[the truth]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..this isn't true though at all and it's the 'non pc' as it were, throwing a 'pc' out there and doing the exact same thing as is being objected to is the thing...Brexit for instance as you mentioned that..?...I think that it's clear that 'ist' was a factor for some, that's something I've personally experienced so I know it to be true for some but to say it was a factor in voting for all wouldn't be true and maybe only true of a tiny percentage with others and the majority voting Brexit for many reasons...the same with remain voters, immigration and wanting all out open borders wasn't a thing for most either but maybe it was for some/again maybe a tiny percentage...people can't say through PC..?..well yes they can, people can say and they always have been able to, they say their concerns about immigration and no one will judge them or should judge them because it's all perfectly valid but to be racist/to be hateful in their concerns and words etc and in their intolerances is not acceptable and I don't understand why people who have concerns and worries etc would feel that any 'pc' applied to them anyway because it doesn't in what the term represents so there is no issue, we all self pc ourselves...but it's equally an intolerance in the way that pc is thrown out there as something that's a bad thing and such a negative effect on society to say what is considered 'pc' is not equally moderate views speaking for themselves and assumed some kind of 'appearance' must be the reason and wanting to seem to be saying the right thing, is equally as restrictive ...(on the whole and in general..)...people say what they believe and what their thoughts of without any consideration to a pc....if someone says, no I think that's wrong, they say it because that's what they believe...

it IS 100% true. he hit the nail on the head and until the truth is acknowledged the loony left will become the lib dems and they will be seen for what they have become, all image all style and zero truth zero subtances, ignoring the real politics of the masses...low wages, corporate takeovers, raidcal islamic terrorism, the real intolerant fakes who hate their own country and throw around slander and false accusations like confetti

[LeatherTrumpet]

Originally Posted by Niamh.

Don't tell me what I mean, thanks

it is what you mean tho

[MB.]

Originally Posted by the truth

zero truth

Ah, you're finally changing your username

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

it is what you mean tho

Nope Mystic T, your powers are failing

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by the truth

it IS 100% true. he hit the nail on the head and until the truth is acknowledged the loony left will become the lib dems and they will be seen for what they have become, all image all style and zero truth zero subtances, ignoring the real politics of the masses...low wages, corporate takeovers, raidcal islamic terrorism, the real intolerant fakes who hate their own country and throw around slander and false accusations like confetti

..you say false accusations and yet you falsely group together and generalise what you call a 'looney left' and you just don't see it, the actual truth..whatever our views, that's exactly what they are our own individual views as individual people, no need to label into little boxes and no need for pc either except in the minority cases of extremes who prejudice and there is a need to protect against those prejudices...

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..this isn't true though at all and it's the 'non pc' as it were, throwing a 'pc' out there and doing the exact same thing as is being objected to is the thing...Brexit for instance as you mentioned that..?...I think that it's clear that 'ist' was a factor for some, that's something I've personally experienced so I know it to be true for some but to say it was a factor in voting for all wouldn't be true and maybe only true of a tiny percentage with others and the majority voting Brexit for many reasons...the same with remain voters, immigration and wanting all out open borders wasn't a thing for most either but maybe it was for some/again maybe a tiny percentage...people can't say through PC..?..well yes they can, people can say and they always have been able to, they say their concerns about immigration and no one will judge them or should judge them because it's all perfectly valid but to be racist/to be hateful in their concerns and words etc and in their intolerances is not acceptable and I don't understand why people who have concerns and worries etc would feel that any 'pc' applied to them anyway because it doesn't in what the term represents so there is no issue, we all self pc ourselves...but it's equally an intolerance in the way that pc is thrown out there as something that's a bad thing and such a negative effect on society to say what is considered 'pc' is not equally moderate views speaking for themselves and assumed some kind of 'appearance' must be the reason and wanting to seem to be saying the right thing, is equally as restrictive ...(on the whole and in general..)...people say what they believe and what their thoughts of without any consideration to a pc....if someone says, no I think that's wrong, they say it because that's what they believe...

People did vote for many reasons but there is no doubt that migration was a big part and that and not all those that have concerns on migration are 'bigots' - most aren't, but I think this predictable attempted 'shut-down' of these concerns by some is becoming really tiresome.

I definitely get the feeling that, with one or two posters in particular, there is a belief that to follow current 'thinking' is somehow the educated and therefore superior view to have putting them them in the 'right' and justifiying their dismissive and patronising comments. They need to get over themselves - it's all in their heads.

[Vicky.]

Can those who say that PC is evil and whatnot, give an example of things you would like to be able to say without being called bigots? Things that you think are not bigoted but would be shut down with claims of racist and such? I feel this could help the debate somewhat.

