[user104658]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

Absolutely right TS.
It will be Junior Doctors who either leave or fail to make a success of this contract who will be blamed for all that goes wrong in the NHS after the imposing of this contract by some, never this rotten shameless govt.

The NHS staff are still struggling with coming to terms with the top down re-organisation done after 2011, that few wanted and Cameron and the Conservatives said was never going to take place.

The govt. getting away with that too.

So many don't take the time to peak beneath the curtain though Joey... All they see is the illusion that's created. For every one who sees it there are ten or more who never will... So it will sadly never change.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The NHS will fall and the (let me be blunt) ****ing idiots who have bought into the Tory-designed orchestration of its demise will not only not care, they will cheer. Until they get cancer 30 years later, and their family ends up living in crippling debt at the hands of a US-style private healthcare system. If they can afford anything beyond the most basic treatment, at all. And then they'll rage into the sky, "This is wrong! Why is it like this?? Healthcare should be for everyone!" but it won't be and they will die.

The NHS is not destroying itself. Junior Doctors are not destroying the NHS. Nurses aren't. Patients aren't. Even the NHS bureaucrats (although yes there are too many penpushers) aren't destroying the NHS.

The Tories are deliberately and systematically sabotaging the NHS so that it can be dismantled for personal profit. And that is the whole story. This is obvious, there is abundant evidence (and no I'm not going to spoonfeed it to you, don't be ****ing lazy), and yet people still just aren't getting it. And won't get it, until it's too late. Or probably at all. They'll get their cancer in 30 years and say "Waaah we used to have the NHS but those Junior Doctors ruined everything!", because people will buy whatever bull**** is crammed into their slavering mush.

[Cherie]

They will lose support if they carry on with 5 day strikes, this is playing right into the governments hands. I'm not sure how well supported these strikes will be even by the junior doctors themselves

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The NHS will fall and the (let me be blunt) ****ing idiots who have bought into the Tory-designed orchestration of its demise will not only not care, they will cheer. Until they get cancer 30 years later, and their family ends up living in crippling debt at the hands of a US-style private healthcare system. If they can afford anything beyond the most basic treatment, at all. And then they'll rage into the sky, "This is wrong! Why is it like this?? Healthcare should be for everyone!" but it won't be and they will die.

The NHS is not destroying itself. Junior Doctors are not destroying the NHS. Nurses aren't. Patients aren't. Even the NHS bureaucrats (although yes there are too many penpushers) aren't destroying the NHS.

The Tories are deliberately and systematically sabotaging the NHS so that it can be dismantled for personal profit. And that is the whole story. This is obvious, there is abundant evidence (and no I'm not going to spoonfeed it to you, don't be ****ing lazy), and yet people still just aren't getting it. And won't get it, until it's too late. Or probably at all. They'll get their cancer in 30 years and say "Waaah we used to have the NHS but those Junior Doctors ruined everything!", because people will buy whatever bull**** is crammed into their slavering mush.

[Jack_]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

The NHS will fall and the (let me be blunt) ****ing idiots who have bought into the Tory-designed orchestration of its demise will not only not care, they will cheer. Until they get cancer 30 years later, and their family ends up living in crippling debt at the hands of a US-style private healthcare system. If they can afford anything beyond the most basic treatment, at all. And then they'll rage into the sky, "This is wrong! Why is it like this?? Healthcare should be for everyone!" but it won't be and they will die.

The NHS is not destroying itself. Junior Doctors are not destroying the NHS. Nurses aren't. Patients aren't. Even the NHS bureaucrats (although yes there are too many penpushers) aren't destroying the NHS.

The Tories are deliberately and systematically sabotaging the NHS so that it can be dismantled for personal profit. And that is the whole story. This is obvious, there is abundant evidence (and no I'm not going to spoonfeed it to you, don't be ****ing lazy), and yet people still just aren't getting it. And won't get it, until it's too late. Or probably at all. They'll get their cancer in 30 years and say "Waaah we used to have the NHS but those Junior Doctors ruined everything!", because people will buy whatever bull**** is crammed into their slavering mush.

This really is one of the posts of the year for me. I honestly don't know whether to feel angry, disheartened, frustrated or amused anymore at the people who are just clueless as to what's really going on or fall over themselves trying to defend what is such a transparent operation. I despair, I really do.

The whole thing is so glaringly obvious. Deliberately underfund the NHS and treat the people who work for it like dog**** until it inevitably crumbles, and then peddle and pump out the 'it can't sustain itself!' rhetoric and all of a sudden people become more sympathetic to increased privatisation.

We are heading down a very dark road indeed and I feel like nobody realises it

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Jack_

This really is one of the posts of the year for me. I honestly don't know whether to feel angry, disheartened, frustrated or amused anymore at the people who are just clueless as to what's really going on or fall over themselves trying to defend what is such a transparent operation. I despair, I really do.

The whole thing is so glaringly obvious. Deliberately underfund the NHS and treat the people who work for it like dog**** until it inevitably crumbles, and then peddle and pump out the 'it can't sustain itself!' rhetoric and all of a sudden people become more sympathetic to increased privatisation.

