[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I hate having to go back here every once and a while on TiBB but find myself having to again.

There are different types of racism. Institutional racism, and personal racism. Institutional racism has a power element involved and the vast majority of institutional racism is carried out by white people, for obvious reasons, and can only be carried out by a majority population. It is not exclusively white, because it also occurs in non-white majority countries such as Japan, but globally, institutional racism is white.

That does not mean than non whites can't be racist. There is also personal racism, which is between individuals and does not involve any element of power nor oppression. Any form of racial prejudice is personal racism. An individual of any race can be guilty of personal racism. It doesn't even have to involve white people at all - a black man who hates Native Americans is racist. A Japanese woman who can't stand Chinese people is racist. Etc etc.

Also just to pre-empt the usual secondary argument: severity doesnt change the definition of the word either. The fact that historical white-on-black racism is far, far more serious (and institutional racism in general is still more serious) than pockets of personal racism, does not somehow make the word "sacred" or change its definition. "You can't say this is racism because here's some REALLY BAD racism so you need a new word!". It's not logical. Someone who skins a hundred people alive is a mass murderer. That doesn't mean someone who "just" shoots one person between the eyes "can't possibly be a murderer because there are worse examples".

Pointing out the obvious fact that personal racial prejudice - AKA racism - exists in every racial group doesn't take away from the horrors of historical or institutional racism.

well put TS

[smudgie]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I hate having to go back here every once and a while on TiBB but find myself having to again.

There are different types of racism. Institutional racism, and personal racism. Institutional racism has a power element involved and the vast majority of institutional racism is carried out by white people, for obvious reasons, and can only be carried out by a majority population. It is not exclusively white, because it also occurs in non-white majority countries such as Japan, but globally, institutional racism is white.

That does not mean than non whites can't be racist. There is also personal racism, which is between individuals and does not involve any element of power nor oppression. Any form of racial prejudice is personal racism. An individual of any race can be guilty of personal racism. It doesn't even have to involve white people at all - a black man who hates Native Americans is racist. A Japanese woman who can't stand Chinese people is racist. Etc etc.

Also just to pre-empt the usual secondary argument: severity doesnt change the definition of the word either. The fact that historical white-on-black racism is far, far more serious (and institutional racism in general is still more serious) than pockets of personal racism, does not somehow make the word "sacred" or change its definition. "You can't say this is racism because here's some REALLY BAD racism so you need a new word!". It's not logical. Someone who skins a hundred people alive is a mass murderer. That doesn't mean someone who "just" shoots one person between the eyes "can't possibly be a murderer because there are worse examples".

Pointing out the obvious fact that personal racial prejudice - AKA racism - exists in every racial group doesn't take away from the horrors of historical or institutional racism.

Pleased to see you jump back in TS.
I agree on every point.
The young man in the video comes across as a bit of a twit.

[lostalex]

If all white people were racist, black people would still be slaves.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Redway

I stopped reading it when the guy said he'd use his own personal definition of racism. We both know that's not the historical definition.

racism

noun

"Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."

"The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races."

synonyms: racial discrimination, racialism, racial prejudice/bigotry, xenophobia, chauvinism, bigotry, bias, intolerance



The definition of racism is simple, succinct and clear. People altering or adding to "their own definition" of words seems to be a pretty big problem across the board. For example, adding a requirement of power-holding, oppression or even majority to the definition of racism when no such requirement exists, or, it seems, colloquialising the term "institutional racism" down to just "racism" with scant regard for the fact that that word is already in use.

1. White people can be racist. Black people can be racist. Anyone can be racist.

2. There is a long, horrible and dark history of institutional racism against black and other minority ethnic groups, 99% perpetrated by white people in power, that is still a major problem to this day.


These two statements don't conflict. They are both valid, true and important. There's no need to muddy the waters further with vague and incorrectly used terminology.

[Livia]

Poor, underprivileged black man.... who has a place at Cambridge.

Ridiculous dickhead, whatever colour he is.

[Lostie!]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I hate having to go back here every once and a while on TiBB but find myself having to again.

There are different types of racism. Institutional racism, and personal racism. Institutional racism has a power element involved and the vast majority of institutional racism is carried out by white people, for obvious reasons, and can only be carried out by a majority population. It is not exclusively white, because it also occurs in non-white majority countries such as Japan, but globally, institutional racism is white.

That does not mean than non whites can't be racist. There is also personal racism, which is between individuals and does not involve any element of power nor oppression. Any form of racial prejudice is personal racism. An individual of any race can be guilty of personal racism. It doesn't even have to involve white people at all - a black man who hates Native Americans is racist. A Japanese woman who can't stand Chinese people is racist. Etc etc.

