it's just not going to happen... not any time soon. So any way of getting away from it is the next best option.

I agree with all that too.
Very strong point.

[Oliver_W]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

England sees Johnson as a clown.
I don't think so.
It's really England that elected him.

Back then he was just a "good ole boy" who was the last halfway decent Mayor of London, and generally an amusing buffoon. Covid wasn't a thing yet, so his levels of incompetence weren't yet widely known.

Also, he was against Jeremy Corbyn. When there are two bad options, voting for a party headed by either of them is hardly a ringing endorsement.

(For what it's worth, I spoiled my ballot. I wanted a hung parliament, I couldn't stand the thought of actively voting for either)

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Oliver_W

Back then he was just a "good ole boy" who was the last halfway decent Mayor of London, and generally an amusing buffoon. Covid wasn't a thing yet, so his levels of incompetence weren't yet widely known.

Also, he was against Jeremy Corbyn. When there are two bad options, voting for a party headed by either of them is hardly a ringing endorsement.

(For what it's worth, I spoiled my ballot. I wanted a hung parliament, I couldn't stand the thought of actively voting for either)

They'd vote for him again tomorrow.

[James]

It's almost impossible for a Scottish government to become unpopular because of the way the devolved powers were set up. The Scottish Parliament was given enough power so that it could look competent, but not enough that it could mess things up or do anything very controversial.

The previous Labour-led administration didn't get unpopular, it just lost power to the SNP because the UK Labour government at the time lost popularity.

[arista]

[arista]

"Most Scots think Nicola is doing a great job,"

Sure LT,
but on Independence.
Not all Scottish want to be alone in the world.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

"Most Scots think Nicola is doing a great job,"

Sure LT,
but on Independence.
Not all Scottish want to be alone in the world.

Well not all UK citizens wanted to not stay part of the EU.
However 51.9 wanted to leave so we had to leave.

Are you now saying the lesser view should be considered as to Scottish independence..
No matter where the figures now are on independence, if polls are to be believed, it's now in excess of around 52%

I put no faith in polling, however one way to settle the issue again is to have a new vote on independence, following the brexit vote which has further alienated more Scots voters as to the Union of the UK.

You will never get everyone in a Country voting the same way.

It's an odd democracy you now portray though, that because ALL Scots don't want independence that should decide if there's another referendum.
That's actually a scary kind of democracy.

That because ALL DON'T want independence, then they SHOULDN'T get it, no matter how many DO want it .
So also should be dictated to only England's view too.


I think it sad were Scotland to leave the Union.
However myself loving the Country and of Scots ancestry on my Father's side.
If I had a vote, I'd vote for Independence there now.
Because the attitude of some parts of England and some of those who support this current awful Con party, plus in fact some ignorant Con backbenchers who show no respect to the Scots , or to who the Scots send to represent them in Westminster either.
Sheer ignorance.

That leaves me believing Scotland could be better independent, or at least no worse, I also actually believe strong support for Scotland would come from many other Nations around the World too.

[arista]

"Are you now saying the lesser view should be
considered as to Scottish independence"


Now we are out of the EU
the UK must stay together.


Johnson PM will Never Give the SNP
their wish.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

"Are you now saying the lesser view should be
considered as to Scottish independence"


Now we are out of the EU
the UK must stay together.


Johnson PM will Never Give the SNP
their wish.

You keep saying Johnson will NEVER give the SNP their wish.
That would be constitutionally wrong , unacceptable and likely illegal too.

If the Scottish voters support the SNP even stronger in future elections, you really are advocating in this new post brexit democracy extreme brexiteers want.
That the majority and possibly majority of the people and the individual Nations of the UK.
Should be and can be totally dismissed and denied their wishes.

That's dictatorship, that the biggest Nation of the UK can in effect possibly bully the others by FORCING them to be part of something they'd vote not to.

Is this was meant by brexit taking democracy back.
However democracy as to England's style, for only England to dictate.

That is actually frightening..

The best way to try to ensure the UK stayed together would have been to have stayed in the EU actually.
Brexit only heaped more stronger burning fuel on the independence issue.
To the leave the UK side.

It's even heading towards the same possibly in Northern Ireland too.

[user104658]

To be honest I do sometimes think it's a sad reality that Scottish independence may not be workable under the current circumstances - I don't think there's any feasible way to get the border to work until things have settled down between Westminster and the EU. Of course, I think that will happen at some point, functional trade between the UK and EU is beneficial to all involved, and I think a "special" agreement at the Scotland/England border is very possible too, but things are currently so up in the air that it would be a major issue.

If I'm 100% going with my gut, I think it's not ideal to break up the Union unless all involved are part of an EU-wide trading community of some sort again (certainly possible) or the EU hits the skids completely (...also kind of possible).

I'm still heavily pro-Autonomy for Scotland but CURRENTLY the best option for that, to me, is probably a devo-max arrangement where Scotland has full control over taxation and spending within Scotland, education, benefits, etc. (we do already have this partially and benefits are transitioning more, but I'd prefer it to be full). Essentially, "independence within the UK union", no direct Westminster control or laws, as really it should always have been.

Would work especially well within something like that CANZUK idea (which I don't think will actually happen) but basically, if it did, I think Scotland could (and should) operate as an independent entity within that, not as a "UK package deal".

But yeah. A hard border, I unfortunately don't think is workable in the 21st century... it's one of the reasons that the EU itself is so necessary on the continent. You might as well officially allow free movement - because how on earth would you stop it?

[arista]

"unacceptable and likely illegal too."


No Joey
under a Pandemic
everything changes.


Johnson PM has every right
to say NO to the weak SNP.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by arista

"unacceptable and likely illegal too."


No Joey
under a Pandemic
everything changes.


Johnson PM has every right
to say NO to the weak SNP.

I'm really sorry but your attitude to the SNP is similar to the Cons in England,
Part of the reason the SNP is so currently strong in Scotland.

They are far from weak in Scotland.

Your attitude in line with Johnson's is only going to add to the support for them too.

She isn't even advocating holding a referendum until after the pandemic.
What excuse will be used once the virus is more controlled.

There's no need for hard borders either as TS is saying.
Other European Nations alongside and adjoining EU Nations don't have much in the way of hard borders
If negotiations are done correctly.
They shouldn't be necessary.

I stand by my statement, no PM can override democracy, and should'nt be allowed to.
If he keeps up the rhetoric he's spouting, then the SNP and the push to independence will only get stronger in Scotland.

Whether right, wrong, wise or worth going for independence, is and should be for the Scots voters to decide.
Not being dictated to by any UK PM of ANY party.

If you think that is going to unite Scotland more to the UK.
You're frankly sorry to say almost like being on another planet.