We are heading down a very dark road indeed and I feel like nobody realises it

Yep, my sentiments exactly Jack

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Jack_

This really is one of the posts of the year for me. I honestly don't know whether to feel angry, disheartened, frustrated or amused anymore at the people who are just clueless as to what's really going on or fall over themselves trying to defend what is such a transparent operation. I despair, I really do.

The whole thing is so glaringly obvious. Deliberately underfund the NHS and treat the people who work for it like dog**** until it inevitably crumbles, and then peddle and pump out the 'it can't sustain itself!' rhetoric and all of a sudden people become more sympathetic to increased privatisation.

We are heading down a very dark road indeed and I feel like nobody realises it

party truth partly fiction

some of this is exaggerated hysterical paranoia conspiracy theories.....the nhs collapsed under labour , the waiting lists are down the mrsa and diseases are down, the ombudsmen complaints procedures have been strengthened...to privatise small parts of the nhs to ensure the whole thing runs better and the service is better and the waiting lists are shorter but the service is still free then that is for the good...the numbers getting private insurance cover has actually fallen which counters your argument...we must tear up the insane 2004 labour / gp doctors contract which let them off out of hours work....gp doctors MUST sign a new contract where they must cover some out of hours
The real corruption is in the medicines and tablets being bought up by private companies across the globe. cancer tablets costing 50p to make resold at £500? the amount of cancer treatments only available privately is a disgrace
in my experience the nhs was better under thatcher than under new labour, but that simply underlines how corrupt stupid and wasteful new labour were

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by Jack_

This really is one of the posts of the year for me. I honestly don't know whether to feel angry, disheartened, frustrated or amused anymore at the people who are just clueless as to what's really going on or fall over themselves trying to defend what is such a transparent operation. I despair, I really do.

The whole thing is so glaringly obvious. Deliberately underfund the NHS and treat the people who work for it like dog**** until it inevitably crumbles, and then peddle and pump out the 'it can't sustain itself!' rhetoric and all of a sudden people become more sympathetic to increased privatisation.

We are heading down a very dark road indeed and I feel like nobody realises it

Absolutely right, although I would go as far as to say as to the sentiment at the very end your post, that a good number of those against the Junior Doctors do see it.
However they will not admit in any shape or form,this govt could be wrong and may even 'want' to see too the near or full privatisation of the English NHS.

You are correct totally Jack_, this is exactly what this govt is doing, treating the people who work for it and at present particularly the junior Doctors like dog****.

How anyone can support that and switch the blame to the Junior Doctors only is totally beyond my understanding I am afraid.

[bots]

the junior doctors are effectively withholding care from patients, which is something that totally contradicts what being a doctor stands for. Just wait till the stories come out of all the affected patients, when no-one has any respect for them.

Disgusting behaviour by the doctors in my opinion.

[AProducer'sWetDream]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

the junior doctors are effectively withholding care from patients, which is something that totally contradicts what being a doctor stands for. Just wait till the stories come out of all the affected patients, when no-one has any respect for them.

Disgusting behaviour by the doctors in my opinion.

But they are protecting patients in the long run. If this contract is imposed, patients will be much less safe.

[bots]

Originally Posted by AProducer'sWetDream

But they are protecting patients in the long run. If this contract is imposed, patients will be much less safe.

absolute fiction

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by bitontheslide

absolute fiction

Let's trust the minister who wrote a book about the privatisation of the NHS then?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by AProducer'sWetDream

But they are protecting patients in the long run. If this contract is imposed, patients will be much less safe.

That is absolutely correct, the Junior Doctors know that, we do not and the govt. that does nothing as to work in hospitals does not either.

The Junior Doctors know this is a dangerous contract as to real 'quality' care of patients, that is why they are so against it.

Anything can look like it will work in theory, the practice of it is often a very different outcome.

The Junior Doctors further know, if patients suffer even more than now,after the imposition of this contract, then they will be the ones being blamed for the errors and things being overlooked.

Incredible to me, how so few blame the government handling of this and are so eager it appears to see public support for the Doctors to slip away.
If this was a Labour govt. 'forcing' a contract on the Junior Doctors,the criticism of that govt would be deafening probably on here.
Deafening from me too would it be as to whatever govt was in power,as for me the imposing of this contract is utterly wrong.

If it goes ahead,and is imposed against the will of the Junior Doctors, I do sadly hope that more and more Junior Doctors then throw in the towel and leave the English NHS, taking their badly needed skills and caring elsewhere, to a far more appreciative people and nation, rather than this one.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by joeysteele

That is absolutely correct, the Junior Doctors know that, we do not and the govt. that does nothing as to work in hospitals does not either.

The Junior Doctors know this is a dangerous contract as to real 'quality' care of patients, that is why they are so against it.

Anything can look like it will work in theory, the practice of it is often a very different outcome.

The Junior Doctors further know, if patients suffer even more than now,after the imposition of this contract, then they will be the ones being blamed for the errors and things being overlooked.