Also just to pre-empt the usual secondary argument: severity doesnt change the definition of the word either. The fact that historical white-on-black racism is far, far more serious (and institutional racism in general is still more serious) than pockets of personal racism, does not somehow make the word "sacred" or change its definition. "You can't say this is racism because here's some REALLY BAD racism so you need a new word!". It's not logical. Someone who skins a hundred people alive is a mass murderer. That doesn't mean someone who "just" shoots one person between the eyes "can't possibly be a murderer because there are worse examples".

Pointing out the obvious fact that personal racial prejudice - AKA racism - exists in every racial group doesn't take away from the horrors of historical or institutional racism.

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

racism

noun

"Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."

"The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races."

synonyms: racial discrimination, racialism, racial prejudice/bigotry, xenophobia, chauvinism, bigotry, bias, intolerance



The definition of racism is simple, succinct and clear. People altering or adding to "their own definition" of words seems to be a pretty big problem across the board. For example, adding a requirement of power-holding, oppression or even majority to the definition of racism when no such requirement exists, or, it seems, colloquialising the term "institutional racism" down to just "racism" with scant regard for the fact that that word is already in use.

1. White people can be racist. Black people can be racist. Anyone can be racist.

2. There is a long, horrible and dark history of institutional racism against black and other minority ethnic groups, 99% perpetrated by white people in power, that is still a major problem to this day.


These two statements don't conflict. They are both valid, true and important. There's no need to muddy the waters further with vague and incorrectly used terminology.

[Livia]

Originally Posted by JTM45

It really isn't!

True racism is something that's ingrained in modern society because of the way it came about and the effect it had, and is still having on vast numbers of people today.

White people being discriminated against isn't and never will be 'racism' in the true sense and we will never begin to be able to experience the oppression that black people have and still do. White people have never been a race that has been systematically discriminated against by a different vastly bigger race, enslaved and treated as nothing more than livestock or currency.

Never? White people have NEVER been enslaved? Just that comment alone makes me think I probably shouldn't bother with a reply, but here goes nothing...

I'm white and Jewish. What's the word with me? Can I be racist? Can you be racist to me?

If I said all non-Jews are racist, is that okay? No... if course it's not.

This man is black and he is a racist, no matter how you spin it, no matter who you quote. He. Is. A. Racist.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Livia

Never? White people have NEVER been enslaved? Just that comment alone makes me think I probably shouldn't bother with a reply, but here goes nothing...

I'm white and Jewish. What's the word with me? Can I be racist? Can you be racist to me?

If I said all non-Jews are racist, is that okay? No... if course it's not.

This man is black and he is a racist, no matter how you spin it, no matter who you quote. He. Is. A. Racist.

You ignored the context of the statement.

'White people have never been a race that has been systematically discriminated against by a different vastly bigger race, enslaved and treated as nothing more than livestock or currency.'

As a whole, it's a true statement. White people have never been enslaved by another race simply because they are white. White slavery has pretty much only been a thing when the Vikings and Romans were around and that wasn't the same since it was mostly white people oppressing other white people.

While the statement 'All White people are racist' is stupid, the idea that white people can't be victims of racism in the same way that black people are is very true because racism against black people is systematic and ingrained in both history and society.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

You ignored the context of the statement.

'White people have never been a race that has been systematically discriminated against by a different vastly bigger race, enslaved and treated as nothing more than livestock or currency.'

As a whole, it's a true statement. White people have never been enslaved by another race simply because they are white. White slavery has pretty much only been a thing when the Vikings and Romans were around and that wasn't the same since it was mostly white people oppressing other white people.

While the statement 'All White people are racist' is stupid, the idea that white people can't be victims of racism in the same way that black people are is very true because racism against black people is systematic and ingrained in both history and society.

...in America

[Niamh.]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

I hate having to go back here every once and a while on TiBB but find myself having to again.

There are different types of racism. Institutional racism, and personal racism. Institutional racism has a power element involved and the vast majority of institutional racism is carried out by white people, for obvious reasons, and can only be carried out by a majority population. It is not exclusively white, because it also occurs in non-white majority countries such as Japan, but globally, institutional racism is white.

That does not mean than non whites can't be racist. There is also personal racism, which is between individuals and does not involve any element of power nor oppression. Any form of racial prejudice is personal racism. An individual of any race can be guilty of personal racism. It doesn't even have to involve white people at all - a black man who hates Native Americans is racist. A Japanese woman who can't stand Chinese people is racist. Etc etc.

Also just to pre-empt the usual secondary argument: severity doesnt change the definition of the word either. The fact that historical white-on-black racism is far, far more serious (and institutional racism in general is still more serious) than pockets of personal racism, does not somehow make the word "sacred" or change its definition. "You can't say this is racism because here's some REALLY BAD racism so you need a new word!". It's not logical. Someone who skins a hundred people alive is a mass murderer. That doesn't mean someone who "just" shoots one person between the eyes "can't possibly be a murderer because there are worse examples".