I will start by what I meant in an earlier post, about how I feel sometimes 'PC gone mad' is actually true, without bigotry on behalf of the person saying things. It is 'transphobic' and 'bigoted' to claim males can never become females. And vice versa. It is 'transphobic' to say women get pregnant, or that men have penises. It is 'bigoted' to claim that males do not menstruate. This is utterly mental IMO. And a very good example of what I assume some people mean when they say 'PC gorn maaaaad'. Sometimes that line is uttered by racists/sexists and so on. But often bigot is applied to anyone who does not go along with the current 'liberal' thinking, regardless of how mental said thinking is.

Also yes, sometimes even speaking of immigration is shouted down as racism/xenophobia. I have seen this often. But thats from the extreme left, not 'lefties' in general. Also a lot of it depends on quite how you put your views across. For example saying 'I am concerned about the effects current levels of immigration have on our country' is very different that 'immigrants are taking all of our houses and jobs'.

In short, yes some people do claim things are 'bigotted' or 'phobic' or whatever for nothing. However people claiming this are generally just extremists of left leaning views. Just like how you get extreme right leaning people..

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Yes, I posted this on the other trump thread, but this article explains everything pretty well. I was one of those who wrote off Trump voters as bigots, I will be honest. But this gave me a clearer perspective on it all tbh

http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reason...e-talks-about/

A very interesting read

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Can those who say that PC is evil and whatnot, give an example of things you would like to be able to say without being called bigots? Things that you think are not bigoted but would be shut down with claims of racist and such? I feel this could help the debate somewhat.

I will start by what I meant in an earlier post, about how I feel sometimes 'PC gone mad' is actually true, without bigotry on behalf of the person saying things. It is 'transphobic' and 'bigoted' to claim males can never become females. And vice versa. It is 'transphobic' to say women get pregnant, or that men have penises. It is 'bigoted' to claim that males do not menstruate. This is utterly mental IMO. And a very good example of what I assume some people mean when they say 'PC gorn maaaaad'. Sometimes that line is uttered by racists/sexists and so on. But often bigot is applied to anyone who does not go along with the current 'liberal' thinking, regardless of how mental said thinking is.

Also yes, sometimes even speaking of immigration is shouted down as racism/xenophobia. I have seen this often. But thats from the extreme left, not 'lefties' in general. Also a lot of it depends on quite how you put your views across. For example saying 'I am concerned about the effects current levels of immigration have on our country' is very different that 'immigrants are taking all of our houses and jobs'.

In short, yes some people do claim things are 'bigotted' or 'phobic' or whatever for nothing. However people claiming this are generally just extremists of left leaning views. Just like how you get extreme right leaning people..

...this is exactly what I mean, it's generalising both ways so 'pc' either isn't applicable in the way it's being said or it's applicable to all and so it goes back and forth in its communication, which for me is the real truth and real issue...and I agree also, I don't think anything restricts views (for most people whatever the views of others if they are opposed in thoughts..)...but maybe there are times that those views are either not being conveyed in the best way or are not having enough thought in what's actually being said...and too much generalising...we all generalise at times, but different views and opinions are being pigeon holed and labelled...and 'PC' has just become another label which has lost meaning and become another insult/type thing when it was only ever there as a meaning to protect against extremes...if people have valid reasons for their concerns and worries etc, no matter if not agreed with they would still be understood by most and fair enough etc but when things are just 'thrown out there' with no reasoning and are very negative in appearance then they'll be questioned and receive negativity back at those views...

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Can those who say that PC is evil and whatnot, give an example of things you would like to be able to say without being called bigots? Things that you think are not bigoted but would be shut down with claims of racist and such? I feel this could help the debate somewhat.

I will start by what I meant in an earlier post, about how I feel sometimes 'PC gone mad' is actually true, without bigotry on behalf of the person saying things. It is 'transphobic' and 'bigoted' to claim males can never become females. And vice versa. It is 'transphobic' to say women get pregnant, or that men have penises. It is 'bigoted' to claim that males do not menstruate. This is utterly mental IMO. And a very good example of what I assume some people mean when they say 'PC gorn maaaaad'. Sometimes that line is uttered by racists/sexists and so on. But often bigot is applied to anyone who does not go along with the current 'liberal' thinking, regardless of how mental said thinking is.

Also yes, sometimes even speaking of immigration is shouted down as racism/xenophobia. I have seen this often. But thats from the extreme left, not 'lefties' in general. Also a lot of it depends on quite how you put your views across. For example saying 'I am concerned about the effects current levels of immigration have on our country' is very different that 'immigrants are taking all of our houses and jobs'.

In short, yes some people do claim things are 'bigotted' or 'phobic' or whatever for nothing. However people claiming this are generally just extremists of left leaning views. Just like how you get extreme right leaning people..