Incredible to me, how so few blame the government handling of this and are so eager it appears to see public support for the Doctors to slip away.
If this was a Labour govt. 'forcing' a contract on the Junior Doctors,the criticism of that govt would be deafening probably on here.
Deafening from me too would it be as to whatever govt was in power,as for me the imposing of this contract is utterly wrong.

If it goes ahead,and is imposed against the will of the Junior Doctors, I do sadly hope that more and more Junior Doctors then throw in the towel and leave the English NHS, taking their badly needed skills and caring elsewhere, to a far more appreciative people and nation, rather than this one.

it is absolutely incorrect as Ive explained to you 101 times before...junior doctors work 19 hours less hours maximum per week on this contract than the old one. FACT. this contract simply spreads the weekend workload between more junior doctors. the junior doctors strike is purely about money, they want double time at weekends. simple.

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by the truth

it is absolutely incorrect as Ive explained to you 101 times before...junior doctors work 19 hours less hours maximum per week on this contract than the old one. FACT. this contract simply spreads the weekend workload between more junior doctors. the junior doctors strike is purely about money, they want double time at weekends. simple.

It isn't and I know it isn't,which is why 2 of my Cousins who were Junior Doctors, have now left the NHS in England and are moving abroad now.
They were only concerned as to the welfare of the Patients long term and felt under this contract, they would be too far stretched with even less time for quality care too.

You and I do not agree on this issue and haven't all through however I always respect and should respect,that you have had really bad experiences as to the NHS in the past.

I do though know personally my Cousins, none of whom are greedy and just wanting more money.

However, they are 2, with 2 more to follow, who have now joined those who already have left the NHS and many others will follow if this contract is in fact imposed on Doctors.
If anyone really believes that will actually help the NHS or make for a much better 7 day service, a big shock as to that is more than likely now coming.
Once those Doctors are gone and are fully appreciated elsewhere, respect for their caring and skill coming then will be too late from those in England.
Very, very sadly in my view.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by Kizzy

With both my kids having congenital conditions I just daren't envisage this

Maybe your family could help with the treatment and free up a nurse.

[Kizzy]

Originally Posted by Livia

Maybe your family could help with the treatment and free up a nurse.

They don't require a nurse just an annual consultant appointment for now.

[the truth]

Junior doctors do not cover weekends to anywhere near the same amount of working hours. That is partly why weekend service is sub standard. To say otherwise is a lie

[the truth]

the do gooders who claim to be the only group who really care for the nhs , said nothing about the absurd doctors contract in 2004 under new labour,, which let 90% of GP's off all out of hours work? why are they so silent on that? dont you think its high time that contract was ripped up and they started covering some of these hours?

[joeysteele]

Originally Posted by the truth

the do gooders who claim to be the only group who really care for the nhs , said nothing about the absurd doctors contract in 2004 under new labour,, which let 90% of GP's off all out of hours work? why are they so silent on that? dont you think its high time that contract was ripped up and they started covering some of these hours?

I criticised Labour a lot as to the NHS too,very heavily from 2006.

I wasn't on here then, Labour should have built up and ensured protection for the NHS but did not do so, they should have ensured privatisation would have been near impossible.

However, Labour I doubt would be trying to, or would in any way get away with at all, imposing this contract on Junior Doctors.

Labour disappointed me too as to not dealing with the waste from NHS managers in the NHS, to me they are like parasites as to the NHS.

Back to this issue however, this govt. has handled this terribly, what the govt. are doing in threatening to 'impose' this contract is simply wrong and for that the Junior Doctors have my support and always will.
This is a crisis, in my opinion,of this goverment's making not the Junior Doctors at all.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by the truth

the do gooders who claim to be the only group who really care for the nhs , said nothing about the absurd doctors contract in 2004 under new labour,, which let 90% of GP's off all out of hours work? why are they so silent on that? dont you think its high time that contract was ripped up and they started covering some of these hours?

It makes sense for GP surgeries to be open weekends. It could work here quite well as we have 8 separate doctors under one surgery and a couple could cover mainly weekends, or split it all equally. What wouldn't be acceptable was to expect those 8 GPs to still do the hours they currently do and forcing them to cover weekends too..and maybe take a paycut, which is the way it would likely be pushed onto them. And then people would support the government in that too as it would be the 'greedy GPs who don't want to work weekends' rather than people looking at it objectively

On a side note, our surgery trialed half day opening on a Saturday not long ago..its over now but I do wonder what came of it. Will mention it on thursday when I am next there as I imagine it was popular. Would definitely take the pressure off A&E though if this was more widespread

Also I said nothing about the GP contracts in 2004 as I knew **** all about politics back then and didn't even know anything about the contract you speak about

[the truth]

Look it up please it's insane

[Tom4784]

Millionaire junior doctors

Oh Truth, sometimes I love you.

[the truth]

It's true some do private . Many have been doctors over 10 yrs plus enormous overtime ...some earn over £200k per annum in overtime

[bots]

People can try and paint the picture however they like, but the junior doctors are holding the country to ransom. This is not like a train cancellation, this is peoples lives. These are the very people that signed up to being in a position of trust, and they are killing any trust anyone could have in them. Yes, they may well win their battle in the short term, but not in the long term, believe me. No good will come from it.