Pointing out the obvious fact that personal racial prejudice - AKA racism - exists in every racial group doesn't take away from the horrors of historical or institutional racism.

Hard to argue with that tbf

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

While the statement 'All White people are racist' is stupid, the idea that white people can't be victims of racism in the same way that black people are is very true because racism against black people is systematic and ingrained in both history and society.

It's almost certainly true that white people can't be victims of racism in the same way that black people are. But at what point does it follow from that statement, that white people therefore can't experience personal racism at all (they can), or that ethnicities other than white can't be guilty of being racist? In fact, a person can be guilty of being racist even if no one at all is being persecuted, victimised, or affected in any way by that person's racism. It's simply beyond the scope of the meaning of the word.

Again I feel like this comes down to the old, and totally illogical and flawed, argument that something "can't be a thing" if there is another, worse, example of the same thing. The idea that no one in the UK is suffering from poverty "because Chinese children are in factories!!". No one in the UK is going hungry "because there are children starving in Africa!".

While there are worse conditions in the world - there are still poor people in the UK.

While there are areas affected by true famine - there are still hungry and malnourished kids in wealthy countries, eating meals but not good ones.

While historical racism is horrendous, institutional racism is still a huge problem, and there are ingrained cultural racism issues towards ethnic minorities... racism and racist attacks on white people do still happen.

It exists. I don't know why people are desperate to pretend otherwise. Again I can only suppose that people have this idea that acknowledging it will somehow "dilute" other problems. Which is nonsense.

[Tom4784]

Originally Posted by Toy Soldier

It's almost certainly true that white people can't be victims of racism in the same way that black people are. But at what point does it follow from that statement, that white people therefore can't experience personal racism at all (they can), or that ethnicities other than white can't be guilty of being racist? In fact, a person can be guilty of being racist even if no one at all is being persecuted, victimised, or affected in any way by that person's racism. It's simply beyond the scope of the meaning of the word.

Again I feel like this comes down to the old, and totally illogical and flawed, argument that something "can't be a thing" if there is another, worse, example of the same thing. The idea that no one in the UK is suffering from poverty "because Chinese children are in factories!!". No one in the UK is going hungry "because there are children starving in Africa!".

While there are worse conditions in the world - there are still poor people in the UK.

While there are areas affected by true famine - there are still hungry and malnourished kids in wealthy countries, eating meals but not good ones.

While historical racism is horrendous, institutional racism is still a huge problem, and there are ingrained cultural racism issues towards ethnic minorities... racism and racist attacks on white people do still happen.

It exists. I don't know why people are desperate to pretend otherwise. Again I can only suppose that people have this idea that acknowledging it will somehow "dilute" other problems. Which is nonsense.

I was talking more from the systematic point of view, I've never disagreed with the fact that any ethnicity can be racist on a personal level.

[user104658]

Originally Posted by Dezzy

I was talking more from the systematic point of view, I've never disagreed with the fact that any ethnicity can be racist on a personal level.

I think it's becoming an issue though, that people are starting to use "racism" as a term specifically meaning institutional / systemic racism and failing to recognise that other forms of racism exist at all (or trying to insist that those forms of racism be termed something else).

I'm not entirely sure what the motivation for doing that is, but the effect of it is pretty clear: confusion, and backlash.

People proclaim proudly and confidently; "Only white people can be racist! Reverse racism isn't a thing! Ethnic minorities cannot be racist!"... which is true only of institutional racism... so, people are hearing this on the one hand but on the other can see quite plainly that racial prejudice in various forms exists across the board and so the important focus - combatting very real inequalities - gets completely lost in an argument that quickly stops making sense.

Basically I find that people then get so caught up in all of that, that it becomes impossible for any progress to be made on the real world issues. In other words... accepting that racism exists across the board, in different ways and to varying degrees, right across the board would actually be BETTER for those suffering the worst of it than vehemently attempting to deny it, which seems to be purely out of pride / incredulity, rather than a desire to see change.

[Redway]

Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet

i am not your mate

Did I say you were?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Redway

Did I say you were?

happy birthday

[Gstar]

White gays are racist though

[bots]

Originally Posted by Germyle

White gays are racist though

thats a rather good point given that they are a minority and therefore can't be

[Marsh.]

Originally Posted by Germyle

White gays are racist though

They're just jealous of your flawless skin tone.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Originally Posted by Germyle

White gays are racist though

and vile heterophobes

#exposethem

[Livia]

A black person saying all whites are racist is just as abhorrent to me as a far-Right bonehead saying black people are inferior/not welcome/some other derogatory statement. It's divisive at a time when we ought to be sticking together.

[Northern Monkey]

People again mixing up institutional racism with just plain old racism.TS is obviously right.I've been saying this for years and so has TS in here.Anyone of any race or creed can be racist.I've experienced it plenty of times in Asian areas as a white person.It happens.

Saying all whites are racist is racist in itself.