It seems to me that the mere mention of concerns about too much immigration and the negative effects this can have on the country are immediately jumped on by some posters who start using words such as bigot, racist etc.

That immediately gets people's backs up and it is often downhill from there. People should be able to debate this massive issue without such nonsense. People will always disagree, but to try to shut down the 'opposition' in this way achieves nothing

[Ammi]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

It seems to me that the mere mention of concerns about too much immigration and the negative effects this can have on the country are immediately jumped on by some posters who start using words such as bigot, racist etc.

That immediately gets people's backs up and it is often downhill from there. People should be able to debate this massive issue without such nonsense. People will always disagree, but to try to shut down the 'opposition' in this way achieves nothing

..and the same with hand wringing/bleeding hearts and those who live in a dreamworld and left loonies etc..(I can't recall all of the labels without finding some threads but I promise you it's very much there...)...and the problem is in seeing one but not seeing the other and it's often pre-empted as well in things like...the loony lefts/bleeding hearts will come in and be saying etc etc..)...in a very hostile way when a 'bleeding heart' hasn't even posted yet...../it's honestly wrong to see one and not the other ....neither should be used and both make the issue an issue and make for 'PC'...(incorrectly to what it is meant to be and that is to protect, which I'm sure that we're all in agreement with, that minority groups who do receive prejudice, should be protected..)...

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

It seems to me that the mere mention of concerns about too much immigration and the negative effects this can have on the country are immediately jumped on by some posters who start using words such as bigot, racist etc.

That immediately gets people's backs up and it is often downhill from there. People should be able to debate this massive issue without such nonsense. People will always disagree, but to try to shut down the 'opposition' in this way achieves nothing

That is a common tried and true tactic used by many on the left to stop any debate being had.They think if they shout racist at you then they've just taken some moral high ground over you and it makes their view more valid somehow.Or they'll do it when they don't have any real logic or facts to counter.The problem is that it dilutes the word and real racism may be overlooked.After years of this people are now finally sick of being accused of being prejudiced for bringing up legitimate issues and the lefties who are perpetuating this are looking more and more ridiculous.

[jet]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

This is a good thing really.

Of course it's a good thing that Trump has gone soft on several issues, and thank goodness for it, but will it be seen as a good thing by those that voted for him and his hateful pledges?

[the truth]

The left need to justify their slander for decades and spin and false accusations, they lied about iraq, they lied about the mrsa in hospitals, they lied about arming rebels, they lied about bankrupting the treasury. They need to apologise to everyone and wise up and realise false accusation and spin were evil temporary tactics than won them cheap votes. now they have been outed. everyone sees through it and if they cannot apologise and simply stop it dead in its tracks. they will always be known as the loony left and they will disappear into a bigger black hole than the lib dems

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..and the same with hand wringing/bleeding hearts and those who live in a dreamworld and left loonies etc..(I can't recall all of the labels without finding some threads but I promise you it's very much there...)...and the problem is in seeing one but not seeing the other and it's often pre-empted as well in things like...the loony lefts/bleeding hearts will come in and be saying etc etc..)...in a very hostile way when a 'bleeding heart' hasn't even posted yet...../it's honestly wrong to see one and not the other ....neither should be used and both make the issue an issue and make for 'PC'...(incorrectly to what it is meant to be and that is to protect, which I'm sure that we're all in agreement with, that minority groups who do receive prejudice, should be protected..)...

Indeed. I can see both sides of this. Not sure if this makes me just unbiased or more 'middle' than I thought Some left leaning people scream racism at anyone voicing concerns. Some right leaning people go the opposite way and blast anyone with a differing opinion as a 'loony lefty' or indeed..bleeding heart. Its ridiculous and people seem to just be able to see one or the other, when I (and you seemingly ammi...) see both.`

This has been a huge issue over the months especially in this section. Selective reading. It should be possible to have a debate without insulting or generalizing everyone. We used to be able to do that here anyway. SD is just a mess recently and it annoys me as this was one of my fave sections of the site, but now its the same repetitive garbage, insults and such over and over again and it is offputting to everyone really.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

Indeed. I can see both sides of this. Not sure if this makes me just unbiased or more 'middle' than I thought Some left leaning people scream racism at anyone voicing concerns. Some right leaning people go the opposite way and blast anyone with a differing opinion as a 'loony lefty' or indeed..bleeding heart. Its ridiculous and people seem to just be able to see one or the other, when I (and you seemingly ammi...) see both.`

This has been a huge issue over the months especially in this section. Selective reading. It should be possible to have a debate without insulting or generalizing everyone. We used to be able to do that here anyway. SD is just a mess recently and it annoys me as this was one of my fave sections of the site, but now its the same repetitive garbage, insults and such over and over again and it is offputting to everyone really.

ONLY left wingers have personally attacked posters in this thread

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Ammi

..and the same with hand wringing/bleeding hearts and those who live in a dreamworld and left loonies etc..(I can't recall all of the labels without finding some threads but I promise you it's very much there...)...and the problem is in seeing one but not seeing the other and it's often pre-empted as well in things like...the loony lefts/bleeding hearts will come in and be saying etc etc..)...in a very hostile way when a 'bleeding heart' hasn't even posted yet...../it's honestly wrong to see one and not the other ....neither should be used and both make the issue an issue and make for 'PC'...(incorrectly to what it is meant to be and that is to protect, which I'm sure that we're all in agreement with, that minority groups who do receive prejudice, should be protected..)...

I don't disagree with what you say but people's definition on who exactly is a minority and the blurred lines on who exactly is being prejudice to whom is a minefield.

When some describe a group as being subject to prejudice, a group who themselves subject another group to prejudice' - things are clearly not as cut and dried as some make out.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by the truth

ONLY left wingers have personally attacked posters in this thread

'can Trump free us all from this insane liberal PC straight jacket' in your OP. Not a personal attack, but still a generalization of 'liberals'. Statements such as this tend to attract attacks back from those you dismissed as 'insane'. And round the circle goes again...

Also I am not sure where I claimed only in this thread. All over serious debates.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I don't disagree with what you say but people's definition on who exactly is a minority and the blurred lines on who exactly is being prejudice to whom is a minefield.

When some describe a group as being subject to prejudice, a group who themselves subject another group to prejudice' - things are clearly not as cut and dried as some make out.

why are there different councils for muslims and gypsies? why does our national tv broadcaster make a show mocking Christ as a drunken pervert , yet when confronted with making a satirical play on Muhammad it pulls the plug for fera of retribution as weve seen across the world. we are cowardly spineless cowards who cow tow and give in to bullies. If you stand for nothing, you fall for anything!

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Brillopad

I don't disagree with what you say but people's definition on who exactly is a minority and the blurred lines on who exactly is being prejudice to whom is a minefield.

When some describe a group as being subject to prejudice, a group who themselves subject another group to prejudice' - things are clearly not as cut and dried as some make out.

I don't really subscribe to this 'which group is a minority' stuff to be quite honest. I tend to find being respectful in general stops (most) accusations of being bigoted. I disagree with the 'left leaning crowd' on here on a fair few issues but I seem to be able to disagree without insulting them. Same as I can disagree with the 'right leaning crowd' without yelling racist or homophobe at them.

Attempts to shut down conversation, especially in the serious debates section is stupid really. Unless someone says something really offensive of course.

[the truth]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

'can Trump free us all from this insane liberal PC straight jacket' in your OP. Not a personal attack, but still a generalization of 'liberals'. Statements such as this tend to attract attacks back from those you dismissed as 'insane'. And round the circle goes again...

Also I am not sure where I claimed only in this thread. All over serious debates.

lol Youre going out of your way now to find offence in something that wasnt even there. It is a liberal straight jacket and your choosing to take offence or feigning to do so is straight from the liberal playbook. wholly transparent and totally ineffective.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Vicky.

'can Trump free us all from this insane liberal PC straight jacket' in your OP. Not a personal attack, but still a generalization of 'liberals'. Statements such as this tend to attract attacks back from those you dismissed as 'insane'. And round the circle goes again...

Also I am not sure where I claimed only in this thread. All over serious debates.

Don't forget this corker-

'This, the ONLY people who cry political correctness are those who are attempting to denigrate a sub section of society and are desperate to make it appealing to another.'

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by the truth

lol Youre going out of your way now to find offence in something that wasnt even there. It is a liberal straight jacket and your choosing to take offence or feigning to do so is straight from the liberal playbook. wholly transparent and totally ineffective.

I am not trying to find offense I am pointing out how its just constant and obviously how a thread opening with a statement like that will immediately get peoples backs up...

[Brillopad]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Don't forget this corker-

'This, the ONLY people who cry political correctness are those who are attempting to denigrate a sub section of society and are desperate to make it appealing to another.'

Corker indeed! The arrogance and closed-mindset is a good example.

[Vicky.]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

Don't forget this corker-

'This, the ONLY people who cry political correctness are those who are attempting to denigrate a sub section of society and are desperate to make it appealing to another.'

...

Would you like me to go through all posts made in this section pointing out which are insulting to many people? I was speaking generally, across this entire board. I thought I made it quite clear in my post that this is not an attack on either 'left' or 'right' and that both sides have people in the wrong